This is exceedingly silly.
GGT, I will continue to point out when you are being out-of-line and over-the-top hostile with people. Which has very little to do with the substance of Cain's argument (which, separately, we did speak to him about to tone it down a bit).
Gee, sorry if I'm the exceedingly silly poster. But, uhm, thanks for promising to point out when I'm out-of-line or over-the-top hostile, in response to Cain's trolling?Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
You just sniped at me for asking you to stop sniping at Lewk. Now we're talking about me not talking about your responses to Cain?
This is exceedingly silly.
Actually, I was asking why Cain has been allowed to bitch ad nauseum, even using racial slurs (in a ha ha sarcastic way?). Some consistency would be appreciated, that's all. Nothing silly about that.
^^Congrats on your 10k posts
I've never noticed GGT to be over-the-top hostile as you put it, it's not like she's making death threats, now that would be over-the-top hostile. (In fact, the likes of Khen are way more hostile) I thought this forum was all about saying what you want, freedom of speech and all that crap, no matter how negative ?? Didn't think there was a PC theme going on here
There's nothing consistent between you snapping at Lewk and what Cain wrote. Did you miss the last sentence of Post 31?
I'm going to ignore the particular point of contention here (CC and GGT going at each other is hardly new, and we all know that CC's debating tactics at time stretch the definition of 'debate') and focus on the underlying question. Do I feel that TWF is antisemitic? No, not particularly, though I would suggest that some of the underlying cultural assumptions/biases of some posters here on particular issues may be rooted in an unspoken cultural antisemitism (just as there are biases rooted in racism, or sexism, or any number of other examples).Personally, I am absolutely baffled by this response.
Now, granted, I'm not Jewish, so I may be unable to perceive that kind of racism (white privilege hey-oo), but I honestly cannot say I've noticed discussions or attitudes shaped by anti-Semitic feeling. Our Israel thread is mostly to make fun of people frothing about its existence. Granted, I don't personally play too well with 2 of our 3 Jewish luminaries, but that's because of our political differences, and I certainly don't believe theirs are somehow a result of their Jewishness. Nor do I think greed, capitalism or communism are solely Jewish practices/vices/inventions. I sincerely doubt we have members here who do. But maybe I'm just blind? Do we hate on Jews here?
That being said, there are people out there in the world - in fact some prominent people in the media - who do use 'bankers' et al as code word for 'Jews', and they're not just in Iran or Egypt or whatever. The tropes against bankers/etc. start to sound awfully similar to the same conspiracy theories in the Protocols, and it makes some people uneasy. So it's not entirely unreasonable for someone to suggest that the broad sentiment in the US and elsewhere that is hypercritical of bankers and associated professions - exemplified by some of GGT's argumentation - might be rooted in an unspoken cultural antisemitism, albeit of a fairly diluted variety. This isn't to suggest that a specific person making that argumentation is antisemitic, or that CC's tactics are even remotely constructive, though.
On the other hand, I feel very uncomfortable making baseless accusations of antisemitism based on pretty flimsy evidence - seeming parallels in argumentation are hardly convincing proof. I feel the word is overused today, in a manner that dilutes its impact when you have real issues of antisemitism to address; I'm a bit unhappy with the ADL frequently for precisely this reason. Furthermore, much of the seemingly antisemitic tropes could be applied to most conspiracy theories that abound in the world, and plenty of them have nothing to do with Jews. So it might be our own cultural bias to make the instant connection to Jews, when in fact it could be connected to any number of other theories about cabals controlling the world.
On a side note of possible interest to you, Nessus, I do think that concerns about perceptions of Jews does affect posting behavior in general. I'm sure that most posters here long ago figured out that either I'm incredibly well-read or I have a particularly extensive knowledge about Judaism, Israel, etc, with the strong implication that I'm Jewish. For a long time at AtariCC, though, I was very cagey about revealing enough information to lead someone to this conclusion; sure, I participated in a lot of Israel threads, but so do a lot of people. My reasoning was that identifying a poster as Jewish colors the way people read and respond to their posts in a very obvious way (in much the same way that being identified as a fundamentalist Christian or devout Muslim would, though for Jews it rarely matters how observant/religious one is). I don't think this is overt or intentional antisemitism, but it definitely is a noticeable difference in the way people are treated. This is also true in real life; I know many religious Jews who refuse to wear obvious identifying features to work (e.g. skullcaps/kippot/yarmulkas) because they are concerned they will be treated differently; often, American religious Jews traveling abroad will intentionally hide their obvious identifying signs for fear of different treatment, and frankly for their safety (yes, including a number of countries in Western Europe).
