Systematic anti-Semitism at TWF?

[littlelolligagged]

Doesn't that mean you have to like Icky now?

[CitizenCain]

He's clearly attacking GGT for making the exact arguments against bankers as were historically made against Jews...Not saying I think GGT thinks that way (that would require far too much coherence), but the line of reasoning is awfully similar.

Well, that's what I though too. Guess not.

Cain is making the point as offensively as possible, but it's not hard to see what he's saying.

And, for the sake of my curiosity, what's the polite, inoffensive way to tell someone they sound like the keynote speaker at a white supremacist rally? (I honestly thought that "j00s" would have been less offensive and far less drama-inducing than "stop plagiarizing Aryan Nation newsletters," but it seems not, so for future reference... ... ... ?)

Now, I'm not saying I'd necessarily have used the polite approach, had I known of one, but it's nice to have options. Really, this whole thing strikes me as an exercise in finding a polite way to tell someone you've had better sex in jail, in that it's both impossible and a futile waste of time better spent hunting unicorns.

As for the suggestion that you commit suicide, I don't remember seeing that.

That would be because it didn't actually ever happen. It was a question vis a vis Draco's unorthodox moral belief system, and one that was even clearly posed as an inquiry/hypothetical rather than as a suggestion or rhetorical. Another entry for the "why ****ing bother?" file though, speaking of rhetorical questions.

[Dreadnaught]

Because she's being conspiratorial, not a white supremacist? Are you saying GGT is actually anti-Semitic or something else?

[CitizenCain]

Look, I really have no idea how I can possibly be more clear than I have been, both about what I meant, and about what I'm asking. I'm not saying GGT's a bigot, nor do I care, nor is it even material to what I'm pointing out. But, as a number of people are apparently offended by the way I've remarked upon a lot of GGT's rhetoric being interchangeable with both modern-day and inter-war period white-supremacist rhetoric about the Jews... well, again, what is the inoffensive way to tell someone they sound like a passage out of Mein Kampf that rants about the scheming Jews secretly controlling the world?

[Loki]

Loki, I don't think anyone denies that this is the case. But plenty of other conspiratorial elites have been posited that have nothing to do with Jews - the Freemasons, the Illuminati, etc. - and they also are purported to control the banks/media/etc. The question is whether claims about bankers that border on the conspiratorial (rather than merely excoriating their conduct in a specific case) are of necessity tied to antisemitic canards. I'm not sure I can argue that in an honest manner; they certainly might be, but it's hard to know.

It's not exactly unusual to see those groups used interchangeably with Jews either...

And like I said earlier, I'm not equating being an ignorant conspiracy theorist with being an anti-Semite, but there's something to be said about the two coming to the same conclusion about similar nefarious groups.

[GGT]

Sure, we all generalize. It's a useful and fairly powerful tool. But it needs to be used correctly, and there are a couple of posters *GGT and Lewk top the list* who dramatically over-use it because doing so makes things so much more "simple". And that was what had been called out in the post responsible for this thread, was it not?

Did you just generalize all my posts as conspiratorial, and group me with Lewk who blames everything on lib'ruls?

Flixy said it well.

Since at least '07 I've been vocal in threads about Federal Reserve, Treasury, Fannie/Freddie, the housing and mortgage industries, asset and credit bubbles, securitizing debt, ratings agencies, financial firms, investment banks, congressional mandates, QE I and II, TARP/HAMP/TALF, FDIC, Wall Street and Main Street----as it all relates to the financial melt-down and The Great Recession (or Great Contraction or Depression II, or however one wants to generalize the mess).

What's silly is suggesting anyone who discusses these things is a conspiracy theorist, using out-dated and anti-semitic stereotypes of "bankers", with a wink and a nod.

[LittleFuzzy]

Did you just generalize all my posts as conspiratorial,

I clearly did not make such a generalization

and group me with Lewk who blames everything on lib'ruls?

Yes, I did lump your behavior seeking to simplify things with Lewk's search for stark black-and-white frameworks. I think you and he are engaging the same cognitive processing tools.

[GGT]

When someone finds the "appropriate" general term (or acronym) for our finance/banking/investing systems, private and public, please send me the memo.

