Systematic anti-Semitism at TWF?

[Nessus]

Where we apparently blame everything on the armies of Jews (accountants, economists, analysts, "math quants," actuarial experts and bankers), which is fine, as long as we list them by their brainy professions, instead of calling them j00s.

Got it, thanks for the clarity.

Personally, I am absolutely baffled by this response.

Now, granted, I'm not Jewish, so I may be unable to perceive that kind of racism (white privilege hey-oo), but I honestly cannot say I've noticed discussions or attitudes shaped by anti-Semitic feeling. Our Israel thread is mostly to make fun of people frothing about its existence. Granted, I don't personally play too well with 2 of our 3 Jewish luminaries, but that's because of our political differences, and I certainly don't believe theirs are somehow a result of their Jewishness. Nor do I think greed, capitalism or communism are solely Jewish practices/vices/inventions. I sincerely doubt we have members here who do. But maybe I'm just blind? Do we hate on Jews here?

[GGT]

I don't understand Cain's constant use of "j00s" either. I've tried to counter his replies, to no avail. I decided to report a couple of his posts, but the Report Post didn't work as expected.

Seems Cain uses "j00s" as some kind of code to imply...something sarcastic or derogatory only he understands in his mind. When we don't understand that code, it's just more proof, in his mind, that we're stoopid or dense. I'm pretty tired of it, and have told him so, and asked him to get a new "slogan". But he ignores me, or says I'm stoopid and dense, and uses more j000 references. That's just weird.

[CitizenCain]

Personally, I am absolutely baffled by this response.

That was meant to point out the disconnect between GGT incessantly (and ostensibly acceptably "for the serious discussion forum"?) laying blame on the Jews..., oops, I mean the bankers and accountants and economists and financial-sector "math-quants" (and so on) and Rand's statement about pointing it out not being appropriate for the serious discussion forum. Not like "evil, greedy, scheming Jews secretly controlling the world" has ever been largely synonymous with that approximate list of professions or anything.

Not to imply I think there's a general anti-Semitic sentiment on here, but to point out that someone in particular is using the same arguments and rhetoric, even against largely the same group of people, that's used to blame the Jews for secretly controlling the world and robbing the rest of us of our money.

Anyway, since it has apparently been a while since I last explained it to GeeGee, my response to her from that thread...

Granted, I am the only one to ever make the connection between white-collar professions requiring a lot of education and offering high income earnings with Jews (), but I'm far from the only one on here who's commented about your compulsion to blame everything related to the financial sector's woes on armies of educated professionals. Gee, thank God the anti-Semites haven't historically used a perceived Jewish connection to the financial sector to make crazy conspiracy claims about the Jews secretly running the world, or I might be onto something there!

In other words, YOU knock it off already. If you stop making arguments that are interchangeable with crazy, racist conspiracy theories about greedy Jews (or j00s, as I prefer) secretly running the world and controlling our monies, I'll stop pointing out that you're making arguments that are interchangeable with crazy, racist conspiracy theories about greedy Jews (or j00s, as I prefer) secretly running the world and controlling our monies. You'll probably just have to deal with the fact that I'm not about to put a whole bunch of time and effort (--> "lots of words") into a post I'm certain you'll ignore or forget about by the next day, though, and prefer to abbreviate concepts I've spelled out repeatedly to you, to no avail.

For example:

"j00s" ~= stop making "arguments" that are interchangeable with crazy, racist conspiracy theories about greedy Jews secretly running the world and controlling our monies and blaming all our current problems on a long list/grouping of people that's practically interchangeable with "Zionist-Jew pig-dog overlords."

[GGT]

That was meant to point out the disconnect between GGT incessantly (and ostensibly acceptably "for the serious discussion forum"?) laying blame on the Jews..., oops, I mean the bankers and accountants and economists and financial-sector "math-quants" (and so on) and Rand's statement about pointing it out not being appropriate for the serious discussion forum. Not like "evil, greedy, scheming Jews secretly controlling the world" has ever been largely synonymous with that approximate list of professions or anything.

Not to imply I think there's a general anti-Semitic sentiment on here, but to point out that someone in particular is using the same arguments and rhetoric, even against largely the same group of people, that's used to blame the Jews for secretly controlling the world and robbing the rest of us of our money.

