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Thread: Voter Photo ID -- Is It Really Terrible?

  1. #361
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I never said you do there! Where did I say "in America you can get ID you can use to vote by going to a British government's website"?

    I never pretended that the UK was a paperless society, I said that where possible going into an office should not be necessary.

    I never said the Alabama system was like yours, I used ours as a counter example that I'm familiar with where lessons can be drawn.

    So everyone of your alleged lies are for things I never said in the first place. You're angry at straw men.

    I said that if there is a desire to get photo ID to be easily available then that can be done and the system should be improved. Furthermore that improvement should be done BEFORE you demand ID from voters.
    They DON'T want id to be easily available for those people. That's the entire point!
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  2. #362
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Which I've said is sickening. Why take that out on me though?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #363
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    It's only essentially wrong if you provide the counter factual percentage of those who drive 2 hours. Especially it you're disregarding the difference between can't and don't.
    Well, let's put it this way. Two of the main groups represented in the 'not on the internet' group are the old and the poor. Where do you think they sit in the hypothetical 'able to drive 2 hours to get photo ID' pie chart?
    If you tolerate this, then your children will be next.

  4. #364
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    I think they would struggle to drive 2 hours, so getting online, perhaps with the assistance of a relative would be easier. You?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #365
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Me, I think there might be some other options beside 'makee it online only' or 'drive two hours'
    If you tolerate this, then your children will be next.

  6. #366
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    I didn't say online only. I said online as an option - in addition not instead of alternatives such as in person or by post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #367
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    "Voter suppression didn't work/happen in this one specific election under unprecedented circumstances, therefore it's nothing to worry about" - Dreadnaught

    "But we need to worry about voter fraud, and take steps to combat it, even though there's no evidence it actually takes place on any great scale" - Also Dreadnaught
    Which election are you referring to?

    If we assume you're right that voter suppression is rampant (it's not), strong and clear voter ID laws would make it easier to vote by removing some of the morass and vagaries that make voting in the US just plain confusing and for some people here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    As for fraud etc, you're right, it is already illegal, but that's clearly not sufficient for those who demand increasingly stringent voting laws.
    As for shooting people etc, you're right, it is already illegal, but that's clearly not sufficient for those who demand increasingly stringent gun laws.

  8. #368
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Which election are you referring to?
    The Alabama one.

    If we assume you're right that voter suppression is rampant (it's not), strong and clear voter ID laws would make it easier to vote by removing some of the morass and vagaries that make voting in the US just plain confusing and for some people here.
    Why do you have to be so tiresome? Do you think you're being clever?

    1) The issue isn't whether voter suppression is rampant or not (I have no idea about the true extent of it), the issue is whether or not these policies are designed to make it so it can be rampant. Specifically, they will give corrupt local/state politicians more tools to play with, as in the examples earlier in this thread with the closure of all the places you can get ID in democrat areas.
    2) What morass of varies will be clarifying by adding a requirement for an ID to vote? Give examples. If you're going to argue that adding a requirement to do something where previously there was no requirement is going to somehow make voting easier then you're going to have actually justify your reasoning.
    3) You say some people find voting confusing. Which people, and what do they find confusing? Give examples.
    If you tolerate this, then your children will be next.

  9. #369
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Apparently Dread and the other spokesmen for the GOP find it confusing that black people are still allowed to vote unfettered.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  10. #370
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Which election are you referring to?

    If we assume you're right that voter suppression is rampant (it's not), strong and clear voter ID laws would make it easier to vote by removing some of the morass and vagaries that make voting in the US just plain confusing and for some people here.




    As for shooting people etc, you're right, it is already illegal, but that's clearly not sufficient for those who demand increasingly stringent gun laws.
    This would be clever and persuasive if voter fraud were as common as shootings. As it is, it just looks like another sad violation of rule 12.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  11. #371
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  12. #372
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    I actually have some sympathy for the state's position. I think they act too fast but there is a record-keeping problem there and since there are restrictions on sharing information between various different government organs and people themselves have no legal obligation to keep such organs up to date on their information unless they actually intend to engage in the relevant behavior, purging IS kinda necessary. Skipping just one election should not be the trigger for the process though.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  13. #373
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    In hilarious/ominous news, OJ has announced that he's going to stop looking for the real killer. Kobach couldn't be reached for comment.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  14. #374
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    This bill serves no legitimate purpose unless you think partisan voter suppression is a legitimate goal in and of itself:

    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...nt-voting.html
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  15. #375
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Voting should be simple, easy, and convenient, for the voter! Not too complicated, or mired with so many hoops that the voter gives up, and doesn't vote at all.