It's a good thing that in much of the world, overt antisemitism is strongly frowned upon, largely as an outgrowth of the Holocaust. But there's still a 'soft bigotry', if you will, that's very widespread and very pernicious in how Jews are perceived by much of the world, including the 'civilized' parts. It's harder to identify and much harder to combat without seeming like an oversensitive idiot, but it very much exists. Whether it's a problem in this forum is another issue entirely - personally I don't find it to be a huge issue here compared to some other places I've been to. But it definitely exists.
If they did, I could really use some cash. Ditto for controlling the media and the government.
That being said, some of the stereotypes are true - for example, a bit of data I saw looked at average household income as a function of membership in various religious institutions (e.g. churches, synagogues, mosques) - Jews were at the top with Asian churches. That doesn't mean Jews are 'rich', but it does mean they tend to have higher educational attainment, higher incomes, etc. They also have other things that correlate with these incomes and help dispel the 'rich' bit - they have very high charitable giving rates (and well-supported community organizations that mostly don't get taxpayer funding), they have higher average family size, the more religious Jews send their children to expensive parochial schools, they tend to concentrate in fairly expensive urban areas, etc. Essentially, they choose to have more expenses even if their incomes are higher, so if one were to look at 'disposable income' per household, I don't know if Jews would come out much higher than anyone else.
Was that when you told me I as "out of line" for saying Lewk should read his goddamm Bible? Because he was posting as a false Christian?
Oh, excuse me for that ONE post, which was factually correct. By all means, compare that to the constant and unending crap Cain has given me, following me around from thread to thread, with his factually incorrect bullshit, in order to push his whatever-the-hell agenda, using what you'd call "sardonic anti-semitic humor"?
Give me a fricking break. I've been here a long time, and don't call people names or "snap" at anyone unless continually provoked. Lewk and I have had mostly decent repartee, even in our strong disagreements. I'm not overtly antagonist to anyone, even Loki or Cain. Even when they troll me like a small mouthed bass. I do, however, reserve the right to defend myself against said baiters and trollers.
We ALL have that right in this forum. I'd hope all moderators would agree, especially since you're loath to intervene and give WL. I somehow have a 0 point infraction, while Cain has no infractions at all. None.
^^Yeah, and people like Khen and CitizenCain get a free pass in their hostile postings (CitizenCain even suggested I commit suicide, or along those lines)...it's not fair Dreadnaught, you're being inconsistent in your moderating otherwise.
I mean, don't take it too personally. A third of the members here just condescendingly ridicule me for one reason or another because apparently they forgot they were idiotic teenagers a decade, or maybe thirty decades ago for some of you dinosaurs. Cheers.
GGT, I'm not going to argue with you in this thread over you snapping at Lewk.
Yes, you have an infraction for telling a completely-new member to fuck off for no reason. Which is yet another irrelevant tangent.
From the beginning, this place has been about having a very light touch. But certain levels of civility are what we aim for. Civility doesn't mean banning insults or aggressive posting. Or even offensive comparisons. It's a semi-squishy, nebulous goal. But it's the best goal we can all agree on.
Last edited by Dreadnaught; 09-26-2011 at 03:58 AM.
Neither of them get free passes. Nobody here does. We deal with them, and anyone else, whenever it appears necessary. Not all mod actions are immediately obvious to everybody, and even the public stuff, it's my preference at least that it stay low-key and be easily forgettable so everybody can move past it quickly.
As for the suggestion that you commit suicide, I don't remember seeing that. If it happens again, you can report it. I can't say for certain without seeing the actual incident and the full context around it, but that sounds like the type of thing that spurs us to action.