Anyway, since it has apparently been a while since I last explained it to GeeGee, my response to her from that thread...

Man, that's a strange way to explain your trolling. You're the only one making a connection to finance-related professionals, Jews, and conspiracy theorists.

While you incessantly lay blame on the "evil, greedy, scheming government controlling the world", and robbing you of hard earned money at gun-point. Riiight.

[Aimless]

Nonsense as usual on tWF. As we all know, the vast majority of Jews don't run Goldman Sachs. The answer to your question Nessie is "baiting". It's like when Loki had the bright idea to compare everything and everyone he disliked to blaming rape victims. It's a proud old tradition on this forum that brings depth and colour to our discussions. Why do you hate rape victims?

[Draco]

Looks like satirical humour to me, which I'm ok with.

[Loki]

Personally, I am absolutely baffled by this response.

Now, granted, I'm not Jewish, so I may be unable to perceive that kind of racism (white privilege hey-oo), but I honestly cannot say I've noticed discussions or attitudes shaped by anti-Semitic feeling. Our Israel thread is mostly to make fun of people frothing about its existence. Granted, I don't personally play too well with 2 of our 3 Jewish luminaries, but that's because of our political differences, and I certainly don't believe theirs are somehow a result of their Jewishness. Nor do I think greed, capitalism or communism are solely Jewish practices/vices/inventions. I sincerely doubt we have members here who do. But maybe I'm just blind? Do we hate on Jews here?

He's clearly attacking GGT for making the exact arguments against bankers as were historically made against Jews...Not saying I think GGT thinks that way (that would require far too much coherence), but the line of reasoning is awfully similar.

[Nessus]

He's clearly attacking GGT for making the exact arguments against bankers as were historically made against Jews...Not saying I think GGT thinks that way (that would require far too much coherence), but the line of reasoning is awfully similar.

No one is born a banker, but anyone born of a Jewish mother is a Jew. Is there no moral difference in condemning those who make a choice and those who do not? Can we say one is a criminal based on their circumstance of birth alone?

[Loki]

No one is born a banker, but anyone born of a Jewish mother is a Jew. Is there no moral difference in condemning those who make a choice and those who do not? Can we say one is a criminal based on their circumstance of birth alone?

The point is that historically, attacks against "global bankers" were the "polite" way of attacking Jews.

[Nessus]

The point is that historically, attacks against "global bankers" were the "polite" way of attacking Jews.

And historically that was in the context of a broader narrative that no longer exists today. At least, not on TWF, in Iran you might have a point.

[GGT]

He's clearly attacking GGT for making the exact arguments against bankers as were historically made against Jews...Not saying I think GGT thinks that way (that would require far too much coherence), but the line of reasoning is awfully similar.

Wow, you want it both ways, huh. I make a coherent argument against today's financial institutions, something that "historically" used to be anti-semitic, but since I'm not being anti-semitic, my line of reasoning isn't coherent? Where do you come up with this shit?

Yes yes but it's perfectly clear that GGT is attacking bankers and not Jews. If naughty bankers are all Jews then fine but she's knocking the naughtiness and not the Jewishness.

Exactly. Glad I'm not misunderstood by everyone.

[CitizenCain]

He's clearly attacking GGT for making the exact arguments against bankers as were historically made against Jews...Not saying I think GGT thinks that way (that would require far too much coherence), but the line of reasoning is awfully similar.

Well, that's what I though too. Guess not.

Cain is making the point as offensively as possible, but it's not hard to see what he's saying.

And, for the sake of my curiosity, what's the polite, inoffensive way to tell someone they sound like the keynote speaker at a white supremacist rally? (I honestly thought that "j00s" would have been less offensive and far less drama-inducing than "stop plagiarizing Aryan Nation newsletters," but it seems not, so for future reference... ... ... ?)

Now, I'm not saying I'd necessarily have used the polite approach, had I known of one, but it's nice to have options. Really, this whole thing strikes me as an exercise in finding a polite way to tell someone you've had better sex in jail, in that it's both impossible and a futile waste of time better spent hunting unicorns.