    Dread, you might think voter photo ID isn't "really terrible", but you haven't considered how it could easily discourage voting. Call it an unintended consequence.

    I moved recently, within the same state and county, but to a different zip code and township authority. I know my voting place has changed, but I still don't know where I'm supposed to vote. Or if I can only vote at the new polling place after I've gotten a new driver's license with the new address, or should I vote absentee from my old address? Nothing about this has been simple, easy, or convenient. Not even the USPS updating my voter status as I changed my mailing address helped me one whit. If anything, I anticipate a huge hassle....which means I may not vote at all, in the local elections that matter most....and can only hope it's sorted out by 2020

  16. #376
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    The Alabama one.



    Why do you have to be so tiresome? Do you think you're being clever?

    1) The issue isn't whether voter suppression is rampant or not (I have no idea about the true extent of it), the issue is whether or not these policies are designed to make it so it can be rampant. Specifically, they will give corrupt local/state politicians more tools to play with, as in the examples earlier in this thread with the closure of all the places you can get ID in democrat areas.
    2) What morass of varies will be clarifying by adding a requirement for an ID to vote? Give examples. If you're going to argue that adding a requirement to do something where previously there was no requirement is going to somehow make voting easier then you're going to have actually justify your reasoning.
    3) You say some people find voting confusing. Which people, and what do they find confusing? Give examples.
    The issue is taking a common-sense law (you need to identify yourself before you vote) and hyping-up the issue into a veritable civil rights issue. African Americans have higher-than-ever voter participation rates, actually exceeding whites in 2012.

    GGT's post reproduced below is a good example of how people can find voting difficult and confusing. Problems voting in the US are primarily a function of our messy local governance. Fix the local patchwork, and stop fighting common-sense identification requirements promoted by known notable right-wing racists such as Jimmy Carter.


    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Voting should be simple, easy, and convenient, for the voter! Not too complicated, or mired with so many hoops that the voter gives up, and doesn't vote at all.

    Dread, you might think voter photo ID isn't "really terrible", but you haven't considered how it could easily discourage voting. Call it an unintended consequence.

    I moved recently, within the same state and county, but to a different zip code and township authority. I know my voting place has changed, but I still don't know where I'm supposed to vote. Or if I can only vote at the new polling place after I've gotten a new driver's license with the new address, or should I vote absentee from my old address? Nothing about this has been simple, easy, or convenient. Not even the USPS updating my voter status as I changed my mailing address helped me one whit. If anything, I anticipate a huge hassle....which means I may not vote at all, in the local elections that matter most....and can only hope it's sorted out by 2020
    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Apparently Dread and the other spokesmen for the GOP find it confusing that black people are still allowed to vote unfettered.
    I wouldn't expect you to stoop to such a vile slur.

  17. #377
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Neither would I until he spent a whole night calling me a "lying little weasel" for saying it's ridiculous in the 21st century in America that you need to take a day off to go to the DMV to get Photo ID and daring to suggest that you should make it easier to get ID and that for comparison we can get photo ID online or by post here; he continued to post that vile slur for a full evening even after I'd given links showing what I said was 100% true.

    He continued to repeat that insult even after I showed a photo of the government issued Photo ID from our government's own website.

    He continued to repeat that insult even after I explained that that requiring to see government issued ID from people was a part of my job required by law.

    In the end rather than take it back, stop repeating it or apologise he suddenly moved the goalposts to saying I was claiming you could use our ID in Alabama which is of course ludicrous and not what I'd said remotely. I never got an apology either so I wouldn't hold my breath for one.

