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Thread: Voter Photo ID -- Is It Really Terrible?

  1. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I don't understand this one.

    It seems to be about names not being spelt exactly the same. This is something I can relate to as both my forename and surname have multiple spellings and most of the time if someone else writes my forename they do so incorrectly. It pisses me off if it is misspelt so I always spell it out.

    But I would imagine for both identification purposes and for applying to vote you fill in the paperwork yourself? So surely you'd spell your own name consistently? I would think numbers who can not spell their own name are very slim. I don't understand where these 50k errors are coming from unless third parties are getting involved?
    This "exact match" requirement is more strict than what we require for US passports. Which is ridiculous. It disproportionately effects non-whites and those that do manage to make it to the polls will still have their votes "approved" during counting. It's your standard GOP bullshit of trying to steal yet another election.

    I'm surprised they are going through this much effort. Last time they simply faked the numbers and destroyed the data, against court order, and it all got swept under the rug.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  2. #392
    Close election by the looks of it.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  3. #393
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  4. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I don't understand this one.

    It seems to be about names not being spelt exactly the same. This is something I can relate to as both my forename and surname have multiple spellings and most of the time if someone else writes my forename they do so incorrectly. It pisses me off if it is misspelt so I always spell it out.

    But I would imagine for both identification purposes and for applying to vote you fill in the paperwork yourself? So surely you'd spell your own name consistently? I would think numbers who can not spell their own name are very slim. I don't understand where these 50k errors are coming from unless third parties are getting involved?
    Well, I can tell you right off that if there is any computer entry involved, than things like hyphens can cause problems because plenty of digital entry media (like the pin-pads my company uses for taking applications for store charge accounts) don't have a key for hyphens. It also might or might not let you include a space for multi-word surenames so multiple forms of, say, De La Rosa abound. Does the software just auto-capitalize everything? Another source for discrepancies. More than 12 or 16 characters? Better hope there isn't a limit on the entry field.

    There are a lot of ways for discrepancies to show up. A diligent person who really cares whether their name is entered as De La Rosa rather than dela Rosa or DelaRosa or De la Rosa, etc, speaking the same language as whoever they're interacting with will probably avoid most to all of them. You are apparently such a person. But maybe someone else doesn't really care exactly how the name gets rendered so long as someone can tell what it is, particularly when transliteration is an issue ("there's an accent on the E but how the hell do I do an accent on this thing?"?) Maybe there's confusion over the use of "last name" when what is actually meant is "legal surename." Maybe they can't really understand the thick accent of the guy behind the desk and just let it go. And that's not even beginning to address the issues caused by legal name changes and multiple databases.

    I know exactly where those 50k errors are coming from. The same place as subjective application of voter registration requirements under Jim Crow. Do they look/sound white and are registering for a well-off and Republican-leaning neighborhood? Than I'm sure there's not REALLY a discrepenacy. Is their name Shaquille Latoya, or are they registering from a neighborhood on the wrong side of the tracks? Well, then the ink is smudged and you just can't REALLY tell if that's supposed to be a B or a D. And there's no telling whether that's a dot on a lower-case I or a rather short lower-case L. Better toss it in the discrepancy pile. At least until after the guy running our whole agency wins election.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Well, I can tell you right off that if there is any computer entry involved, than things like hyphens can cause problems because plenty of digital entry media (like the pin-pads my company uses for taking applications for store charge accounts) don't have a key for hyphens. It also might or might not let you include a space for multi-word surenames so multiple forms of, say, De La Rosa abound. Does the software just auto-capitalize everything? Another source for discrepancies. More than 12 or 16 characters? Better hope there isn't a limit on the entry field.

    There are a lot of ways for discrepancies to show up. A diligent person who really cares whether their name is entered as De La Rosa rather than dela Rosa or DelaRosa or De la Rosa, etc, speaking the same language as whoever they're interacting with will probably avoid most to all of them. You are apparently such a person. But maybe someone else doesn't really care exactly how the name gets rendered so long as someone can tell what it is, particularly when transliteration is an issue ("there's an accent on the E but how the hell do I do an accent on this thing?"?) Maybe there's confusion over the use of "last name" when what is actually meant is "legal surename." Maybe they can't really understand the thick accent of the guy behind the desk and just let it go. And that's not even beginning to address the issues caused by legal name changes and multiple databases.