As for the suggestion that you commit suicide, I don't remember seeing that.

That would be because it didn't actually ever happen. It was a question vis a vis Draco's unorthodox moral belief system, and one that was even clearly posed as an inquiry/hypothetical rather than as a suggestion or rhetorical. Another entry for the "why ****ing bother?" file though, speaking of rhetorical questions.

[Aimless]

Yes yes but it's perfectly clear that GGT is attacking bankers and not Jews. If naughty bankers are all Jews then fine but she's knocking the naughtiness and not the Jewishness.

[Dreadnaught]

I think the point is attacking Jews collectively was as baseless and misinformed as is attacking bankers collectively.

[Aimless]

Aimless's law clearly states that you should never ascribe to cleverness that which you can ascribe to malice and, let's face it, blaming Jews collectively was probably more baseless than blaming bankers collectively. Not to mention more dangerous, more disgusting, and, well, more of everything bad. I'm surprised you're embracing this oblique Godwin. Oh right, that's the relevant law here

[Dreadnaught]

It's Godwin-esque, except for the whole parallel between the archetypal money-grubbing International Jew and the archetypal money-grubbing international banker.

I'm not saying GGT is an anti-Semite at all. But her rambling attacks on bankers make it easy to just slip in the word "Jew" and see how vapid the attacks can be.

[Nessus]

It's Godwin-esque, except for the whole parallel between the archetypal money-grubbing International Jew and the archetypal money-grubbing international banker.

I'm not saying GGT is an anti-Semite at all. But her rambling attacks on bankers make it easy to just slip in the word "Jew" and see how vapid the attacks can be.

And if one were to replace them with "homosexual", they'd be Serious Talking Points among the GOP hopefuls. The whole charade doesn't illustrate anything save for Kain's attitude towards the Holocaust.

[Steely Glint]

But her rambling attacks on bankers make it easy to just slip in the word "Jew" and see how vapid the attacks can be.

Well, I think a major difference there is the fact that bankers, by definition, actually do control the banks. Where as the Jews, as far as I know, do not.

[Dreadnaught]

Totally irrelevant. Unless gay people also have been accused of controlling the banks and media.

[Aimless]

"Liberals"

"The government"

ooh I like this

[Nessus]

Totally irrelevant. Unless gay people also have been accused of controlling the banks and media.

Well, I'm not sad to say mister Falwell is currently dead, but a large segment of the US population seems to think God controls, among other things, the economy, whereupon killing faggots makes about as much sense as "liberals" "persecuting" bankers. Both sides have a theory on how the world operates, and they're working on those principles.

[Steely Glint]

Dreadnaught, Loki, Wiggin: If the Jews did control the banks, you'd tell us, right? We've known you long enough.

[Dreadnaught]

Well, I'm not sad to say mister Falwell is currently dead, but a large segment of the US population seems to think God controls, among other things, the economy, whereupon killing faggots makes about as much sense as "liberals" "persecuting" bankers. Both sides have a theory on how the world operates, and they're working on those principles.

So? We're talking about a particular comparison that was made, not the backwards beliefs of religious fundamentalists.

Well, I think a major difference there is the fact that bankers, by definition, actually do control the banks. Where as the Jews, as far as I know, do not.

Dreadnaught, Loki, Wiggin: If the Jews did control the banks, you'd tell us, right? We've known you long enough.

GGT isn't saying the bankers control the banks, she's saying the bankers control the world.

I can't comment on whether Jews control the banks, but I have heard they control the media. And that several forumers are secret Jews.

[Nessus]

So? We're talking about a particular comparison that was made, not the backwards beliefs of religious fundamentalists.

So why is it okay to co-opt the Holocaust in defence of Ayn Rand? If the lesson was, "substituting 'jew' for 'banker' makes this claim asinine", surely the same holds for substituting 'homosexual' instead.

[GGT]

It's Godwin-esque, except for the whole parallel between the archetypal money-grubbing International Jew and the archetypal money-grubbing international banker.

I'm not saying GGT is an anti-Semite at all. But her rambling attacks on bankers make it easy to just slip in the word "Jew" and see how vapid the attacks can be.

