Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 102

Thread: FEMA

  1. #61
    Where you're focused on the "mandate" of federal taxes, or which agency's coffer they fill....I'm focused on the probability that NO state can cover their own costs of disasters. And what would the rest of our nation supposedly do, sit around and watch devastation and destruction, and donate to the Red Cross?

    Sorry, I don't find that feasible or up to snuff for a first world nation like the US. No way Vermont can fix it on their own, or Texas as it continues to burn. I posted some pics from PA's last 2 days of flooding in GC. Seriously, without federal help, please explain how all this damage can be repaired, if states were "on their own".

  2. #62
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bottom of a bottle, on top of a woman
    Posts
    3,423
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    I'm focused on the probability that NO state can cover their own costs of disasters.
    Sure you are. In any event, I'm sure that the federal government taking a third of every "state's" money has no impact on the ability of states to insure their individual citizenry against natural disasters.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Where you're focused on the "mandate" of federal taxes, or which agency's coffer they fill....I'm focused on the probability that NO state can cover their own costs of disasters. And what would the rest of our nation supposedly do, sit around and watch devastation and destruction, and donate to the Red Cross?

    Sorry, I don't find that feasible or up to snuff for a first world nation like the US. No way Vermont can fix it on their own, or Texas as it continues to burn. I posted some pics from PA's last 2 days of flooding in GC. Seriously, without federal help, please explain how all this damage can be repaired, if states were "on their own".
    What do you, exactly, think FEMA does? Their annual budget is about 6 billion dollars. The estimated damage for Hurricane Katrina alone was well over 100 billion dollars.

    Do you want to know how the Gulf was rebuilt? Much of it was through people donating their time, their money, and their labor to make it happen. I spent a week in Pascagoula mudding out houses there that were damaged by the storm surge. I worked alongside hundreds of other volunteers.

    We showered and cleaned off at one of the many Red Cross stations there, and had our clothes washed in specialized RV's donated by Tide. We used supplies donated by churches, local businesses, and other charity groups. Private individual donations for Katrina amounted to something like 5 billion dollars, and that's just counting their monetary contributions.

    Now, to be fair Congress did allocate something like 60 billion dollars, with about half of that going to subsidize housing for people living there. Let's just let that sink in for a second. The government was, and is subsidizing housing in areas prone to flooding, hurricanes, and storm surges, and then when the inevitable occurs and storm surges, floods, and hurricanes happen they go back and pay people to live there and subsidize their housing/rebuilding costs and living expenses. I know you think it's preposterous that people take responsibility for their choices, but you don't see any problem with this?

    I think we can all just thank glod that those federally funded and maintained levees held, eh?

  4. #64
    That's great you volunteered your time. I'm certainly not discounting the value of volunteers, charity, or church groups. Pretty sure that kind of help would show up at any disaster, even if the government "paid" for every cent of recovery and rebuilding.

    FEMA isn't just a national disaster insurance policy, though. They're already operating in the red, and we know that. FEMA didn't just "subsidize" housing after Katrina (which meant those formaldehyde tainted campers, a terrible substandard btw) but also relocating thousands of people to other states. Mostly where they had family to take them in, and start a new life.

    The handling of Katrina exposed mismanagement and bad planning from the federal government, we know that, too. In hindsight. But it also exposed how unprepared and uncoordinated things were at the local level, especially New Orleans. I know the tired old argument that they relied too heavily on the feds, but that doesn't pass the smell test. Every single urban center, especially those in hurricane/flood zones, and especially those at important seaports transporting food, oil cargo, or with oil refineries....has known for decades the importance of disaster planning. (No excuses for Mayor Nagin, N.O. police or their shamefully inept "plans". We already exhausted that ages ago, and I don't feel like re-hashing it again.)

    Anyway, that local level is part of any "responsibility for choices". Zoning ordinances, temporary bans, city planning, civil engineering, disaster preparedness. Of course that's not preposterous! I'm not convinced you can blame the federal gov't for what a local or state gov't could have/should have done themselves, though. Like allowing mobile homes in tornado alley, new business built at river's edge, homes built downhill from known mud slide areas...or not instituting strict no-burn bans during droughts.

    The dilemma is that so much of our commerce and trade happens in areas prone to floods, storms, earthquakes, tornadoes, blizzards, drought, fire....etc. Can't just relocate all of N.O. even though they're below sea level. Can't move Chicago, LA, San Diego, St. Louis, Miami, etc. There's a reason we've built up cities close to our coasts and major rivers, with roads, bridges and train trestles connecting people to work and home.

