Don't Ask, Don't Tell

[rumrunner]

Seeing that "Don't ask, don't tell" was an end-around on the ban on homosexuals in the military. It didn't repeal the ban, it made it illegal for anyone to investigate your sexuality, or for homosexuals to "come out" while serving. Knowing this, repealing the policy would open the door for witch hunts.

[GGT]

I think they're looking to go beyond just repealing don't ask, don't tell, so gays can serve without having to keep 'secrets'.

Funny how no one mentions lesbians in the military....

[Being]

I think they're looking to go beyond just repealing don't ask, don't tell, so gays can serve without having to keep 'secrets'.

Funny how no one mentions lesbians in the military....

Colonel North did last night. So did Carl Rove.

[rumrunner]

I don't care who anyone else is screwing, if it's not me, my wife, or my kid, it's not my business. If they're willing to make the sacrifice with honor and dignity, they deserve the respect and support of their nation. The inexplicable fear of "The gays" makes little to no sense to me. Any homophobes out there who can shed some light on the subject?

[GGT]

Colonel North did last night. So did Carl Rove.

Saw that skit, was quite funny.

[X900BTA]

You can have the will to walk on ceilings but it's not going to happen. But seriously, many of our decisions are dictated by our society which inevitably means dictated by the parents we chose.

I disagree. Free will is just that, and whether you have proclivity for this or that because of upbringing, you still have free will. You have options and the ability to pursue them.

[EyeKhan]

That's a rather dim view of consciousness. There's certainly a difference between free will and genetic programming in my view. In the long term we may bow to our genes and programming and procreate, but all the decisions about how to raise a child come from consciousness. What is the cause/effect of the universe which means we have no free will?

Where do your thoughts come from? Do you create them out of nothing at all? True spontaneous cause-free action in a universe where everything (else)has a cause? Or are your thoughts and actions all the result of umpteen causes cascading down from the Big Bang until this very moment? The latter is almost certainly the truth.

And as far as dim is concerned, it's not bright or dim, it just is.

[X900BTA]

Where do your thoughts come from? Do you create them out of nothing at all? True spontaneous cause-free action in a universe where everything (else)has a cause? Or are your thoughts and actions all the result of umpteen causes cascading down from the Big Bang until this very moment? The latter is almost certainly the truth.

And as far as dim is concerned, it's not bright or dim, it just is.

Tendency based on experience =! lack of free will. Cause and effect are barely even related to free will, btw.

[EyeKhan]

Tendency based on experience =! lack of free will. Cause and effect are barely even related to free will, btw.

I beg to differ - the fact that the universe and everything in it operates on the bases of cause/effect means that nothing you do or think or feel is uncaused. You might feel like you have free will and it may be impossible to pin down all the variety of causes - from genetics, to circumstance, to past experience - but they are there. You don't will some action out of nothing. That's impossible.

[Being]

You don't will some action out of nothing. That's impossible.

That's because there is no power in will, not because there is nothing for it to act on.

[X900BTA]

I beg to differ - the fact that the universe and everything in it operates on the bases of cause/effect means that nothing you do or think or feel is uncaused. You might feel like you have free will and it may be impossible to pin down all the variety of causes - from genetics, to circumstance, to past experience - but they are there. You don't will some action out of nothing. That's impossible.

So there's a God after all. Thanks for clearing it up

[Being]

So there's a God after all. Thanks for clearing it up

There are many Gods.

[EyeKhan]

So there's a God after all. Thanks for clearing it up

On the contrary, Faith in God implies the existance of free will. Afterall, isn't that why God insists on faith, so that we would have to choose to worship him or not?

[EyeKhan]

There are many Gods.

Many and none.

[Being]

Many and none.

I find it difficult forcing myself to refute an icon such as yourself but, there is either many Gods or there is none.

[EyeKhan]

I find it difficult forcing myself to refute an icon such as yourself but, there is either many Gods or there is none.

There are many gods that humanity has invented and in that sense, you have a multitude. But in terms of a real and actual personal god that takes interest in humanity? Nada.

[Being]

There are many gods that humanity has invented and in that sense, you have a multitude. But in terms of a real and actual personal god that takes interest in humanity? Nada.

Isn't that what I said?

[rumrunner]

The one thing you all assume is that will is a conscious act. It can be, but is not always so. In fact, true free will is free of any consciuos effort at all. unless you're combining will and desire into a single experience.

[aoshi]

If there's a gay guy in your squad and he happens to be attracted to you... You think that breaks up the unit? I think he'd be more likely to save your ass when things get dangerous.

[Being]

If there's a gay guy in your squad and he happens to be attracted to you... You think that breaks up the unit? I think he'd be more likely to save your ass when things get dangerous.

Because he wants it while it's alive?

[EyeKhan]

Isn't that what I said?

I don't know. That's what I meant with many and none.

[EyeKhan]

The one thing you all assume is that will is a conscious act. It can be, but is not always so. In fact, true free will is free of any consciuos effort at all. unless you're combining will and desire into a single experience.

We spend most of our lives on what amounts to auto-pilot. When we do seem to make a decision, perform a conscious act, its pre-determined by a multitude of causes.

[Being]

I don't know. That's what I meant with many and none.

Many or none.

[EyeKhan]

Many or none.

Yeah, that. Depending on what you believe.

[Being]

Yeah, that. Depending on what you believe.

Well, when I tell people I believe I am God they look at me with a strange expression on their face while slowly backing away from me. What's up with that?

[EyeKhan]

Well, when I tell people I believe I am God they look at me with a strange expression on their face while slowly backing away from me. What's up with that?

Solopsist. Been there. Nessus still accuses me. Bitch.

[X900BTA]

On the contrary, Faith in God implies the existance of free will. Afterall, isn't that why God insists on faith, so that we would have to choose to worship him or not?

You fell into my trap! "It's a trap!"

[rumrunner]

We spend most of our lives on what amounts to auto-pilot. When we do seem to make a decision, perform a conscious act, its pre-determined by a multitude of causes.

Our options, or the options we see, may be predetermined. But our choices are ours alone. Often on autopilot I agree, so the path of least resistance is the most common choice.

[LittleFuzzy]

in a universe where everything (else)has a cause?.

Uh, is that actually true? I thought quantum physics had started to dispute that, over the last 10-20 years.

[EyeKhan]

You fell into my trap! "It's a trap!"

What's the trap? God as human myth knows it, doesn't exist.

Our options, or the options we see, may be predetermined. But our choices are ours alone. Often on autopilot I agree, so the path of least resistance is the most common choice.

You seriously believe you make decisions independant of cause? Your decisions just pop into your head from nothing? Your mind defies the laws of thermodynamics themselves?