Yeah, plus we're talking about a bunch of teenagers here who were on a holiday island, not hardened combat veterans or something. Not very realistic to expect anyone to attempt to disarm him with kung fu, even if that was actually a realistic prospect.Originally Posted by CitizenCain
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
Which doesn't really change my point about A) this being an attempt to intimidate gays, and B) it was not intended to cause maximum damage.
Edit: Looked up the group in question. It was a tiny splinter group from a far-right group. I.E. These people were too extreme even for an extremist far-right group.
Hope is the denial of reality
There's no evidence that it wasn't intended to cause maximum damage. The suspect later admitted his motive was to start a 'race war' - the bombing was part of a series, the others had targeted non-white neighborhoods - in the UK by goading ethnic minorities into some kind of response so that all the white people would vote BNP. Look up David Copeland and the 1999 bombing of the Admiral Duncan in Soho if you want more details.
I think it does undermine your point that white people are somehow off limits for far right extremists. The fact that they'll target gays shows they're already happy to target at least one kind of white if they happen to be the 'wrong kind', so it's not exactly a stretch to think that some among them might happen extend that to other 'wrong kinds' as well, such as those they see as 'race traitors' because of their politics.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
Um, nail bombs can kill plenty of people. Hell, a lot of those suicide bombings during the infatada(s) were essentially nail bombs, and there were plenty of bombings with dozens of people killed. A nail goes real far when it's propelled by 40 pounds of C4, and will even penetrate body armor that lead bullets won't (what with iron/steel being much harder than lead, Kevlar doesn't do much). Really, a claymore mine isn't much different from a "nail bomb" - metal "shrapnel" in front of an explosive that propels it with lethal force. Nails are just cheaper and more readily available than steel ball bearings. Sprinkle some rat poison on a bunch nails (or other available metal "debris") as an anti-coagulant, put a bunch of explosives behind it, and attach a cheap cell phone as a trigger, and you have the type of bomb that's killed thousands of Israelis.
Maybe I'm missing something, but that seems plenty lethal. Perhaps the bomb in question just didn't kill a lot of people because it wasn't piloted into the thickest part of the crowd by a dispensable human, or because it was on a timer, or because Israeli Jews hang out closer together than gay clubbers. Or any other number of reasons, but odds are it was meant to kill. When you want to kill someone with a bomb, you pack it with shrapnel. If you just want to intimidate or destroy property, you pack it with a flammable payload, or just more explosives (for a louder, scarier bang). Fire and/or a large concussive blast are a lot scarier and a lot more damaging to property than a spattering of nails.
Really. Plenty of white extremists kill other white people. "Race traitors" and such. Hell, McVeigh targeted an FBI office packed with middle aged white guys. Generally, when you decide to indiscriminately kill as many people as you can with an explosive, you throw out a lot of rules, like no women or children. Or no white guys.
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
I'm curious to learn where he got the guns (and what kinds of guns he used). Given his occupation the bomb almost seems easy. It's the gun procurement that doesn't seem like an easy feat in a place like Norway.
Now I am getting absolutely furious. It took one and a half hour for the police to show up. Obviously they lacked police boats that could take them into the island. Bloody hell, if there are unarmed youths being killed, then you take whatever you got available. A local's boat, a helicopter or whatever really. This is unacceptable.
Tomorrow is like an empty canvas that extends endlessly, what should I sketch on it?
Read somewhere he had a shotgun registered to his name, so guns aren't impossible to get over there.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Apparently, Norway's got a lot of civilian gun ownership, for Europe anyway. (Hunting rifles and shotguns, mainly.) While automatics are illegal, it's fairly easy to get your hands on AK-47s that have been modified to semi-automatic for civilian use. Given how the Soviet bloc countries flooded the market with them, there's no shortage of supply, and usually restricting fire mode is done in the cheapest way possible to comply with automatic weapon bans. Tends to make it not all that hard to undo. In fact, one country in particular (I wanna say Romania, but am not sure) looking to raise some cash restricted tens of thousands of their AK-47s to semi-auto by blocking the fire mode selector with a welded-on metal bump. Ten minutes with a metal file was all it took to defeat that. For obvious reasons, that particular AK variant is highly sought after and rather expensive, but honestly, most of millions of AK-47's in circulation were manufactured for the military, so they've got all the makings of an automatic weapon. Not like trying to convert an AR-15 to full auto, where you need a forged metal piece that just isn't available on the civilian market.
Most civilian AK's are a little bit more difficult to modify to full auto, but usually not a whole lot - all kinds of instructions on the internet on how to do it, if you can't figure it out yourself by dissembling the thing, which most gun owners can.