    EDIT: Oh and something I forgot to mention the other day when he was kicking off about only being able to get the Provisional Drivers License Photo ID and not the Full Drivers License Photo ID online or by post is that the Provisional is legally accepted in the one part of the UK that requires Photo ID by law to vote (Northern Ireland): http://www.eoni.org.uk/Electoral-Ide...-Card-FAQs#q34
    What are the other acceptable forms of photographic identification?

    The following documents are accepted at polling stations as proof of identity:

    A UK, Irish or EEA driving licence (photographic part) (provisional accepted)
    Last edited by RandBlade; 01-10-2018 at 08:44 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #378
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    The issue is taking a common-sense law (you need to identify yourself before you vote) and hyping-up the issue into a veritable civil rights issue.
    This thread is full of discussion and evidence about how this is a civil rights issue. Why don't you go ahead and read it then get back to us when/if you have something sensible to say, how about that?

    If you're trying to tell us that the Republican pre-occupation with non-existent voter fraud actually comes to down to 'But black people are voting!' then we know that already.
    If you tolerate this, then your children will be next.

  19. #379
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    The issue is taking a common-sense law (you need to identify yourself before you vote) and hyping-up the issue into a veritable civil rights issue. African Americans have higher-than-ever voter participation rates, actually exceeding whites in 2012.
    This would be a fair argument if presidents and legislators in the US were elected directly on the basis of nationwide popular vote results. But they're not, so the argument is not persuasive. You should look at effects on turnout and influence at eg. the state level or lower, and compare states with restrictive laws and policies with states that have more permissive ones. If votes are suppressed more in some states than in others, due to restrictive laws and policies, then that should, I think, be regarded as a civil rights issue.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  20. #380
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Good idea. Do you have any figures?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #381
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    This thread is full of discussion and evidence about how this is a civil rights issue. Why don't you go ahead and read it then get back to us when/if you have something sensible to say, how about that?

    If you're trying to tell us that the Republican pre-occupation with non-existent voter fraud actually comes to down to 'But black people are voting!' then we know that already.
    I have, and it's garbage. Claims of civil rights harm are as hypothetical as claims of massive voter fraud. No one knows, because we have a system with obvious holes. Only one side of this debate is using mythical claims of voter suppression impact to stop progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    This would be a fair argument if presidents and legislators in the US were elected directly on the basis of nationwide popular vote results. But they're not, so the argument is not persuasive. You should look at effects on turnout and influence at eg. the state level or lower, and compare states with restrictive laws and policies with states that have more permissive ones. If votes are suppressed more in some states than in others, due to restrictive laws and policies, then that should, I think, be regarded as a civil rights issue.
    It's hard to do controlled studies on this, and you know it. Nonetheless, it's not hard to make a commonsense case that fair, monitored elections where votes are cast by properly identified people is going to suppress voters. I mean, is there anything more farcical than this NYTimes article struggling to call voter ID laws racist while explaining strong black turnout?

    If we take as truth the study in this article, less than 10% of voters lack appropriate ID. US voter turnout is hardly ever more than 50%. The primary limitation on voter turnout in the US is voter enthusiasm. Voter ID Akbar.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/24/u...g-blacks-.html

    Black Turnout in Alabama Complicates Debate on Voting Laws
    By ALAN BLINDER and MICHAEL WINES
    DEC. 24, 2017

    MONTGOMERY, Ala. — Even before a defiant Roy S. Moore stood at a lectern this month and refused to concede the Alabama Senate race, one political reality was clear: An extraordinary turnout among black voters had helped push Doug Jones to a rare Democratic victory in this state.

    That turnout, in which registered black voters appeared to cast ballots at a higher rate than white ones, has become the most recent reference point in the complicated picture about race and elections laws.

    At issue, at a time when minorities are becoming an increasingly powerful slice of the electorate, is how much rules like Alabama’s voter ID law serve as a brake on that happening. The turnout by black voters in Alabama raises a question: Did it come about because voting restrictions were not as powerful as critics claim or because voters showed up in spite of them?

    Whether blacks and other minorities vote has become an evermore crucial element in the national political calculus. Minority voters, who lean overwhelmingly Democratic, were 29 percent of eligible voters in 2012 and 31 percent in 2016; by 2020, the figure is expected to rise to nearly 34 percent.