    I've said this so many times before, but there is no "safe place" in the US that can't see a disaster. Natural or man-made. It would be great if our infrastructure was A-one top notch, including levees and dams. But they're not. Because that costs MONEY and *the horror!* tax dollars. And the US has become more concerned about skin-flint cheap-skating at all levels, instead of building or re-building high quality infrastructure at any level. It's pathetic.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    [snip]

    Now, to be fair Congress did allocate something like 60 billion dollars, with about half of that going to subsidize housing for people living there. Let's just let that sink in for a second. The government was, and is subsidizing housing in areas prone to flooding, hurricanes, and storm surges, and then when the inevitable occurs and storm surges, floods, and hurricanes happen they go back and pay people to live there and subsidize their housing/rebuilding costs and living expenses. I know you think it's preposterous that people take responsibility for their choices, but you don't see any problem with this?

    I think we can all just thank glod that those federally funded and maintained levees held, eh?


    Interesting article about re-insurance, how it influences insurance, and peoples' decisions to rebuild after an "event" (including terrorism):

    from page 4

    ....“Faktor K,” for “Kultur”: the culture factor. Losses from Hurricanes Katrina, Rita, and Wilma had been much higher than expected in ways the existing windstorm models hadn’t predicted, and it wasn’t because they were far off on wind velocities.

    The problem had to do more with how people on the Gulf Coast were assessing windstorm risk as a group. Mangrove swamps on the Louisiana coast had been cut down and used as fertilizer, stripping away a barrier that could have sapped the storm of some of its energy. Levees were underbuilt, not overbuilt. Reinsurers and modeling firms had focused on technology and the natural sciences; they were missing lessons from economists and social scientists. “We can’t just add another bell and whistle to the model,” says Bresch, “It’s about how societies tolerate risk.”

    “We approach a lot of things as much as we can from the point of statistics and hard data,” says David Smith, head of model development for Eqecat, a natural hazards modeling firm. “It’s not the perfect expression.” The discrepancy between the loss his firm modeled for Katrina and the ultimate claims-based loss number for his clients was the largest Smith had seen. Like others in the industry, Eqecat had failed to anticipate the extent of levee failure. Construction quality in the Gulf states before Katrina was poorer than anticipated, and Eqecat was surprised by a surge in demand after the storm that inflated prices for labor and materials to rebuild. Smith recognizes that these are questions for sociologists and economists as well as engineers, and he consults with the softer sciences to get his models right. But his own market has its demands, too. “The more we can base the model on empirical data,” he says, “the more defendable it is.”

    After their walk around the lake in 2005, Swiss Re’s Bresch and Schraft began meeting with social scientists and laying out two goals. First, they wanted to better understand the culture factor and, ultimately, the risks they were underwriting. Second, they wanted to use that understanding to help the insured prevent losses before they had to be paid for.

    The business of insurers and reinsurers rests on balancing a risk between two extremes. If the risk isn’t probable enough, or the potential loss isn’t expensive enough, there’s no reason for anyone to buy insurance for it. If it’s too probable and the loss too expensive, the premium will be unaffordable. This is bad for both the insured and the insurer. So the insurance industry has an interest in what it calls “loss mitigation.” It encourages potential customers to keep their property from being destroyed in the first place. If Swiss Re is trying to affect the behavior of the property owners it underwrites, it’s sending a signal: Some behavior is so risky that it’s hard to price. Keep it up, and you’ll have no insurance and we’ll have no business. That’s bad for everyone.
    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...-09012011.html


    That's another way to look at those federally funded and maintained levees (that failed)---and who's in that circle of "responsibility"---certainly it's more than just homebuilders or homeowners, or federal government.

    In a perfect world, our private and public entities would work together on any project. Before AND after any "event". Army Corps of Engineers, construction and material experts, economists, engineers, government officials, environmental/geological experts, city planners, 'soft science' behaviorists, insurers/re-insurers and risk analysts. But that would take cooperation, time....and even layers of bureaucracy, that everyone loves to hate. It would make building and infrastructure projects more expensive, at a time when TAXES are considered teh evil, and public spending is being slashed.

    It takes political will to fund research into earthquake/hurricane/tornado/fire proof structures, cluster communities, emergency response teams....or institute zoning ordinances and restrictive laws, that people also love to hate.

  6. #66
    Hey Enoch, you'll get a kick out of this article. Who says self-reliance is dead? Or that people are so spoiled they sit around and whine for federal assistance?

    Still, they're going to have to replace the washed out roads in Vermont. I don't think they all expect to be isolated survivalists once the winter snow comes....

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/12/us...vermont&st=cse

  7. #67
    Necro bump

    This thread got sidetracked (or hijacked) a year ago, but remains a central issue. FEMA still up for debate/discussion.