    I know exactly where those 50k errors are coming from. The same place as subjective application of voter registration requirements under Jim Crow. Do they look/sound white and are registering for a well-off and Republican-leaning neighborhood? Than I'm sure there's not REALLY a discrepenacy. Is their name Shaquille Latoya, or are they registering from a neighborhood on the wrong side of the tracks? Well, then the ink is smudged and you just can't REALLY tell if that's supposed to be a B or a D. And there's no telling whether that's a dot on a lower-case I or a rather short lower-case L. Better toss it in the discrepancy pile. At least until after the guy running our whole agency wins election.
    Tell me again how bad a register held by the government is again?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  6. #396
    Let's not forgot that the guy who makes the ultimate determination on these cases is running for governor. A tremendous conflict of interest.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  7. #397
    The new GOP slogan is "Recusals are for pussies."
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  8. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Tell me again how bad a register held by the government is again?
    I don't have a big problem with a register held by the government. But this "policy" is a type of "zero-tolerance" rule and while we haven't talked about those much lately I'm no more impressed with those than I was before. It is not possible nor reasonable to insist on the complete sanitization of a system with hundreds of thousands or millions of entries all with multiple accepted sources for valid registration. For a democracy to function, voting has to be accessible. I'd say that things like this are fetishizing making voting secure over it being functional but it's not actually about security anyway. As the others have said it's about disenfranchisement of voters who might not support specific candidates or slates of candidates.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  9. #399
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    So, continue with the chaos that actually enables those who want to suppress minority voting? I am surprised at Americans insisting they can’t do what India is capable of doing.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  10. #400
    It's not about competence—it's about safeguarding the right to passively choose slavery. There are many (self-interested) rationalizations for why it's better for the state and for the nation and for the people to restrict voting. That it might be unfair to restrict voting in such a way that those harmed by the restrictions cannot easily vote to increase their freedom does not bother the (steadily shrinking) majority.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  11. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It's not about competence—it's about safeguarding the right to passively choose slavery. There are many (self-interested) rationalizations for why it's better for the state and for the nation and for the people to restrict voting. That it might be unfair to restrict voting in such a way that those harmed by the restrictions cannot easily vote to increase their freedom does not bother the (steadily shrinking) majority.
    Suppression of the right to vote is easiest when individual officials do the calling on who is an eligible voter and who isn't. The problem isn't in the photo ID, but in the chaotic rules about what is sufficient indentification. I am pretty certain that in a Swedish polling station my 'swedish' looks wouldn't get me a chance to cast a vote in your national elections, nor would your 'Bengali' looks be sufficient to stop you from casting a vote in the same elections. How is it that America does have a problem if similar people show up in their elections?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  12. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    So, continue with the chaos that actually enables those who want to suppress minority voting? I am surprised at Americans insisting they can’t do what India is capable of doing.
    At this point I'm not sure what you're saying considering the context is that they're replies to my posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It's not about competence—it's about safeguarding the right to passively choose slavery. There are many (self-interested) rationalizations for why it's better for the state and for the nation and for the people to restrict voting. That it might be unfair to restrict voting in such a way that those harmed by the restrictions cannot easily vote to increase their freedom does not bother the (steadily shrinking) majority.
    The one measure restricting voting I can kinda get behind (but not the way it usually gets implemented which is straight voter-suppression) is purging the rolls. Usually they do it with elections coming up to try and deter some elements from voting and that's ridiculous. If you want to remove no-longer-valid entries, the time to do it would be not long AFTER an election. Probably send out letters in the six months prior soliciting confirmation that the registrant is still active at their listed address and warning that due to inactivity, discrepancies, apparent duplication, etc. that they will be removed at the end of the current cycle and would have to re-register to vote in subsequent elections without it. I wouldn't have a problem with a system where registration needs to be renewed periodically like most licenses either.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  13. #403
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    The obvious solution is ending the situation in which citizens on the basis of haphazard regulations are obligated to identify themselves with equally haphazard methods of identification.

    The message is: set up a bloody civil register and issue citizens with free ID-cards that can be used for any situation. A happy side effect is that you know ahead who is a voter. And that you no longer easily can suppress minority votes.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  14. #404
    Identification is not and never has been a real issue, it's an invented problem. "Fixing" that imaginary problem doesn't do squat. And while I don't have a problem with a national id, just how is it that a federal id is supposed to be capable of establishing local residency which is what the electoral system is built on? It lets you know ahead who is a potentially eligible citizen, not who is a voter.