Sure, how's that civility work when it's Cain doing the insulting, being aggressive or offensive?
Don't get me wrong, Cain brings an interesting and chirpy type of discussion along with his baggage. I'd be the last person to want him censored or banned.
But you moderators shouldn't give him free license to be insulting, aggressive or offensive, while holding others to a different standard. That's not too much to ask for, is it?
Trust me, no one is being held to a higher or lower standard than Cain.
The topic died a week ago, and I didn't even care nor did I think "oh how offensive, I'm going to report him" (I just looked at the post again, and it wasn't a direct comment, as in, "You should kill yourself", it was within the context of the argument)..I don't care what anyone says to me on these boards tbh. Although I agree, you can't be reading every post here.
I just think saying to GGT that she was being over-the-top hostile was an over-the-top comment(when compared to some other posters here, not that I make it a point to cherry pick at their posts and say to myself "oh my, how hostile", just a passing observation of mine)
On what basis can you ever reject a characterization that you "ramble"?
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Okay, so I ramble sometimes. Even go off on tangents sometimes. Sometimes I even *gasp* start threads that look like rambling tangents. Is there a real problem with this? What are you comparing me with....your total absence in starting new threads? Your posts aimed at only correcting people?
SNAP!
And so what if someone rambles, I do it to my left-wing friends, who don't even know how to have a constructive debate, so I ramble.
This is kind of terrible for me to read! In the sense that I honestly don't have anti-Semitic sentiments, but due to my political leanings I must engage in argumentation that can be perceived as anti-Semitic, or even used as anti-Semitic fodder.
Places more reputable than the Rolling Stone have made a convincing argument (to me) that "bankers", or agents in the banking institutions and off-shoots thereof, are mostly responsible for the key elements in the global financial turmoil we're witnessing. So do I have a negative opinion of "bankers", for sure. But my stereotype of the person I envision behind these things is Gordon Gekko, not something out of Dr. Goebbels's movies! I had to look this up, and turns out Michael Douglas is Jewish, so I kinda lost my momentum here, but the point is I view the actions of some of the people in "high places" in a negative light, not their ethnicity.
Finland has a very small Jewish minority (about as much as we have Catholics, I think, don't know for sure), and I simply haven't been exposed to any opinions on the Jewish people, good or bad, to any noticeable degree. At least as a child and youth; reading up on these things is of course enlightening. But I have also made myself more than passingly familiar on some end results of anti-Semitism, and it's not the kind of stuff that improves my opinion on our species. That was partly my question to Dread up-thread; can I be critical of capitalism without engaging in rhetoric bound to be offensive/hostile towards the Jewish people? I'm not that well-read on American anti-Semitism, but I (white privilege again) assume one could be critical of communism without too much anti-Semitism? (I know the former Soviet bloc states have a lot of anti-Semitic tendencies, but I'm unsure whether that's still due to the same sentiments Dr. Goebbels was rousing.)
Then again, I am racist in the average GOP voter way towards the Israel issue; I'm just rooting for the whitest guys in a fight.
I don't know how to say this without being incredibly creepy, so I'll just be an honest creep: You're one of the more interesting posters on here for me in large part due to your Jewishness. I mean in the sense that I personally value intellect, intellectualism and science, and you do kinda fit the egg-headed Jew stereotype to a large degree. Of course it isn't as simple as that; you also represent a culture, background and upbringing that is a vast unknown to me (if there's a reasonable comparison to be made between Finland and the US, I'd be a read-up reject from a red-neck family in the South), so that's interesting in and of itself.
In some way it's a queer inverse of the white scholar and the noble savage; you represent generations of scholarly thought and associated culture, and I'm a white-privileged hill-billy who figured out books were fun outside the outhouse, as well. It is a racist motivation to engage with you, in some ways, and there's just no escaping that. But you're also interesting as a person, on your own merits, and IMO a more interesting Jewish poster than Loki or Dread. You three are also most likely the first Jews I ever interacted with!