    Gov. Christie (NJ) is 'inviting' The Army Corps of Engineers to conduct studies and make recommendations for the Jersey Shore rebuilding effort. Gov. Cuomo (NY) has stated publicly that One hundred year events are now happening every two years, suggesting that we're in the midst of an Amsterdam moment.

    POTUS candidates have distinct differences in ideology. Romney/Ryan would prefer to cut FEMA 40% (possibly defund it altogether??), have states responsible for their own disaster relief and rebuilding infrastructure, and even better if done by the private sector. IMO that's a recipe for a different kind of disaster: states beholden to corporate interests, and a nation that no longer acts like a Union.

    What do you think?

  8. #68
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    Serious question: What did we do before FEMA?
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  9. #69

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Serious question: What did we do before FEMA?
    if you believe wikipedia, pretty much the same, but slower and it bounced between different agencies. DoH, RFC, Congress in 1803.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal...agement_Agency

    Edit: GGT got it first
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  11. #71
    Kinda like asking what we did before telephones, or 911 for emergencies.


    edit: Regarding phones....it's impressive that Emergency declarations are robo-called to my phone. Alerts from the school superintendent about school closings, calls from County about road closings and Disaster evacuations....

    But it rather fell apart with the loss of electricity, substations down, grid outages for days at a time. People without a car to charge their cell phones were left in the dark, and it wasn't like they could walk to a wi-fi area or some place to plug in.

  12. #72
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Kinda like asking what we did before telephones, or 911 for emergencies.
    Hmmmm...You can't Professionalize until you Federalize???
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Hmmmm...You can't Professionalize until you Federalize???
    I have no idea what you mean by that.

  14. #74
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    It's what some teat in Congress said about the TSA. In that I had to be union and federally controlled in order for it to work.
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  15. #75
    Veldan, do you know our history of "federalizing" access to utilities like electricity and phone service, and creating what's now a national grid? Rural America wasn't able to afford those expansions without federal interventions and subsidies first.

    It's strange to realize that I'm among the first generation who never had to worry about electricity and phone lines...let alone public roads, or septic sewerage or fresh drinking water.

    My ex father-in-law (same age as my own parents) was raised in rural Alabama. Poor farmers, lots of kids. They used cisterns for their "grey water" and manual pumps for their drinking water, wells dug by hand. One hot bath a week, on Sunday before church, using sibling's bath water until it got cold, re-heating water on cast iron wood stoves. Outhouses for their toilets, holes dug by hand. Walking a few miles to listen to the first radio at the only house that had electricity.

    *Remember, transistor radios and small battery power was still "new" at that time. It took a World War for that technology to become commonplace. *

    That man was nice enough to turn up the volume, so people could hear beyond open porch windows. His first physical exam by a "real doctor" came when he enlisted in the Army. Also his first dental exam, first vaccinations, and first Aspirin.

    That was just one generation ago. It took federal intervention to get electric lines, phone lines, and even paved roads into those poor, rural areas. I figured a Maine guy would know this stuff.
    Last edited by GGT; 11-01-2012 at 05:44 PM.

  16. #76
    As we all know, Hurricane Sandy supports higher marginal tax rates. It struck high-tax NY just to express its love of high taxes.

  17. #77
    Glad to see our forum Manhattanite has access to the intarwebs again.

  18. #78
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    Wow, can you ever stay on a specific topic? (not talking about yer respond to dread's post)
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Wow, can you ever stay on a specific topic? (not talking about yer respond to dread's post)
    I am staying on topic. Federal spending. Building national infrastructure, connecting poorer states with wealthier ones. Civil Engineering, Disaster planning, and emergency relief. Things single states can't afford on their own.

  20. #80
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    No, we were talking about FEMA. Not every federal project/program out there.


    Caveat: I don't nessicarily disagree with FEMA's mandate, just pointing that just making something Federal dose not always make it better.
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  21. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    No, we were talking about FEMA. Not every federal project/program out there.

    Caveat: I don't nessicarily disagree with FEMA's mandate, just pointing that just making something Federal dose not always make it better.
    Those infrastructure projects -- utilities, electric and phone grids, roads and tunnels, water/sewerage, etc -- used civil engineers and federal funding to connect our states and build a great big nation. That means disaster planning and relief should also be coordinated/connected nationally, using federal funds. But also NGOs like Red Cross in the short term or Habitat for Humanity in the long term. There are just some things that require centralized planning in a big country like ours. Turns out to be more efficient than previous piece-meal congressional reactions after the disaster has already happened. Hence, FEMA.

    Just because something is Federal (or governmental) doesn't mean it's bad.

  22. #82
    The history of NYC is pretty interesting. Apparently a big blizzard in late 1800's took down the important overhead electric wires, cutting off local and interstate commerce and trading. The melting snow led to flooding, making matters worse. It affected the entire national economy, and required some kind of intervention. That was the inspiration for burying utilities and transportation into subterranean tunnels. Quite controversial at the time, because of the massive costs in engineering and labor.