I doubt it would have mattered whether the police took 5 minutes, or 5 hours. The shooter was probably done in a matter of minutes. Does seem to illustrate why it's a bad idea to rely the police for protection, and maybe a better idea not to prevent law-abiding folks from protecting themselves, if you ask me.
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
Fair points about the weapons.
Though it sounds like he actually had quite a bit of time to hunt people on the island.
Though these kinds of crises often open-up all sorts of operational missteps and should-haves that make people feel awful later.
He seems to have hunted them around the island for a long time. There were a lot more than 90 kids on that island!
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
We just got info that he sent a 1516 pages manifest to a Finnish party member, explaining in detail his youth, how to plan a terrorist attack, how a revolution should work etc. I could probably link the file if anyone is interested.
Content:
1. The rise of cultural Marxism/multiculturalism in Western Europe
2. Why the Islamic colonization and Islamisation of Western Europe began
3. The current state of the Western European Resistance Movements (anti-Marxist/anti-Jihad movements)
4. Solutions for Western Europe and how we, the resistance, should move forward in the coming decades
5. + Covering all, highly relevant topics including solutions and strategies for all of the 8 different political fronts
Edit: Seems he has dedicated an own section for descriptions of his closest friends. Individually. That kinda burns.
Tomorrow is like an empty canvas that extends endlessly, what should I sketch on it?
"Tomorrow we will show the world that Norway's democracy grows stronger when it is challenged … and that the answer to violence is even more democracy, even more humanity, but never naïveté."
Now that burns
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Stoltenberg seems to be handling fine. I can't even begin to express the mental stress this must cause him. As the victims were all members of the youth organ of his own party, he knew a lot of them and also a lot of their parents. He has already got in touch with the victims firsthand to offer his comfort and condolences. Here's an image I found strong.
Edit: Reading his diary, I've gotten a few answers to the questions in this thread. First about the weapons. He tried to travel to Prague and make contact with drug dealers, as they would also get weapons from their couriers. He found out, however, that it became too difficult. So instead he got one legally, more specifically a semi automatic rifle and a glock. He described how he had the hunter's course, and had owned some kind of powerful rifle for 7 years without incident, which would make it easier for him to get his request accepted.
I have now sent an application for a Ruger Mini 14 semi-automatic rifle (5.56). It is the most “army like” rifle allowed in Norway, although it is considered a “poor man’s” AR-15. I envy our European American brothers as the gun laws in Europe sucks ass in comparison. However, the EUSSR borders to Turkey and the Middle East so acquiring illegal arms isn’t exactly rocket science providing you are motivated enough. In any case; I would rather have preferred a Ruger Mini 30, but I already own a 7.62 bolt rifle and it is likely that the police wouldn’t grant me a similar caliber. On the application form I stated: “hunting deer”. It would have been tempting to just write the truth; “executing category A and B cultural Marxists/multiculturalist traitors” just to see their reaction:P
Last edited by Kazuha Vinland; 07-23-2011 at 10:12 PM.
Tomorrow is like an empty canvas that extends endlessly, what should I sketch on it?
From that quote, he doesn't sound particularly crazy. It's not clear what he thought killing these people would accomplish though.
Hope is the denial of reality
Nope, perfectly sane. Let's invite him over for tea and cakes and let him look after our small children.It would have been tempting to just write the truth; “executing category A and B cultural Marxists/multiculturalist traitors” just to see their reaction:P
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
So, anyway, this is this chaps manifesto.
http://www.sharepdfbooks.com/3TZOU0V...dence.pdf.html <- 10mb PDF
Apparently, he has some problems with Islam being a violent religion.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
I encourage everyone to read extracts of it. This is the most fucked up thing I've ever been into. His dedication, knowledge, planning and initiative is like an evil mastermind multiplied by a thousand.
Tomorrow is like an empty canvas that extends endlessly, what should I sketch on it?
As a fellow child hater, I heartily endorse this idea.
Anyone who writes 1576 pages for non-commercial reasons is utterly insane, a Ph.D. candidate, or most often, both.
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.
I've read about 200 pages of it now. I can explain his motives, approach and what not now. Do not underestimate this guy. He is extremely intelligent and rhetorically, he, not unlike Hitler, makes A LOT of points that can encourage people into believing he actually did the right thing. The complexity of it all is simply mind-blowing. Those 1500 pages are NOT random. They are all part of one incredibly organized scheme, believe it or not. Now I'm tired, so I'll come back tomorrow for details.
Tomorrow is like an empty canvas that extends endlessly, what should I sketch on it?
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
It's probably shocking for Norway, to realize that "home grown terrorists" are among them. That white, educated, Christian fundamental Norwegians could be the enemy....not just those brown immigrants, from other nations, practicing other religions such as Islam.