Until then, if using words like banks, bankers, Big Banks conjures images of anti-semitism, conspiracy theories, or Aryan nation newsletters....that sounds like a problem in your own head, not mine.

[Nessus]

[Dreadnaught]

I heard about this, hadn't seen it yet.

He's an "independent trader". No wonder no firm will hire him, he sounds like a rambling idiot. "We don't care about the economy"? This guy is either totally incompetent or just plain trolling.

EDIT: It seems like the guy is more of a conference speaker and not actually a trader.

http://www.businessinsider.com/bbc-t...rastani-2011-9

[Nessus]

I wonder if he makes more than we do...It's a mad, mad, mad world

[Dreadnaught]

Either he definitely does, or he definitely lives on the brink of bankruptcy. It's gotta be one of those two extremes.

[GGT]

"Markets are ruled by fear". "If I see an opportunity to make money, I go with that". "For most traders... we don't really care that much about fixing the economy...our job is to make money from it". He goes to bed every night dreaming about another recession. The thirties Depression was an opportunity he hopes to repeat.

"When the market crashes....if you know what to do....you can make a lot of money." He's being honest. "Governments don't rule the world, Goldman Sachs rules the world". He was using that as a metaphor as a metastatic cancer that doesn't care about the host body. He also said anyone can make money, if they know what to do, using hedging strategies and protecting assets.

<Act like a metastatic cancer to make your millions.>

He predicts that the savings of millions of people around the world are at risk of being obliterated, and it's just the beginning. The worst thing to do is do nothing. I'd agree! But most retail investors are already pushed to their limits of trust and micromanagement. Hoping to hang onto their jobs, while HR manages their 401-Ks? Quite the ball buster, I'd say.

[Dreadnaught]

He is not an adequate representative of Ziocapital.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...-a-trader.html

By Jonathan Russell
11:50PM BST 27 Sep 2011

The soundbites won Mr Rastani instant fame. He became a viral hit and was trending on Twitter. BBC business editor Robert Peston was among the fans. "A must watch if you want to understand the euro crisis and how markets work," he told his army of 82,000 followers on Twitter on Tuesday.

The interview contained such gems as "Governments don't rule the world, Goldman Sachs rules the world [and] Goldman Sachs does not care about the rescue package."

But on Tuesday night the BBC was left facing questions about just how qualified Mr Rastani is to speak about the markets.

In the interview Mr Rastani described himself as an independent trader. Elsewhere he claims he's an "investment speaker". Instead of operating from a plush office in Canary Wharf Mr Rastani works and lives with his partner Anita Eader in a £200,000 semi in Bexleyheath, south London. The house, complete with a mortgage from Royal Bank of Scotland, belongs to her not him.


He is a business owner, a 99pc shareholder in public speaking venture Santoro Projects. Its most recent accounts show cash in the bank of £985. After four years trading net assets are £10,048 - in the red.

How a man who has never been authorised by the Financial Services Authority and has no discernible history working for a City institution ended up being interviewed by the BBC remains a mystery.

The incongruity led to some commentators speculating Mr Rastani was a professional hoaxer. The BBC denied the allegation: "We've carried out detailed investigations and can't find any evidence to suggest that the interview with Alessio Rastani was a hoax."

However, the BBC declined to comment on what checks, if any, it had done prior to the interview.

Mr Rastani was a little more forthcoming.

"They approached me," he told The Telegraph. "I'm an attention seeker. That is the main reason I speak. That is the reason I agreed to go on the BBC. Trading is a like a hobby. It is not a business. I am a talker. I talk a lot. I love the whole idea of public speaking."

So he's more of a talker than a trader. A man who doesn't own the house he lives in, but can sum up the financial crisis in just three minutes – a knack that escapes many financial commentators.

"I agreed to go on because I'm attention seeker," he said on Tuesday. "But I meant every word I said."

[Ziggy Stardust]

Trust me, no one is being held to a higher or lower standard than Cain.

Can I sign up to be? (I'll decide which later)

Hattrick - score!

[Dreadnaught]

Yes, please submit your request in writing to MinistryOfStandards@theworldforgotten.com.

[earthJoker]

I think Loki really believes what he writes in this thread, which is beyond scary.

[Loki]

Any particular reason you pick on me when at least 3 other people made very similar points to my own in this thread?

[Aimless]

He's probably mad about the whole Switzerland thing.

[earthJoker]

Any particular reason you pick on me when at least 3 other people made very similar points to my own in this thread?

I am not sure about Dread, I still think he's just playing devils advocate. Even the Al Guardian thread shows some paranoid elements too.

And complaining about non-US bankers seems to be for you - yes - that part is a bit confusing too.

[Flixy]

Nah, I've gotten over the fact that people view me through the lens of my religious/cultural/national identity. I find it more problematic when that lens results in negative stereotypes - for example, I've had multiple people at work drop the assumption that I was wealthy and good at handling/investing money despite that fact that I came from a fairly boring middle income background and learned all I know about investing from my own investigations, and not from some cultural/familial milieu. (This is why I always make sure to tip somewhat more generously than would be expected; I strenuously want to avoid seeming 'cheap', even if my income is quite limited atm.)

On the flip side, I do find it gratifying to be able to positively influence people's perception of Jews through their interactions with me. IRL I'm among the most obvious Jews people in the secular world are likely to meet, and among the most knowledgeable. It's both a heavy responsibility and a wonderful opportunity to be a good representative of my identity. I don't know if I do a good job, but that concept is very much ingrained in how I interact with the world. I want people to view me favorably not just because it's good to be a decent person, but because everything I do reflects on people's perceptions of my entire religious/cultural/national group, and shaping those perceptions is very important in today's world. I can't say I do a great job on this forum (anonymity means I can be a bit more of an ass, which is obviously not a good thing), but I do my best IRL.

I do think this is fascinating (though not really in a good way). I find it really odd that people judge you for being jewish, and your actions influence their perception of jews. I mean, that's a bit crazy. If I were to describe the jewish people I know, their religion would rank somewhere near the bottom. One of my best friends here is jewish, but I never expect behaviour from him because of that (more from where he's from, and how he was raised, and what he's studying), nor would I ever let his behaviour influence my views on religion as a whole. It's fascinating, but slightly scary how big a part of your identity and image it is, and how it influences those around you.

On the other hand, I do consider bankers to be capitalists. I mean, that's their fucking job. They are supposed to go for profit, at the expense of others if they have to. I just don't equate it with jews.

For the record, if you ask me who supposedly controls the money, the media, etc., I'd sooner think of a neoconservative conspiracy, than jewish. Not that I believe either.

For those not used to seeing bankers and Jews being used interchangeably.

Yeah, and we all know how much bankers and marxism get along. I have noticed lately how the old prejudice that communists love bankers is being revived I must say I am shocked, shocked, that a regime known for prosecuting and slaughtering jews also made propaganda against them. What are you going to tell me next, Ahmadinejad said that jews control the banks, the media, and the world?

Also, considering the general opinion in this thread that it's wrong to generalize whole groups (like Fuzzy wrote), I think it's amusing you are also apparently offended, considering the way you post about socialists, the leftwing, europeans, etc.

[Loki]

Also, considering the general opinion in this thread that it's wrong to generalize whole groups (like Fuzzy wrote), I think it's amusing you are also apparently offended, considering the way you post about socialists, the leftwing, europeans, etc.

Eh? When did I say I was offended?

For the record, if you ask me who supposedly controls the money, the media, etc., I'd sooner think of a neoconservative conspiracy, than jewish. Not that I believe either.

Think about all the neoconservatives that are regularly demonized. Then look up their religion.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I voted for a Jew last election. Does that mean I may criticize bankers?

(Not that I was going to, academic question)

[wiggin]

I do think this is fascinating (though not really in a good way). I find it really odd that people judge you for being jewish, and your actions influence their perception of jews. I mean, that's a bit crazy. If I were to describe the jewish people I know, their religion would rank somewhere near the bottom. One of my best friends here is jewish, but I never expect behaviour from him because of that (more from where he's from, and how he was raised, and what he's studying), nor would I ever let his behaviour influence my views on religion as a whole. It's fascinating, but slightly scary how big a part of your identity and image it is, and how it influences those around you.

I don't actually think it's a bigger part of my identity than, say, being American, or a scientist/engineer, or whatever... but the difference is that I'm very visibly Jewish, and that colors people's perceptions a lot more than if they just eventually figure out (or reason) that their completely secular buddy David Stein happens to have Jewish parents. Even so, I know a lot of unaffiliated Jews who feel similarly to me about their behavior reflecting on Jews as a whole. (Also, your friend: you suspect that where he's from, how he was raised, and what he's studying is more important than the fact he's Jewish? I have news for you, all three of those are affected by the fact he's Jewish.)

This is hardly tied to only Jews - there's a black guy in my (overwhelmingly white/Asian) lab who consciously dresses better than others because otherwise he's given trouble by cops, Hopkins security, etc. (sometimes he's still given trouble even looking very clean cut) because they assume he couldn't possibly be a PhD researcher and must be up to no good. Visual impressions are important in society, and being visibly Jewish carries its own attendant opportunities and burdens. I can't speak to the perception in NL - I've been there only for a day, and didn't get a chance to see if people treated me very differently. But given the fact that it's pretty much a given that you shouldn't walk around Paris wearing identifiably Jewish characteristics, I wouldn't be surprised if significant chunks of the Western world have similar preconceptions about Jews as the US; probably more, given the relatively large number of Jews in US cities and US discourse.

For the record, if you ask me who supposedly controls the money, the media, etc., I'd sooner think of a neoconservative conspiracy, than jewish. Not that I believe either.

Er. Yeah. See, in the US, the epithet 'neoconservative' was applied in the early 70s to traditional liberals/Democrats who had moved to the right on a variety of issues (actually in the beginning having more to do with the expansion of social programs than foreign policy). It was later 'owned' as a label by Podhoretz and Kristol (both Jews), and has evolved into the 'hawkish on foreign policy/security, more centrist/liberal on social/domestic policy' label we see today. Given that a large proportion of influential conservatives lumped into the 'neoconservative' pile were Jewish, tropes against neoconservatism in the US have taken on a lot of antisemitic conspiracy theory language, and it has often been derided as a code word for 'Jewish Republican'. This is particularly true wrt criticism of the neoconservative role in pushing forward the Iraq War, alleging it was done by neoconservatives in thrall to Israel.

I doubt you meant this, but that was not the best example to give. In fact, it reinforces the point much more strongly than the bankers analogy that there are 'code words' in discourse for Jewish that are often used for antisemitic purposes.

[Flixy]

I don't actually think it's a bigger part of my identity than, say, being American, or a scientist/engineer, or whatever... but the difference is that I'm very visibly Jewish, and that colors people's perceptions a lot more than if they just eventually figure out (or reason) that their completely secular buddy David Stein happens to have Jewish parents. Even so, I know a lot of unaffiliated Jews who feel similarly to me about their behavior reflecting on Jews as a whole. (Also, your friend: you suspect that where he's from, how he was raised, and what he's studying is more important than the fact he's Jewish? I have news for you, all three of those are affected by the fact he's Jewish.)

Being visible obviously changes things quite a lot. That being said, my friend in the example, I only knew he was jewish after a year or so. And with his background, I mostly meant how he came from up north, his mum died when he was younger, stuff like that. Other than that his background is quite familiar to mine (liberal, valuing education, etc.). In fact, in both upbringing and personality, he is really close to how I am. So I doubt that is significantly affected by his religion, since I was brought up as an atheist.

This is hardly tied to only Jews - there's a black guy in my (overwhelmingly white/Asian) lab who consciously dresses better than others because otherwise he's given trouble by cops, Hopkins security, etc. (sometimes he's still given trouble even looking very clean cut) because they assume he couldn't possibly be a PhD researcher and must be up to no good. Visual impressions are important in society, and being visibly Jewish carries its own attendant opportunities and burdens. I can't speak to the perception in NL - I've been there only for a day, and didn't get a chance to see if people treated me very differently. But given the fact that it's pretty much a given that you shouldn't walk around Paris wearing identifiably Jewish characteristics, I wouldn't be surprised if significant chunks of the Western world have similar preconceptions about Jews as the US; probably more, given the relatively large number of Jews in US cities and US discourse.