    Back then the biggest obstacles were snow and ice, not rising tides or hurricane flooding. None of the experts planned on the ocean crashing in and flooding subway tunnels...because it had never happened before.

  23. #83
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,435
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Gov. Christie (NJ) is 'inviting' The Army Corps of Engineers to conduct studies and make recommendations for the Jersey Shore rebuilding effort. Gov. Cuomo (NY) has stated publicly that One hundred year events are now happening every two years, suggesting that we're in the midst of an Amsterdam moment.
    ?
    What's an Amsterdam moment?
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Hmmmm...You can't Professionalize until you Federalize???
    Well, at a quick glance it sounds sensible to make disaster relief federal not local - the whole point of it is that a disaster is too big for local government to handle, so you use resources from the entire nation, right?
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  24. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Well, at a quick glance it sounds sensible to make disaster relief federal not local - the whole point of it is that a disaster is too big for local government to handle, so you use resources from the entire nation, right?
    Resources yes. But those resources would still be there in any new set-up, the money would end up allocated to the states in block grants. Management and coordination of relief would be done by state agencies interacting with each other directly rather than through a federal intermediary. Romney's position isn't just a matter of picking budgetary bones, it's also a reflection of his experiences as a governor trying to deal with FEMA on Massachussetts' behalf. State officials involved in disaster relief *which pretty much always includes the governor* are rarely enamored with how FEMA does things. The question we have to ask and can't effectively answer, is whether these issues predominantly arise because of local parochial attitudes getting in the way of greater federal experience or whether the more centralized and remote organization is trying to crack eggshells with sledgehammers and not being sufficiently adaptive to local conditions.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  25. #85
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Those infrastructure projects -- utilities, electric and phone grids, roads and tunnels, water/sewerage, etc -- used civil engineers and federal funding to connect our states and build a great big nation. That means disaster planning and relief should also be coordinated/connected nationally, using federal funds. But also NGOs like Red Cross in the short term or Habitat for Humanity in the long term. There are just some things that require centralized planning in a big country like ours. Turns out to be more efficient than previous piece-meal congressional reactions after the disaster has already happened. Hence, FEMA.

    Just because something is Federal (or governmental) doesn't mean it's bad.
    Again I can say that some Federal is good. Can you say the opposite?
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  26. #86
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,435
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Resources yes. But those resources would still be there in any new set-up, the money would end up allocated to the states in block grants. Management and coordination of relief would be done by state agencies interacting with each other directly rather than through a federal intermediary. Romney's position isn't just a matter of picking budgetary bones, it's also a reflection of his experiences as a governor trying to deal with FEMA on Massachussetts' behalf. State officials involved in disaster relief *which pretty much always includes the governor* are rarely enamored with how FEMA does things. The question we have to ask and can't effectively answer, is whether these issues predominantly arise because of local parochial attitudes getting in the way of greater federal experience or whether the more centralized and remote organization is trying to crack eggshells with sledgehammers and not being sufficiently adaptive to local conditions.
    Thanks I don't really know how FEMA works, exactly, and I'm sure a lot can be improved. I would think that generally speaking federal would be preferable, various state agencies interacting with each other sounds like it would cause all kinds of what you call local parochial attitudes, bureaucracy, and turf wars - then again, FEMA can have that too. I do see issues with getting help from other states, as opposed to one federal 'boss' simply allocating federal resources. I mean, wouldn't there be the issue of different states helping out, and some preferring not to help and keeping the grants to themselves rather than spending it? I like to think that in disaster situations they would not care about that, but OTOH my faith in American politics isn;t too high
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  27. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    What's an Amsterdam moment?
    I would like to know that too, Google couldn't help me.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  28. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
    I would like to know that too, Google couldn't help me.
    The 1953 flooding that gave rise to the deltaworks.


    Its a suggestion that the new england region needs to bite the bullet and protect its shoreline.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  29. #89
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,435
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    The 1953 flooding that gave rise to the deltaworks.


    Its a suggestion that the new england region needs to bite the bullet and protect its shoreline.
    That's a stupid term, Amsterdam wasn't affected and is not in the region protected by the Delta Works. Only major city that is protected by it is Rotterdam (which was also not flooded during the storm but close enough and big enough to require more protection). It was mostly rural area in Zeeland.

    Oh, and it's built not to withstand once in a hundred years storms but once in 2.000 / once in 10.000 year events (depending on the importance of the protected region).
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  30. #90
    I don't think its a widely used term, took some google digging to find the news headline the phrase came from
    http://observer.com/2012/10/new-new-...zed-sea-gates/
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •