Systematic anti-Semitism at TWF?

[wiggin]

I actually don't look that Jewish stereotypically; my mother is not from a Jewish background, even if her family is from a similar part of Europe. I'm a bit unusual for the Jewish world, actually; I'm blue-eyed and vaguely blond (okay, v. dark blond/light brown now, but when I was a kid I looked like a Nazi), and far taller than most Jews (about 6' 2"/188 cm). I do have a big nose, though! I won't elaborate further, but trust me - people know within moments of seeing me that I'm Jewish.

And pics? Ha. Fat chance.

[Aimless]

Do you look like Jesse Eisenberg?

[wiggin]

*googles* Uh.... no.

[Loki]

Pics needed.

I've never really known how some people can tell if someone's jewish by looking at them. Unless you just mean that you're always sporting a yamaka, I want reference pics.

Every Pole I've come across has managed.

[Enoch the Red]

I actually don't look that Jewish stereotypically; my mother is not from a Jewish background, even if her family is from a similar part of Europe. I'm a bit unusual for the Jewish world, actually; I'm blue-eyed and vaguely blond (okay, v. dark blond/light brown now, but when I was a kid I looked like a Nazi), and far taller than most Jews (about 6' 2"/188 cm). I do have a big nose, though! I won't elaborate further, but trust me - people know within moments of seeing me that I'm Jewish.

And pics? Ha. Fat chance.

I don't know if this is something you've already addressed, or something you are comfortable addressing, but are you what you would consider an observant Jew?

[wiggin]

No going to touch that one. Sorry, chum!

[Enoch the Red]

No going to touch that one. Sorry, chum!

I understand. I was just curious about whether or not the subject had been broached and I had just missed it.

[Draco]

Generally, boys and girls in these communities have effectively zero social interactions (outside of family) until they start dating. Dating is an arranged, highly formalized process whose sole purpose is to rapidly find a suitable spouse. In the most extreme cases, the couple may only meet a handful of times in highly controlled circumstances before their wedding. A much more broadly followed practice in the religious world is for boys and girls to refrain from touching each other at all, even if they can interact socially (talking, etc.). Needless to say, I imagine this can lead to some interesting wedding nights (unfortunately, the quality of sex ed in very religious Jewish communities is poor to nonexistent, meaning that the couple might even be a bit hazy on what they're supposed to be doing).

Wow that's so depressing. "Highly conrolled circumstances" how can some of these people allow their family/parents to control their lives so much? Then again if you've grown up in such an environment, it would be hard to think otherwise. But still, if you've grown up in a Western country, the idea of being an individual and having some personal freedom/privacy would always be in your face (or isn't it?)

A few years ago I found out that my maternal grandmother came from a Jewish background, which I thought was cool Although her family weren't practicing, or even identified as Jews (they had assimilated into the local population, thankfully, coz of WW2 and all).

[wiggin]

Wow that's so depressing. "Highly conrolled circumstances" how can some of these people allow their family/parents to control their lives so much? Then again if you've grown up in such an environment, it would be hard to think otherwise. But still, if you've grown up in a Western country, the idea of being an individual and having some personal freedom/privacy would always be in your face (or isn't it?)

It's a totally different milieu than what you're used to. In the most insular of these communities in both the US and Israel, their first language is not English (or Hebrew), but Yiddish. It's a completely self-contained community that has minimal contact with the outside world, so Western norms don't have much sway there. Even if those parts of the Haredi/Ultra-Orthodox community that have a little more contact with the secular world, they still are extremely distrustful of Western values and norms, believing (with some justice, probably) that Western values are at times antithetical to their own.

While individual preference obviously is given some weight, the marriage market has less to do with 'love' and personal freedom than it has to do with family and community. The 'pedigree' of one's potential mate is important, as is their level of attainment in Jewish learning (for men), generous parents (for women), family, etc. Marriage isn't intended to be antagonistic, but the theory is if two relatively decent and reasonable people make an effort, they can make a marriage work even in the absence of some all-consuming passion. The focus is on children, their rearing/education, good works, etc. This becomes less true with the more 'connected' part of the Haredi world, where people are likely to date around some more (though generally for only a few dates before deciding that there's no compatibility), but the general philosophy is still there.