    LaTosha Brown, an Alabama native and a founder of the Black Voters Matter Fund, which backed voter-mobilization efforts in the Senate contest, said the impact of voter suppression in Alabama was real, but that the policies were sometimes a motivating factor.

    “Historically and traditionally, there has been a strong voice of resistance to those that are undemocratic,” she said. “I don’t think that this is new; I think that has always been the role that black voters, particularly in the Deep South, have played.”

    But research, particularly of voter ID laws in Texas, Wisconsin and other states, provides an imprecise picture of how much similar laws suppress turnout. And Eitan Hersh, a Tufts University political scientist who contributed to the analysis of Texas’ strict voter ID law, said research indicated that voter ID laws could alter very close elections but might not be as influential as some critics claim.

    “These laws are complicated to assess,” Mr. Hersh said. “Alabama was a place where there was a lot of campaigning, and when campaigns liven up, you have a lot of mobilization efforts” that could offset the effect of an ID law on turnout.

    Alabama, where a bloody history of battling for the right to vote gave birth to the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and a lawsuit led to the 2013 Supreme Court case that dramatically weakened the law, is seldom described as a model for voting rules.

    Like only 12 other states, Alabama does not permit early voting, which is disproportionately used by minorities and the poor. Its restrictions on voting by people with felony records were recently relaxed, but remain among the nation’s toughest and likely curb black turnout. The state’s voter ID law, which was challenged in federal court, threatened to disenfranchise at least 100,000 registered voters, many of them black or Hispanic, according to the N.A.A.C.P. Legal Defense Fund. And a panel of federal judges ruled this year that 12 state legislative districts had been gerrymandered to dilute African-American voting power. The congressional map is also gerrymandered.

    Since 2010, 23 states, mostly under Republican control, have enacted laws requiring voters to show identification before casting ballots, all in the name of curbing a voter-fraud threat that almost all experts and election officials say is largely mythical. Six states have reduced early voting days or hours, seven have stiffened requirements to register and three states have made it harder for people with felony convictions to regain the right to vote.

    A lawsuit challenging aggressive purging of voter rolls in Ohio, where thousands of legitimate voters have been removed from the rolls, will next month go before the United States Supreme Court; the case could give similar plans a red or green light. The court is also considering arguments over the constitutionality of partisan gerrymandering, which computer technology has turned into an evermore powerful tool.

    On the other hand, in many states, most of them divided or Democratic leaning, access to the franchise continues to expand: Since 2015, nine states have passed laws to automatically register new voters when they interact with government agencies. Colorado, Oregon and Washington have moved almost entirely to mail-in ballots and turnout has bumped upward as a result. Nearly three-quarters of states allow early voting, no-excuse absentee voting, or both.

    In the Alabama vote, there were reports of scattered troubles, including technology problems, voter ID disputes, issues with voters improperly classified as inactive and long lines at many polling places.

    But the gravest fears of Alabama’s critics were not realized. Some of that reflected years of advocacy by voting rights groups, including the concerted pushback that led the state, in 2015, to back away from a plan to close 31 driver’s license offices in rural areas, many of them predominantly black.

    Alabama’s secretary of state, John H. Merrill, said allegations of irregularities, from the left and right, in the Dec. 12 election were not borne out. “It’s just people making things up, and they think they can because of what they’ve observed that happened before or what our history has been,” said Mr. Merrill, a Republican.

    Still unclear is what role voting restrictions, including voter ID, are playing on turnout here and elsewhere. Exit polls are preliminary, but the ones available in Alabama suggest the share of blacks who cast ballots — roughly 41 percent of the African-Americans voters — exceeding the 35 or so percent of whites who turned out. The divide likely reflects a robust black turnout and modest participation from whites who were unenthusiastic about Mr. Moore, whose already-controversial candidacy was dogged by accusations of sexual misconduct.

    One recent academic study concluded that the historic turnout gap between white and minority voters increased sharply — as much as fivefold — in states with the strictest voter ID laws, producing a “clear partisan distortion” favoring Republicans.