Well, I think a major difference there is the fact that bankers, by definition, actually do control the banks. Where as the Jews, as far as I know, do not.

I reject the characterization that I "ramble" on my attacks toward Big Banks. As Steely says, banks are controlled primarily by bankers. Duh! Our banks are bigger than ever, don't have any internal or moral incentive to re-capitalize their balance sheets, but will gladly impose their failures upon the general public and the tax payers who bailed them out of their incompetency in the first place.

I applaud minx's new terminology. Oblique Godwin.

[LittleFuzzy]

I reject the characterization that I "ramble" on my attacks toward Big Banks.

On what basis can you ever reject a characterization that you "ramble"?

[GGT]

On what basis can you ever reject a characterization that you "ramble"?

Okay, so I ramble sometimes. Even go off on tangents sometimes. Sometimes I even *gasp* start threads that look like rambling tangents. Is there a real problem with this? What are you comparing me with....your total absence in starting new threads? Your posts aimed at only correcting people?

[wiggin]

Personally, I am absolutely baffled by this response.

Now, granted, I'm not Jewish, so I may be unable to perceive that kind of racism (white privilege hey-oo), but I honestly cannot say I've noticed discussions or attitudes shaped by anti-Semitic feeling. Our Israel thread is mostly to make fun of people frothing about its existence. Granted, I don't personally play too well with 2 of our 3 Jewish luminaries, but that's because of our political differences, and I certainly don't believe theirs are somehow a result of their Jewishness. Nor do I think greed, capitalism or communism are solely Jewish practices/vices/inventions. I sincerely doubt we have members here who do. But maybe I'm just blind? Do we hate on Jews here?

I'm going to ignore the particular point of contention here (CC and GGT going at each other is hardly new, and we all know that CC's debating tactics at time stretch the definition of 'debate') and focus on the underlying question. Do I feel that TWF is antisemitic? No, not particularly, though I would suggest that some of the underlying cultural assumptions/biases of some posters here on particular issues may be rooted in an unspoken cultural antisemitism (just as there are biases rooted in racism, or sexism, or any number of other examples).

That being said, there are people out there in the world - in fact some prominent people in the media - who do use 'bankers' et al as code word for 'Jews', and they're not just in Iran or Egypt or whatever. The tropes against bankers/etc. start to sound awfully similar to the same conspiracy theories in the Protocols, and it makes some people uneasy. So it's not entirely unreasonable for someone to suggest that the broad sentiment in the US and elsewhere that is hypercritical of bankers and associated professions - exemplified by some of GGT's argumentation - might be rooted in an unspoken cultural antisemitism, albeit of a fairly diluted variety. This isn't to suggest that a specific person making that argumentation is antisemitic, or that CC's tactics are even remotely constructive, though.

On the other hand, I feel very uncomfortable making baseless accusations of antisemitism based on pretty flimsy evidence - seeming parallels in argumentation are hardly convincing proof. I feel the word is overused today, in a manner that dilutes its impact when you have real issues of antisemitism to address; I'm a bit unhappy with the ADL frequently for precisely this reason. Furthermore, much of the seemingly antisemitic tropes could be applied to most conspiracy theories that abound in the world, and plenty of them have nothing to do with Jews. So it might be our own cultural bias to make the instant connection to Jews, when in fact it could be connected to any number of other theories about cabals controlling the world.

On a side note of possible interest to you, Nessus, I do think that concerns about perceptions of Jews does affect posting behavior in general. I'm sure that most posters here long ago figured out that either I'm incredibly well-read or I have a particularly extensive knowledge about Judaism, Israel, etc, with the strong implication that I'm Jewish. For a long time at AtariCC, though, I was very cagey about revealing enough information to lead someone to this conclusion; sure, I participated in a lot of Israel threads, but so do a lot of people. My reasoning was that identifying a poster as Jewish colors the way people read and respond to their posts in a very obvious way (in much the same way that being identified as a fundamentalist Christian or devout Muslim would, though for Jews it rarely matters how observant/religious one is). I don't think this is overt or intentional antisemitism, but it definitely is a noticeable difference in the way people are treated. This is also true in real life; I know many religious Jews who refuse to wear obvious identifying features to work (e.g. skullcaps/kippot/yarmulkas) because they are concerned they will be treated differently; often, American religious Jews traveling abroad will intentionally hide their obvious identifying signs for fear of different treatment, and frankly for their safety (yes, including a number of countries in Western Europe).

It's a good thing that in much of the world, overt antisemitism is strongly frowned upon, largely as an outgrowth of the Holocaust. But there's still a 'soft bigotry', if you will, that's very widespread and very pernicious in how Jews are perceived by much of the world, including the 'civilized' parts. It's harder to identify and much harder to combat without seeming like an oversensitive idiot, but it very much exists. Whether it's a problem in this forum is another issue entirely - personally I don't find it to be a huge issue here compared to some other places I've been to. But it definitely exists.

Dreadnaught, Loki, Wiggin: If the Jews did control the banks, you'd tell us, right? We've known you long enough.

If they did, I could really use some cash. Ditto for controlling the media and the government.

That being said, some of the stereotypes are true - for example, a bit of data I saw looked at average household income as a function of membership in various religious institutions (e.g. churches, synagogues, mosques) - Jews were at the top with Asian churches. That doesn't mean Jews are 'rich', but it does mean they tend to have higher educational attainment, higher incomes, etc. They also have other things that correlate with these incomes and help dispel the 'rich' bit - they have very high charitable giving rates (and well-supported community organizations that mostly don't get taxpayer funding), they have higher average family size, the more religious Jews send their children to expensive parochial schools, they tend to concentrate in fairly expensive urban areas, etc. Essentially, they choose to have more expenses even if their incomes are higher, so if one were to look at 'disposable income' per household, I don't know if Jews would come out much higher than anyone else.

[Nessus]

I'm going to ignore the particular point of contention here (CC and GGT going at each other is hardly new, and we all know that CC's debating tactics at time stretch the definition of 'debate') and focus on the underlying question. Do I feel that TWF is antisemitic? No, not particularly, though I would suggest that some of the underlying cultural assumptions/biases of some posters here on particular issues may be rooted in an unspoken cultural antisemitism (just as there are biases rooted in racism, or sexism, or any number of other examples).

That being said, there are people out there in the world - in fact some prominent people in the media - who do use 'bankers' et al as code word for 'Jews', and they're not just in Iran or Egypt or whatever. The tropes against bankers/etc. start to sound awfully similar to the same conspiracy theories in the Protocols, and it makes some people uneasy. So it's not entirely unreasonable for someone to suggest that the broad sentiment in the US and elsewhere that is hypercritical of bankers and associated professions - exemplified by some of GGT's argumentation - might be rooted in an unspoken cultural antisemitism, albeit of a fairly diluted variety. This isn't to suggest that a specific person making that argumentation is antisemitic, or that CC's tactics are even remotely constructive, though.

On the other hand, I feel very uncomfortable making baseless accusations of antisemitism based on pretty flimsy evidence - seeming parallels in argumentation are hardly convincing proof. I feel the word is overused today, in a manner that dilutes its impact when you have real issues of antisemitism to address; I'm a bit unhappy with the ADL frequently for precisely this reason. Furthermore, much of the seemingly antisemitic tropes could be applied to most conspiracy theories that abound in the world, and plenty of them have nothing to do with Jews. So it might be our own cultural bias to make the instant connection to Jews, when in fact it could be connected to any number of other theories about cabals controlling the world.

This is kind of terrible for me to read! In the sense that I honestly don't have anti-Semitic sentiments, but due to my political leanings I must engage in argumentation that can be perceived as anti-Semitic, or even used as anti-Semitic fodder.

Places more reputable than the Rolling Stone have made a convincing argument (to me) that "bankers", or agents in the banking institutions and off-shoots thereof, are mostly responsible for the key elements in the global financial turmoil we're witnessing. So do I have a negative opinion of "bankers", for sure. But my stereotype of the person I envision behind these things is Gordon Gekko, not something out of Dr. Goebbels's movies! I had to look this up, and turns out Michael Douglas is Jewish, so I kinda lost my momentum here, but the point is I view the actions of some of the people in "high places" in a negative light, not their ethnicity.

Finland has a very small Jewish minority (about as much as we have Catholics, I think, don't know for sure), and I simply haven't been exposed to any opinions on the Jewish people, good or bad, to any noticeable degree. At least as a child and youth; reading up on these things is of course enlightening. But I have also made myself more than passingly familiar on some end results of anti-Semitism, and it's not the kind of stuff that improves my opinion on our species. That was partly my question to Dread up-thread; can I be critical of capitalism without engaging in rhetoric bound to be offensive/hostile towards the Jewish people? I'm not that well-read on American anti-Semitism, but I (white privilege again) assume one could be critical of communism without too much anti-Semitism? (I know the former Soviet bloc states have a lot of anti-Semitic tendencies, but I'm unsure whether that's still due to the same sentiments Dr. Goebbels was rousing.)

Then again, I am racist in the average GOP voter way towards the Israel issue; I'm just rooting for the whitest guys in a fight.

On a side note of possible interest to you, Nessus, I do think that concerns about perceptions of Jews does affect posting behavior in general. I'm sure that most posters here long ago figured out that either I'm incredibly well-read or I have a particularly extensive knowledge about Judaism, Israel, etc, with the strong implication that I'm Jewish. For a long time at AtariCC, though, I was very cagey about revealing enough information to lead someone to this conclusion; sure, I participated in a lot of Israel threads, but so do a lot of people. My reasoning was that identifying a poster as Jewish colors the way people read and respond to their posts in a very obvious way (in much the same way that being identified as a fundamentalist Christian or devout Muslim would, though for Jews it rarely matters how observant/religious one is). I don't think this is overt or intentional antisemitism, but it definitely is a noticeable difference in the way people are treated. This is also true in real life; I know many religious Jews who refuse to wear obvious identifying features to work (e.g. skullcaps/kippot/yarmulkas) because they are concerned they will be treated differently; often, American religious Jews traveling abroad will intentionally hide their obvious identifying signs for fear of different treatment, and frankly for their safety (yes, including a number of countries in Western Europe).

It's a good thing that in much of the world, overt antisemitism is strongly frowned upon, largely as an outgrowth of the Holocaust. But there's still a 'soft bigotry', if you will, that's very widespread and very pernicious in how Jews are perceived by much of the world, including the 'civilized' parts. It's harder to identify and much harder to combat without seeming like an oversensitive idiot, but it very much exists. Whether it's a problem in this forum is another issue entirely - personally I don't find it to be a huge issue here compared to some other places I've been to. But it definitely exists.

I don't know how to say this without being incredibly creepy, so I'll just be an honest creep: You're one of the more interesting posters on here for me in large part due to your Jewishness. I mean in the sense that I personally value intellect, intellectualism and science, and you do kinda fit the egg-headed Jew stereotype to a large degree. Of course it isn't as simple as that; you also represent a culture, background and upbringing that is a vast unknown to me (if there's a reasonable comparison to be made between Finland and the US, I'd be a read-up reject from a red-neck family in the South), so that's interesting in and of itself.

In some way it's a queer inverse of the white scholar and the noble savage; you represent generations of scholarly thought and associated culture, and I'm a white-privileged hill-billy who figured out books were fun outside the outhouse, as well. It is a racist motivation to engage with you, in some ways, and there's just no escaping that. But you're also interesting as a person, on your own merits, and IMO a more interesting Jewish poster than Loki or Dread. You three are also most likely the first Jews I ever interacted with!

I can't really change the fact that your Jewish background is interesting to me, and as a result I can't change the way that colours our interactions. But you're also an individual whose opinions and writings I value, alone and as part of the forum, and that has to transcend our differing ethnicity.

I think on some level a vast majority of intelligent people look at others as if they were specimens, because you can't really escape that constant need to analyze everything, this is certainly a theme I encounter time and again when getting drunk with other scientists, so I can't really say whether my racism towards you is motivated by this, or what. Either way, I hope it is something that isn't overly offensive to you.

[Dreadnaught]

Misdirection much, people?

The point is you suggest bankers use nefarious means to influence the purchasing power of non-bankers and by proxy influence the world.

Cain is making the point as offensively as possible, but it's not hard to see what he's saying.