I wouldn't know. Sometimes I feel like those 'don't walk around looking jewish/gay/whatever' things are a bit exaggerated, but that's easy for me to say. I've mostly encountered 'visible' jews in Antwerp, and, well, there are a lot of them there which presumably makes it easier. To be honest I am mostly amused by their hats.

Er. Yeah. See, in the US, the epithet 'neoconservative' was applied in the early 70s to traditional liberals/Democrats who had moved to the right on a variety of issues (actually in the beginning having more to do with the expansion of social programs than foreign policy). It was later 'owned' as a label by Podhoretz and Kristol (both Jews), and has evolved into the 'hawkish on foreign policy/security, more centrist/liberal on social/domestic policy' label we see today. Given that a large proportion of influential conservatives lumped into the 'neoconservative' pile were Jewish, tropes against neoconservatism in the US have taken on a lot of antisemitic conspiracy theory language, and it has often been derided as a code word for 'Jewish Republican'. This is particularly true wrt criticism of the neoconservative role in pushing forward the Iraq War, alleging it was done by neoconservatives in thrall to Israel.

I doubt you meant this, but that was not the best example to give. In fact, it reinforces the point much more strongly than the bankers analogy that there are 'code words' in discourse for Jewish that are often used for antisemitic purposes.

Heh, bad example I suppose. For the record, I associate neocon with Bush/Cheney/etc., probably because I am young. Does fit in well in this thread, though: I don't see bankers as jewish, as I don't see neoconservativeness as being connected to religion. For me, the other characteristics are more important - maybe times are changing. For me it's as surprising to link political stances like that to a religion, as it is to link banking to it. Considering there aren't that many jews in the Netherlands, the vast amount of bankers are not jewish. I think from my previous post it's rather obvious that I don't make thoise connection, at least. My opinions on them are based on their actions/opinions, not heritage.

[wiggin]

Being visible obviously changes things quite a lot. That being said, my friend in the example, I only knew he was jewish after a year or so. And with his background, I mostly meant how he came from up north, his mum died when he was younger, stuff like that. Other than that his background is quite familiar to mine (liberal, valuing education, etc.). In fact, in both upbringing and personality, he is really close to how I am. So I doubt that is significantly affected by his religion, since I was brought up as an atheist.

I wouldn't argue that religion is the important bit here, but rather cultural/national identities (or vestiges thereof). A disproportionate number of Jews are liberal, a disproportionate number of them have a very strong ethic towards higher education, etc, etc. Any similarities with your own values may have nothing to do with his being Jewish, but on the other hand they might have everything to do with it. A friend I know in the sciences jokes that she is practically Jewish because of her upbringing - which has similar emphasis on education, intellectualism, etc. - and because she spent her time in institutions crawling with Jews (Harvard, BU, Johns Hopkins), lives in heavily Jewish neighborhoods (Brookline, Newton, Columbia), etc. The reason for the similarity between her own values/etc. and those of her Jewish neighbors and coworkers is not despite their Jewish background, but because of it - a form of 'convergent cultural evolution', if you will.

Some of it is even unintentional. Where you live was dictated to a large extent by societal pressures (and outright laws) limiting where Jews could buy property. Jews were excluded from owning property, or being in certain professions, or whatever else, so that affects where they traditionally ended up in terms of jobs. Jews for millenia have had a strong ethic of literacy, educations, and rational/intellectual inquiry, so it's not surprising that they fit into education stuff. The point is that I can't speak for your friend, and I'm sure his identity is a complex one with Judaism being only a part (possibly a vanishingly small part), but the circumstance of his being Jewish almost certainly has a strong effect on his current status in life and how you relate to him. *shrugs*

I wouldn't know. Sometimes I feel like those 'don't walk around looking jewish/gay/whatever' things are a bit exaggerated, but that's easy for me to say. I've mostly encountered 'visible' jews in Antwerp, and, well, there are a lot of them there which presumably makes it easier. To be honest I am mostly amused by their hats.

There are numerous incidents of people being assaulted and threatened in France and other W. European countries for being Jewish. Every year, a number of synagogues around Europe are firebombed. This is not a small problem, and people are understandably nervous about appearing identifiably Jewish.

Personally, I generally refuse to change my appearance to suit such concerns - if I genuinely feel I would be endangered to walk around as an obvious Jew, then I won't visit the country/region, because if such behavior is even remotely tolerated, they don't deserve my money. But it's a valid concern for some places.

(BTW I don't wear the crazy getup you're probably used to from Antwerp, those are probably Hasidic Jews associated with the diamond trade.)

Heh, bad example I suppose. For the record, I associate neocon with Bush/Cheney/etc., probably because I am young. Does fit in well in this thread, though: I don't see bankers as jewish, as I don't see neoconservativeness as being connected to religion. For me, the other characteristics are more important - maybe times are changing. For me it's as surprising to link political stances like that to a religion, as it is to link banking to it. Considering there aren't that many jews in the Netherlands, the vast amount of bankers are not jewish. I think from my previous post it's rather obvious that I don't make thoise connection, at least. My opinions on them are based on their actions/opinions, not heritage.

I understand that you didn't mean to make those associations, but the associations definitely are very prevalent for neoconservatives in particular, especially in the US (which is the only place the term has any meaning, anyways). Alberjohns used to rant about neocons all the time, and in his case it almost certainly was thinly veiled antisemitism (IIRC there was one thread back in the day on AtariCC that really showed it). It's not surprising that some people have pretty thin skins about conspiracy theories about X group that are often linked by others to antisemitic rhetoric and attacks. I doubt most people consciously make that association, but the associations do exist, and they aren't exactly secrets either.

I think the line should be drawn not between making any statements about 'bankers' or 'neocons', because that's obviously unreasonable, but at inventing elaborate conspiracy theories about cabals of 'bankers' and 'neocons' that start to bear unfortunate similarities to antisemitic tropes. Even if the intent to make that link doesn't exist, I think it's wise to steer clear of the issue, and frankly conspiracy theories are pretty poor ideas in general anyways.

[Loki]

Heh, bad example I suppose. For the record, I associate neocon with Bush/Cheney/etc., probably because I am young. Does fit in well in this thread, though: I don't see bankers as jewish, as I don't see neoconservativeness as being connected to religion. For me, the other characteristics are more important - maybe times are changing. For me it's as surprising to link political stances like that to a religion, as it is to link banking to it. Considering there aren't that many jews in the Netherlands, the vast amount of bankers are not jewish. I think from my previous post it's rather obvious that I don't make thoise connection, at least. My opinions on them are based on their actions/opinions, not heritage.

Actually, neither Bush nor Cheney were neoconservatives. It's some of their chief advisers that were (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Libby, etc.)

[Flixy]

I wouldn't argue that religion is the important bit here, but rather cultural/national identities (or vestiges thereof). A disproportionate number of Jews are liberal, a disproportionate number of them have a very strong ethic towards higher education, etc, etc. Any similarities with your own values may have nothing to do with his being Jewish, but on the other hand they might have everything to do with it. A friend I know in the sciences jokes that she is practically Jewish because of her upbringing - which has similar emphasis on education, intellectualism, etc. - and because she spent her time in institutions crawling with Jews (Harvard, BU, Johns Hopkins), lives in heavily Jewish neighborhoods (Brookline, Newton, Columbia), etc. The reason for the similarity between her own values/etc. and those of her Jewish neighbors and coworkers is not despite their Jewish background, but because of it - a form of 'convergent cultural evolution', if you will.

Well, the 'intellectual elite' here is not dominated by Jews. And the background I am mostly referring to is, well, academic, intellectual parents, with decent jobs. On a side note, another good friend with a very similar background, is definitely not jewish - his grandmother was in the Hitlerjugend

Some of it is even unintentional. Where you live was dictated to a large extent by societal pressures (and outright laws) limiting where Jews could buy property. Jews were excluded from owning property, or being in certain professions, or whatever else, so that affects where they traditionally ended up in terms of jobs. Jews for millenia have had a strong ethic of literacy, educations, and rational/intellectual inquiry, so it's not surprising that they fit into education stuff. The point is that I can't speak for your friend, and I'm sure his identity is a complex one with Judaism being only a part (possibly a vanishingly small part), but the circumstance of his being Jewish almost certainly has a strong effect on his current status in life and how you relate to him. *shrugs*

Maybe, I should talk about it some time. But generally speaking, religion hardly ever comes up in discussions. I realise that Judaism is, more so than most other religions here, a culture, heritage. Because it never comes up and doesn't seem to have much, if any, impact on his life, I just assumed it didn't. But you make interesting points, so maybe I should ask him some time! I am also a bit curious if this identifying as Jewish is more common in the USA, where people seem to put more emphasis on what group they belong to, and heritage. But that could also be prejudice from me, I have only been in the USA once after all.

There are numerous incidents of people being assaulted and threatened in France and other W. European countries for being Jewish. Every year, a number of synagogues around Europe are firebombed. This is not a small problem, and people are understandably nervous about appearing identifiably Jewish.

Personally, I generally refuse to change my appearance to suit such concerns - if I genuinely feel I would be endangered to walk around as an obvious Jew, then I won't visit the country/region, because if such behavior is even remotely tolerated, they don't deserve my money. But it's a valid concern for some places.

I like to think that the Netherlands are fairly tolerant, but even here there have been multiple incidents that included harassment of Jews, or gays, for that matter, mostly by muslim youth. OTOH, in a number of these cases, they are just looking to harass someone, and once they find a person they find a reason, so in some cases, they are not harassed because they are Jewish, but because they are harassed, the harassment focuses around their Jewishness. Of course, that's definitely not always the case. But it tends to be the same kind of people who harass people for looking at them wrong, wearing wrong clothes, etc.. That said, it is a real and serious problem.

For the record, the only religious place bombed in my area was a muslim primary school. And I think in that period mostly mosques and churches were bombed, not synagogues. But those were special circumstances (Theo van Gogh murder).

I myself apparently also look a bit Jewish (curly dark hair, etc.), because I have been approached multiple times on the street by complete strangers who ask that. Even if I was, what the fuck do they care, they don't know me.. Then again, I also look rather Mediterranean, and have also been approached and asked if I am Turkish/Moroccan numerous times. Funny how people estimate me as both a jew or a muslim

For the record, if you don't want to reinforce stereotypes, don't say things like 'They don't deserve my money' I know it's more because of your American culture than Jewish, but still!

(BTW I don't wear the crazy getup you're probably used to from Antwerp, those are probably Hasidic Jews associated with the diamond trade.)

Indeed. I don't think it's particularly crazy to be honest, if you feel it's part of your religion to dress like that, be my guest. But it does look funny when it rains and they have see-through plastic bags around it I find other things more crazy, a Jewish ex-gf of mine told me how she knew orthodox families where the boys were not allowed to talk to her (or look at her if I remember correctly, but I might be exaggerating now). But I have that with any religion - my cousin married a guy from a reformed protestant church background. At the wedding the speech of the pastor was a bit unnerving, if you paid attention to it he was definitely saying that a wife should know her place in the marriage

I understand that you didn't mean to make those associations, but the associations definitely are very prevalent for neoconservatives in particular, especially in the US (which is the only place the term has any meaning, anyways). Alberjohns used to rant about neocons all the time, and in his case it almost certainly was thinly veiled antisemitism (IIRC there was one thread back in the day on AtariCC that really showed it). It's not surprising that some people have pretty thin skins about conspiracy theories about X group that are often linked by others to antisemitic rhetoric and attacks. I doubt most people consciously make that association, but the associations do exist, and they aren't exactly secrets either.

I think the line should be drawn not between making any statements about 'bankers' or 'neocons', because that's obviously unreasonable, but at inventing elaborate conspiracy theories about cabals of 'bankers' and 'neocons' that start to bear unfortunate similarities to antisemitic tropes. Even if the intent to make that link doesn't exist, I think it's wise to steer clear of the issue, and frankly conspiracy theories are pretty poor ideas in general anyways.

I think I agree with where you think the line should be drawn. To be honest, I find conspiracy theories mostly retarded, which is also why I don't know much about neoconservatives. I've heard the term, heard some of the accusations with regards to things like Iraq, and 9/11 conspiracy theories, and realized I don't have any need whatsoever to learn more about it.

[wiggin]

Well, the 'intellectual elite' here is not dominated by Jews. And the background I am mostly referring to is, well, academic, intellectual parents, with decent jobs. On a side note, another good friend with a very similar background, is definitely not jewish - his grandmother was in the Hitlerjugend

It's not really dominated by Jews anywhere other than Israel; even in the US, Jews are only disproportionately represented, but hardly dominating. It's all a matter of numbers.

Maybe, I should talk about it some time. But generally speaking, religion hardly ever comes up in discussions. I realise that Judaism is, more so than most other religions here, a culture, heritage. Because it never comes up and doesn't seem to have much, if any, impact on his life, I just assumed it didn't. But you make interesting points, so maybe I should ask him some time! I am also a bit curious if this identifying as Jewish is more common in the USA, where people seem to put more emphasis on what group they belong to, and heritage. But that could also be prejudice from me, I have only been in the USA once after all.

It could be a US thing identity-wise, at least... that whole 'mosaic' thing instead of a 'melting pot'. That's what you get from a nation of immigrants.

For the record, if you don't want to reinforce stereotypes, don't say things like 'They don't deserve my money' I know it's more because of your American culture than Jewish, but still!

Hehe. I didn't mean to imply I actually had much money (I don't), but if I'm going to drop a whole bunch of disposable income on a country that won't accept me as I am. Voting with my feet and dollars is the only way to register my displeasure. (edit: it's quite a conundrum, actually, for the large numbers of Jews who visit Eastern Europe to see the death camps, ghettos, etc. in countries with virulent antisemitism like Ukraine or Poland. They're providing quite a bit of tourist income to a country that no one would visit otherwise, despite the fact that these countries still didn't learn much from the events of WWII. But on the other hand, it's important that these events and sites be remembered...)

Indeed. I don't think it's particularly crazy to be honest, if you feel it's part of your religion to dress like that, be my guest. But it does look funny when it rains and they have see-through plastic bags around it I find other things more crazy, a Jewish ex-gf of mine told me how she knew orthodox families where the boys were not allowed to talk to her (or look at her if I remember correctly, but I might be exaggerating now). But I have that with any religion - my cousin married a guy from a reformed protestant church background. At the wedding the speech of the pastor was a bit unnerving, if you paid attention to it he was definitely saying that a wife should know her place in the marriage

This is going rather far afield from the original topic, but since it looks like no one else cares, I'll keep on with it. The clothing thing is a quaint anachronism that has little to no real religious significance (other than concerns of modesty, which can be met with more 'modern' clothes just as well), but it's not really crazy in and of itself, no. As for the girl thing:

Yes, some Haredim/Ultra-Orthodox have pretty strict rules about mixing of the genders (and pretty strict dress codes for both men and women). Generally, boys and girls in these communities have effectively zero social interactions (outside of family) until they start dating. Dating is an arranged, highly formalized process whose sole purpose is to rapidly find a suitable spouse. In the most extreme cases, the couple may only meet a handful of times in highly controlled circumstances before their wedding. A much more broadly followed practice in the religious world is for boys and girls to refrain from touching each other at all, even if they can interact socially (talking, etc.). Needless to say, I imagine this can lead to some interesting wedding nights (unfortunately, the quality of sex ed in very religious Jewish communities is poor to nonexistent, meaning that the couple might even be a bit hazy on what they're supposed to be doing).

I want to emphasize that most Jews aren't like this but it is a notable minority.

I think I agree with where you think the line should be drawn. To be honest, I find conspiracy theories mostly retarded, which is also why I don't know much about neoconservatives. I've heard the term, heard some of the accusations with regards to things like Iraq, and 9/11 conspiracy theories, and realized I don't have any need whatsoever to learn more about it.

Good for you!

[Wraith]

but the difference is that I'm very visibly Jewish

Pics needed.

I've never really known how some people can tell if someone's jewish by looking at them. Unless you just mean that you're always sporting a yamaka, I want reference pics.