    In Texas, where federal courts have invalidated parts of one of the nation’s toughest ID laws, a detailed analysis concluded that 3.6 percent of white registered voters in Texas lacked any legally acceptable ID — and 5.7 percent of Hispanic voters, and 7.5 percent of African-Americans. But among more likely voters who cast ballots in the 2010 and 2012 elections, only 1.4 percent lacked a valid ID. An estimated 600,000 registered voters lacked a photo ID that qualified them to vote under the law.

    Still other studies in Texas and Wisconsin concluded that confusion over voter ID laws meant that more people who actually had valid IDs but believed they did not stayed home on Election Day than did voters who actually lacked identification.

    The Wisconsin study suggested it was mathematically possible — though far from certain — that the number of voters who stayed home in the 2016 general election exceeded Donald J. Trump’s 22,748-vote margin of victory there. Some critics of voter restrictions took that as proof of the impact of such laws, but among scholars, caution is more the rule.

    “It depends on where, and it depends on who,” said Justin Levitt, a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles who also oversaw voting-rights issues in the Obama administration Justice Department. “There are real, live instances where positions are taken to keep eligible people from showing up at the polls or to make it needlessly harder to vote. But it’s not nationwide, and it’s not all the time.”

    Benard Simelton, the president of the Alabama branch of the N.A.A.C.P., said he believed that the voter ID law had led some people, many of them poor, to stop trying to participate in elections at all.

    “As long as that’s a requirement, what are people to do if they haven’t been able to obtain the required voter ID?” Mr. Simelton said. “My gut tells me that people who don’t have it have given up.”

    Some voting rights advocates stress that the relevant measure should be whether people were unable to vote, not whether particular policies determined the outcome of the election.

    “Voter suppression might not be attributable in every instance to changing an election outcome, but it’s significant to people who have barriers in front of them at the ballot box,” said Myrna Pérez, the deputy director of the democracy program at the Brennan Center for Justice at the New York University School of Law. She added: “The country is going to be poorer if we only care about voter suppression when it affects the outcome.”

    The outcome, however, is increasingly the standard by which voting-rights cases are decided. The Supreme Court’s Shelby County v. Holder decision, which dramatically scaled back the Voting Rights Act, relieved scores of states and local governments with a history of bias from the need to prove that new election rules did not discriminate. Since 2013, the burden of proving discrimination — and the cost of detecting and litigating it — has been shifted to minority voters and the groups that represent them.

    To many, that’s a standard that rankles.

    “I do think that very committed, focused people will find a way” to cast ballots, said Ms. Brown, the co-founder of the Black Voters Matter Fund. ”But is that fair? If you put a rock on my foot and I beat you in the race, that still doesn’t make it O.K. that you put a rock on my foot.”

  22. #382
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I have, and it's garbage. Claims of civil rights harm are as hypothetical as claims of massive voter fraud. No one knows, because we have a system with obvious holes. Only one side of this debate is using mythical claims of voter suppression impact to stop progress.
    So, the part where a Republican suggested the closure of DMV offices in black parts of Alabama didn't set off any alarm bells? Even little ones?
    If you tolerate this, then your children will be next.

  23. #383
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Voter Photo ID in itself as a concept is not terrible.
    Voter Suppression is terrible.
    Elements in the American GOP are terrible.

    Is that a fair enough summary?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  24. #384
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Dread, in case you missed it, I feel like my "right to vote" is being limited or infringed upon. And I'm a college-educated white person in the upper income quintile. If I find it hard to vote, imagine what that means for everyone else.

    If the problem is "messy local governance", or a "local patchwork", then you're advocating for national/federal ID standards. The kind that accepts military recruits without US citizenship. Think about that for a minute. Do you really think it should be easier to enlist in the military than vote?

  25. #385
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Considering the majority of Americans vote I struggle to understand what you're struggling with or feel is being infringed upon?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #386
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Considering the majority of Americans vote I struggle to understand what you're struggling with or feel is being infringed upon?
    The majority of Americans don't vote. The eligible participation rate is less than 50%. We have pretty horrible voter numbers, in general.

    I'm complaining that voting isn't as easy or simple as it should be. In theory, I'm the demographic that shouldn't find voter photo ID cumbersome or difficult, but I'm saying that in reality, it is!

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