I'm not sure what this guy in custody (who apparently wrote what sounds like a white supremist, racial purity manifesto) thinks he accomplished by shooting up a bunch of fellow Norwegian kids at camp. Or bombing Oslo gov't offices almost as a distraction (if he was involved in that, too) so he could practically hunt down teenagers learning about civics and government.
If anything, he brought attention to the dangers of his anti-diversity, fundie hatred.
It seems he thought he would start some kind of revolution. And, as we all know, there are people out there who become drawn to this stuff.
Of course he will fail. But it seems he wanted to literally end the next generation of left-wing politicians.
Actually, the terrorist attack was more of an attention pin for his document. He described how if Muslims were allowed to keep breeding in Europe, their nature would cause an endless means of violent riots. Hence it was just a matter of time before the governments and the people would have had enough, and arrived at the same conclusion as his about that they needed to be sent out or exterminated. For this purpose, he would try to lead forth a revolution. He would fight the Labour parties and others which supported "politically correct" views, where multiculturalism is a central part. Furthermore he provided an example of how what he did was actually a sacrifice for all of us. He explained that if a boat was on fire, he would have had to try and extinguish it even if he did not feel comfortable about it. It was one of those things, were his country was heading for certain downfall, that he tried to prevent. Moreover he said that if the crew on that boat had been affected by a virus that made them try to stop him, he would still have to try and put out the fire in order to save them all.
In advance of this terrorist act, he had spent 2 months, actively day by day for four consecutive hours inviting nationalists to a group he had established on Facebook. Many thousands of people. It was all to collect their E-mails, so that he could help spread his message in the end.
And the bomb was not just a common fertilizer kind. He described at least 4 different substances; ANFA, ANALFA, DDNP (?) and another one. The way he in detail described how he made an order on Ebay from China, Poland, England etc. for chemicals was flat out insane. He had a cover story for each order, to make sure he would have an alibi if he was put under suspicion. The gun he could acquire because he had taken a hunting course and owned a rifle for 7 years without incident. He knew all kinds of stuff, also how long he would have to participate in a shooting club to get a permit for a glock gun.
What bothers me is how incredibly knowledgeable this guy was in terms of ideologies, history, statistics, weaponry and military planning. He also seemed to have a great grasp on psycho analysis, manipulating the people around him. He wrote on right extremist websites to promote cooperation with larger parties, he went through Serbia and Prague to get connections within drug networks as they would also be able to provide him with arms (he thought, yet he failed to do it this way).
This is really just 1/100th of what he did. To prepare his body and peak his esteem he said, he took steroids and proteins to gain muscle and weight. He systematically lost contact with his friends over a 4 year period. He raised 700 000$ to fund his mission, with calculated budgets for each of the numerous phases of his plan. After having moved back to his mother to save money on renting, he then bought properties so that he could work anonymously.
All this and a lot more was recorded throughout in his diary / manifest with the most extreme consistency I've ever witnessed. He started writing on it in 2006, and had already started the planning before that. What a nutcase.
Tomorrow is like an empty canvas that extends endlessly, what should I sketch on it?
By "literally" do you mean shooting down a bunch of teens on a civil service/government field trip, because they may have been related or connected to the government/officials in Oslo? That's even crazier than thinking his actions would start some kind of revolution.
It's an annual camp/conference for young social democrats. Many of Norway's social democratic politicians attended that camp as youths. The prime minister included. It's not particularly crazy, these are politically involved youngsters who're being trained to become politicians. Many of them are, in fact, the next generation of Norwegian social democratic politicians.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
But it sounds "crazy" if he believed he could literally end the next generation of left-wing politicians, by mowing down teenaged 'political' campers.
They're not "political", they're political. This is part camp part conference. It's run by a political party. They're politically active kids. They become politically active youths, then turn into politically active adults who send their kids to social democrat wonderland. There are many elements of crazy in this matter, but he did pick a suitable target for his disgusting plan. Of course, these are the sort of people that are traditionally strengthened by adversity (though the parents may be less inclined to send them off to this sort of thing now).
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Nothing there screams nutcase to me. It seems that he thinks of himself as a revolutionary and was willing to sacrifice everything for his goal, which he was able to articulate quite clearly. It just so happens that most reasonable people would find his methods deplorable. But if you're going to call him crazy, you're going to have to do the same for just about every revolutionary group.
Hope is the denial of reality
Obsessive, terrible, but not psychotic or sociopathic. Bit of a shame. If Norways legal system is anything like Sweden's, he could be stuck in a forensic psychiatry ward for a very long time rather than in a prison where he'd probably be worshipped for a decade.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
The NY Times has some experts comparing the guy to Bin Laden. Seems like a pretty apt comparison to me.
The maximum prison sentence in Norway is 21 years.I really don't see how anyone can claim the guy is mentally ill.
Hope is the denial of reality
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