I can't really change the fact that your Jewish background is interesting to me, and as a result I can't change the way that colours our interactions. But you're also an individual whose opinions and writings I value, alone and as part of the forum, and that has to transcend our differing ethnicity.
I think on some level a vast majority of intelligent people look at others as if they were specimens, because you can't really escape that constant need to analyze everything, this is certainly a theme I encounter time and again when getting drunk with other scientists, so I can't really say whether my racism towards you is motivated by this, or what. Either way, I hope it is something that isn't overly offensive to you.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I find the fact that people equate criticizing bankers with criticizing jews a bit more worrying than thinking that bankers are capitalists controlling banks (they are) looking out for themselves (which they do). It's not exactly wrong to state that a bunch of rich people care about themselves while having a blatant disregard for other people, including their health or even lives. So in the grand scheme of conspiracy theories, blaming bankers for the financial crisis (which started at the banks) doesn't rank very bad compared to, say, 9/11 or moonlanding conspiracies.
I must say I never personally made the connection between blaming bankers, and blaming jews. As was said here before, bankers actually do control banks. So if you are thinking of a conspiracy from within the banks, blaming bankers is kindof obvious. Arguably making that connection is more antisemitic than blaming bankers! Of course, I only live in the Netherlands, so maybe making that connection is more prevalent in the US.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
I didn't catch it. Glass over most of Cain's bullshit, so I never understood the joos remark, just thought it was him being his usual assholish self.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
I also did not make the connection until it was mentioned here.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
The problem is the use of a generalization fallacy giving rise to negative characterizations of an entire category of people regardless of their individual motivations or behavior. You can see the same issue with positive characterizations but positive characterizations are just generally less dangerous and insomuch as they can result in negative consequences those will be ones largely falling on the person participating in the fallacy, not someone else.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Fair enough, but you'll always end up making generalizations. You can never account for every person's motives. I think it is also rather silly to complain when it is done to bankers, considering the amount of generalizations used all the time (unions? socialists? the poor? the rich? republicans? religious fundies? europeans? 9/11 conspiracy nuts? government employees? democrats? you name it, they've been the victim of generalization here).
Hell, let's be honest, when you are talking about investment banking, it's not dishonest to assume they are driven by money and profit, considering that is their job. Of course assuming it's a big 'conspiracy' instead of a series of mistakes, or shortcomings of the system, is another thing, but to say the goal of that field is not to go for the money is pretty much true. Whether that leads to shortsighted, possibly immoral choices, is of course up for debate, and does depend from person to person, but to call that antisemitism?It's no worse than any other group of people has been 'targeted' here, so this is all a bit silly.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
Sure, we all generalize. It's a useful and fairly powerful tool. But it needs to be used correctly, and there are a couple of posters *GGT and Lewk top the list* who dramatically over-use it because doing so makes things so much more "simple". And that was what had been called out in the post responsible for this thread, was it not?Fair enough, but you'll always end up making generalizations. You can never account for every person's motives. I think it is also rather silly to complain when it is done to bankers, considering the amount of generalizations used all the time (unions? socialists? the poor? the rich? republicans? religious fundies? europeans? 9/11 conspiracy nuts? government employees? democrats? you name it, they've been the victim of generalization here).
Hell, let's be honest, when you are talking about investment banking, it's not dishonest to assume they are driven by money and profit, considering that is their job. Of course assuming it's a big 'conspiracy' instead of a series of mistakes, or shortcomings of the system, is another thing, but to say the goal of that field is not to go for the money is pretty much true. Whether that leads to shortsighted, possibly immoral choices, is of course up for debate, and does depend from person to person, but to call that antisemitism?
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
I want to emphasize that I don't think that you or any other poster here intentionally makes antisemitic argumentation, nor that you even do so unintentionally. To be honest I'm not too convinced about Cain's particular fixation on the bankers bit here - blaming bankers for running stupid policies that led to this crisis is fairly reasonable, though of course they're hardly the only ones at fault. I think the problem starts to become when people get obsessed about the influence of bankers on politics, media, etc. to the exclusion of any number of other very important and influential groups as an explanation of much of our current economic woe/policy. That starts to get loony/conspiracy theoryish (even if there are some valid concerns buried in there), and that's what starts to raise hackles. I want to emphasize that not all conspiracy theories are antisemitic, even if they often share similar traits... but it does start to bear uncomfortable similarities to rhetoric aimed at Jews in the past. "Wall Street bankers" does have a connotation as "Jewish" in many circles in the US.