Frankly, even in the Western world, marrying for love is a very new idea as the 'default'. Perhaps it doesn't work so well, given the ridiculously high divorce rate; if partners came into a marriage without expectations of earth-shattering love, but instead of friendship, companionship, and hard work on both sides to make the marriage work, there would be more happy (or at least stable?) marriages. Or perhaps not. I'm personally not a fan of the Haredi methods of dating/marriage, but I can see the underlying logic at times.

[Draco]

^^I thought as much, about living in 'insular communities', since it's very easy to assimilate into Western society if you're exposed to it on a daily basis. I've known Indians who came from strict Sikh families, but having grown up in Australia, they don't identify with the religion. Then again it depends on just how strict the family is, and how 'insular' the community is.

Frankly, even in the Western world, marrying for love is a very new idea as the 'default'. Perhaps it doesn't work so well, given the ridiculously high divorce rate; if partners came into a marriage without expectations of earth-shattering love, but instead of friendship, companionship, and hard work on both sides to make the marriage work, there would be more happy (or at least stable?) marriages. Or perhaps not. I'm personally not a fan of the Haredi methods of dating/marriage, but I can see the underlying logic at times.

I agree with this It's my view of how a marriage should be conducted if it is to succeed. It's like a business contract where the two parties 'set their terms', agree to work with each other and so on. It would be naive if the two people came into the marriage with such expectations of "earth-shattering love" as you put it, when they don't have the basis of a friendship, of establishing a contract where the two agree to work hard towards a successful union, to communicate often, set common goals, know what they want out of their future and such.

[GGT]

And this is belongs in site discussion? oy.

[Hazir]

Now that we have gone off on this tangent; my oldest brother and sister have repeatedly been asked if they were Jewish. Based on looks mostly. Their slightly darker looks I understand are from some Spanish input into the genes of my family during the Revolt some 400 years ago. Nobody has ever mistaken me for Jewish ever, but surprisingly often people seem to think I am Turkish, despite me being white, bleu eyed and with dark blond hair.

[GGT]

And I'm a blond, blue-eyed American woman whose roots trace back to the Jewetts. So what?

[Flixy]

It's not really dominated by Jews anywhere other than Israel; even in the US, Jews are only disproportionately represented, but hardly dominating. It's all a matter of numbers.

Sorry, the 'crawling' got my imagination running

It could be a US thing identity-wise, at least... that whole 'mosaic' thing instead of a 'melting pot'. That's what you get from a nation of immigrants.

Could be!

Hehe. I didn't mean to imply I actually had much money (I don't), but if I'm going to drop a whole bunch of disposable income on a country that won't accept me as I am. Voting with my feet and dollars is the only way to register my displeasure. (edit: it's quite a conundrum, actually, for the large numbers of Jews who visit Eastern Europe to see the death camps, ghettos, etc. in countries with virulent antisemitism like Ukraine or Poland. They're providing quite a bit of tourist income to a country that no one would visit otherwise, despite the fact that these countries still didn't learn much from the events of WWII. But on the other hand, it's important that these events and sites be remembered...)

It didn't imply to me you have a lot of money, it's just the way of thinking - I would sooner say they weren't worth my time/effort/whatever, not worth my money isn't the phrasing I'd use (nor what I'd think of first). I mean, it all means the same in the end, but it's the emphasis. I've seen the same phrasing more from other US posters here, it's always amused me!