I can't speak to how things work in other countries - I read a lot in English language press (even outside of the US), and I read up on egregious cases of antisemitism in the non-English speaking world, but that still leaves quite a bit of the 'cultural' feel as unclear to me. That being said, given the population of Jews in the US, the number of antisemitic incidents is actually fairly small compared to much smaller communities in other parts of the world, so I would not be surprised if antisemitic cultural tropes were more common elsewhere as well (not to single out any country, though).
Nah, I've gotten over the fact that people view me through the lens of my religious/cultural/national identity. I find it more problematic when that lens results in negative stereotypes - for example, I've had multiple people at work drop the assumption that I was wealthy and good at handling/investing money despite that fact that I came from a fairly boring middle income background and learned all I know about investing from my own investigations, and not from some cultural/familial milieu. (This is why I always make sure to tip somewhat more generously than would be expected; I strenuously want to avoid seeming 'cheap', even if my income is quite limited atm.)I don't know how to say this without being incredibly creepy, so I'll just be an honest creep: You're one of the more interesting posters on here for me in large part due to your Jewishness. I mean in the sense that I personally value intellect, intellectualism and science, and you do kinda fit the egg-headed Jew stereotype to a large degree. Of course it isn't as simple as that; you also represent a culture, background and upbringing that is a vast unknown to me (if there's a reasonable comparison to be made between Finland and the US, I'd be a read-up reject from a red-neck family in the South), so that's interesting in and of itself.
In some way it's a queer inverse of the white scholar and the noble savage; you represent generations of scholarly thought and associated culture, and I'm a white-privileged hill-billy who figured out books were fun outside the outhouse, as well. It is a racist motivation to engage with you, in some ways, and there's just no escaping that. But you're also interesting as a person, on your own merits, and IMO a more interesting Jewish poster than Loki or Dread. You three are also most likely the first Jews I ever interacted with!
I can't really change the fact that your Jewish background is interesting to me, and as a result I can't change the way that colours our interactions. But you're also an individual whose opinions and writings I value, alone and as part of the forum, and that has to transcend our differing ethnicity.
I think on some level a vast majority of intelligent people look at others as if they were specimens, because you can't really escape that constant need to analyze everything, this is certainly a theme I encounter time and again when getting drunk with other scientists, so I can't really say whether my racism towards you is motivated by this, or what. Either way, I hope it is something that isn't overly offensive to you.
On the flip side, I do find it gratifying to be able to positively influence people's perception of Jews through their interactions with me. IRL I'm among the most obvious Jews people in the secular world are likely to meet, and among the most knowledgeable. It's both a heavy responsibility and a wonderful opportunity to be a good representative of my identity. I don't know if I do a good job, but that concept is very much ingrained in how I interact with the world. I want people to view me favorably not just because it's good to be a decent person, but because everything I do reflects on people's perceptions of my entire religious/cultural/national group, and shaping those perceptions is very important in today's world. I can't say I do a great job on this forum (anonymity means I can be a bit more of an ass, which is obviously not a good thing), but I do my best IRL.
On a list of the least offensive forumers, you're pretty high up there. Of course most of that is the atmosphere of the place, but either way, don't worry.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
For those not used to seeing bankers and Jews being used interchangeably.
Hope is the denial of reality
Loki, I don't think anyone denies that this is the case. But plenty of other conspiratorial elites have been posited that have nothing to do with Jews - the Freemasons, the Illuminati, etc. - and they also are purported to control the banks/media/etc. The question is whether claims about bankers that border on the conspiratorial (rather than merely excoriating their conduct in a specific case) are of necessity tied to antisemitic canards. I'm not sure I can argue that in an honest manner; they certainly might be, but it's hard to know.
He's just posting that because he likes Michele
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