This is going rather far afield from the original topic, but since it looks like no one else cares, I'll keep on with it. The clothing thing is a quaint anachronism that has little to no real religious significance (other than concerns of modesty, which can be met with more 'modern' clothes just as well), but it's not really crazy in and of itself, no. As for the girl thing:

Yes, some Haredim/Ultra-Orthodox have pretty strict rules about mixing of the genders (and pretty strict dress codes for both men and women). Generally, boys and girls in these communities have effectively zero social interactions (outside of family) until they start dating. Dating is an arranged, highly formalized process whose sole purpose is to rapidly find a suitable spouse. In the most extreme cases, the couple may only meet a handful of times in highly controlled circumstances before their wedding. A much more broadly followed practice in the religious world is for boys and girls to refrain from touching each other at all, even if they can interact socially (talking, etc.). Needless to say, I imagine this can lead to some interesting wedding nights (unfortunately, the quality of sex ed in very religious Jewish communities is poor to nonexistent, meaning that the couple might even be a bit hazy on what they're supposed to be doing).

I want to emphasize that most Jews aren't like this but it is a notable minority.

I know they aren't. I grew up in an area with a sizable Reformed christian community, which is pretty strict, in case you don't know. It has some amusing side effects, such as a market for installing TV antennas that can't be seen from the outside (having a TV connection is not done, of course), and things like that. And the bus I have to take is often crowded with school kids who have to travel an hour to their school, because their parents don't consider the local schools Christian enough. And the girls all wear (long ish) skirts, always. And, if you take a map of the Netherlands, if you colour the areas with reformed communities and areas that have outbreaks of infected diseases, they are awfully similar because they don't want vaccinations.

Pics needed.

I've never really known how some people can tell if someone's jewish by looking at them. Unless you just mean that you're always sporting a yamaka, I want reference pics.

Considering how often people think I am either Jewish or Muslim, but am neither, they're not that great at it, apparently! I mostly have a slightly darker skin, and curly dark hair, and apparently that's enough to have complete strangers walk up to you and ask where you are from.

It's a totally different milieu than what you're used to. In the most insular of these communities in both the US and Israel, their first language is not English (or Hebrew), but Yiddish. It's a completely self-contained community that has minimal contact with the outside world, so Western norms don't have much sway there. Even if those parts of the Haredi/Ultra-Orthodox community that have a little more contact with the secular world, they still are extremely distrustful of Western values and norms, believing (with some justice, probably) that Western values are at times antithetical to their own.

While individual preference obviously is given some weight, the marriage market has less to do with 'love' and personal freedom than it has to do with family and community. The 'pedigree' of one's potential mate is important, as is their level of attainment in Jewish learning (for men), generous parents (for women), family, etc. Marriage isn't intended to be antagonistic, but the theory is if two relatively decent and reasonable people make an effort, they can make a marriage work even in the absence of some all-consuming passion. The focus is on children, their rearing/education, good works, etc. This becomes less true with the more 'connected' part of the Haredi world, where people are likely to date around some more (though generally for only a few dates before deciding that there's no compatibility), but the general philosophy is still there.

Frankly, even in the Western world, marrying for love is a very new idea as the 'default'. Perhaps it doesn't work so well, given the ridiculously high divorce rate; if partners came into a marriage without expectations of earth-shattering love, but instead of friendship, companionship, and hard work on both sides to make the marriage work, there would be more happy (or at least stable?) marriages. Or perhaps not. I'm personally not a fan of the Haredi methods of dating/marriage, but I can see the underlying logic at times.

While I don't agree with it, I can also see the logic. Reminds me of an anecdote the prof told me during a session on cultural differences. At another session, there had been an Indian girl. In the past, she would have an arranged marriage with a partner selected by the parents. Times have changed: now her parents chose three candidates, and she picked one. Obviously the western students in the room disapproved of that, but she actually liked it - she still had a degree of choice, and her parents picked suitable, nice, goodlooking candidates who could provide for her; where as us westerners spend years and years loking for that one perfect person, and even if we do find them and get married we often divorce.

[wiggin]

Sorry, the 'crawling' got my imagination running

Of course, 5 of the 7 science Nobels this year went to Jews, so maybe I shouldn't be too hasty. There's probably about even chances on the economics Nobel going to a Jew, also.

It didn't imply to me you have a lot of money, it's just the way of thinking - I would sooner say they weren't worth my time/effort/whatever, not worth my money isn't the phrasing I'd use (nor what I'd think of first). I mean, it all means the same in the end, but it's the emphasis. I've seen the same phrasing more from other US posters here, it's always amused me!

Yeah, probably first due to American market-oriented thinking. The way I think about it, people in a xenophobic/antisemitic country couldn't care less if I spend time or effort on their country (what does it matter to them?), but they definitely benefit if I spend money on them.

While I don't agree with it, I can also see the logic. Reminds me of an anecdote the prof told me during a session on cultural differences. At another session, there had been an Indian girl. In the past, she would have an arranged marriage with a partner selected by the parents. Times have changed: now her parents chose three candidates, and she picked one. Obviously the western students in the room disapproved of that, but she actually liked it - she still had a degree of choice, and her parents picked suitable, nice, goodlooking candidates who could provide for her; where as us westerners spend years and years loking for that one perfect person, and even if we do find them and get married we often divorce.

Yeah, I can see the logic as well. And there's actually a significant problem in the more modern parts of observant Judaism where Western mores have made serious inroads: too many singles. Since religious Jewish life revolves around the family, a large population of fairly old (late 20s/early 30s) singles is a significant issue that hasn't been adequately addressed. In certain communities (notably the Upper West Side of Manhattan and the 'Bitzah' in Katamon, Jerusalem), there are entire groups of singles who get 'stuck' in singles communities where there's a great deal of dating but not much in the way of actual marriages due to a number of social/etc. factors. So maybe a more pragmatic approach has its points; I don't know.

[Flixy]

Yeah, probably first due to American market-oriented thinking. The way I think about it, people in a xenophobic/antisemitic country couldn't care less if I spend time or effort on their country (what does it matter to them?), but they definitely benefit if I spend money on them.

Sure, I suppose we just don't think with our money as much (if you understand what I am trying to say ). Similarly, I have a feeling that over here money has less of an influence like that. E.g. the famous 'customer is king' as long as he has money is somewhat less true here, if a customer is an ass I think he'd be more likely to be refused service here, even if he is loaded, than in the US. And the other way around, if you are nice, you can get a lot done even if you have no money. For example, I was producer of a short film and we were very short on cash. Simple being nice and asking politely got us a lot of free stuff though, managed to keep the entire production under €6000 Fun thing I noticed, the more southern you go here, the more you can get done without money but by establishing a sort of relation with them. For example, in the Netherlands we approached a lot of breweries etc. for some sort of sponsorship, got a no each time because it's against company policy. Called the French contact for Jack Daniels, he again said no, because it's again against company policy, but then he still sent us some 'samplers', which was €300 worth of whiskey As long as we would not show them on the credits at the end.

That said, I doubt most people working in tourism are that xenophobic, and they'd be hurt the most. I doubt the average antisemitic football hooligan working in construction or something would personally give a rats ass if you don't visit his country. In fact, he might be happy about it. The hurting isn't direct, after all.

Yeah, I can see the logic as well. And there's actually a significant problem in the more modern parts of observant Judaism where Western mores have made serious inroads: too many singles. Since religious Jewish life revolves around the family, a large population of fairly old (late 20s/early 30s) singles is a significant issue that hasn't been adequately addressed. In certain communities (notably the Upper West Side of Manhattan and the 'Bitzah' in Katamon, Jerusalem), there are entire groups of singles who get 'stuck' in singles communities where there's a great deal of dating but not much in the way of actual marriages due to a number of social/etc. factors. So maybe a more pragmatic approach has its points; I don't know.

I do know I would not e happy with it, the way I am now. But if I were raised like that, I probably wouldn't mind. I think a more pragmantic approach definitely has its points, but if I weigh it all, I prefer my freedom to choose. On the flipside, that means I am single now

[Dreadnaught]

That said, I doubt most people working in tourism are that xenophobic, and they'd be hurt the most.

Arguably people who work in tourism hate foreigners the most because they have to deal with them as part of their day-to-day job.