    Fun fact: There is no automatic right to vote from being a US citizen. The Constitution and its amendments merely lay out criteria which states are forbidden from using to deny voting eligibility. Currently, that is denial based on age over 18, sex, failure to pay taxes (federal elections only), and race/color/prior condition of servitude. If an individual state wanted to, it would be within its authority to re-emplace a property-owning requirement, although it would only apply to new registrations since they can't strip someone's registration without due process and the ex post facto rule would come into play. Individual states can choose to let non-citizens vote too, if they so wanted (Arkansas, the last state to ban such, only did so in 1926).
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  15. #405
    Aliens can't vote in federal elections (thanks to a federal statute).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Aliens can't vote in federal elections (thanks to a federal statute).
    But if a state wanted to go back to allowing them they could be on the local voter rolls and vote in the local, county, state-wide, etc. elections which coincidentally are done at the same time, in the same polling places, using the same ballots. . .

    The point being, Hazir is focused on a particular tree (an artificial one, at that) in a forest ecosytem. Identification is not actually an issue and he's making a GGT-proposal to "fix" it.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  17. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    But if a state wanted to go back to allowing them they could be on the local voter rolls and vote in the local, county, state-wide, etc. elections which coincidentally are done at the same time, in the same polling places, using the same ballots. . .

    The point being, Hazir is focused on a particular tree (an artificial one, at that) in a forest ecosytem. Identification is not actually an issue and he's making a GGT-proposal to "fix" it.
    Agreed. The GOP is the issue (along with their enablers in the judiciary). Just reread Shelby County v. Holder. Disgraceful.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Identification is not and never has been a real issue, it's an invented problem. "Fixing" that imaginary problem doesn't do squat. And while I don't have a problem with a national id, just how is it that a federal id is supposed to be capable of establishing local residency which is what the electoral system is built on? It lets you know ahead who is a potentially eligible citizen, not who is a voter.

    Fun fact: There is no automatic right to vote from being a US citizen. The Constitution and its amendments merely lay out criteria which states are forbidden from using to deny voting eligibility. Currently, that is denial based on age over 18, sex, failure to pay taxes (federal elections only), and race/color/prior condition of servitude. If an individual state wanted to, it would be within its authority to re-emplace a property-owning requirement, although it would only apply to new registrations since they can't strip someone's registration without due process and the ex post facto rule would come into play. Individual states can choose to let non-citizens vote too, if they so wanted (Arkansas, the last state to ban such, only did so in 1926).
    Theoretically if a state wanted to let non-citizens vote, could a new government in that state strip non-citizens of that right or would the ex post facto rule work there too?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  19. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post

    The one measure restricting voting I can kinda get behind (but not the way it usually gets implemented which is straight voter-suppression) is purging the rolls. Usually they do it with elections coming up to try and deter some elements from voting and that's ridiculous. If you want to remove no-longer-valid entries, the time to do it would be not long AFTER an election. Probably send out letters in the six months prior soliciting confirmation that the registrant is still active at their listed address and warning that due to inactivity, discrepancies, apparent duplication, etc. that they will be removed at the end of the current cycle and would have to re-register to vote in subsequent elections without it. I wouldn't have a problem with a system where registration needs to be renewed periodically like most licenses either.
    Good point. Voter registration is the one thing that never needs to be renewed (unlike driver's licenses or passports). If a person never moves or changes residency, but votes sporadically (or not at all) it's pretty hard to sort their eligibility by activity.

  20. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    But if a state wanted to go back to allowing them they could be on the local voter rolls and vote in the local, county, state-wide, etc. elections which coincidentally are done at the same time, in the same polling places, using the same ballots. . .

    The point being, Hazir is focused on a particular tree (an artificial one, at that) in a forest ecosytem. Identification is not actually an issue and he's making a GGT-proposal to "fix" it.
    Hey, please don't use my name that way. If you disagree with Hazir, just state your position and leave me out of it. Thanks.

  21. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Theoretically if a state wanted to let non-citizens vote, could a new government in that state strip non-citizens of that right or would the ex post facto rule work there too?
    Technically ex post facto would still apply. But what that really means here, since we're talking about voting in the future, is that they have to come up with a way that, following all due process, allows them to apply the new requirement on everyone going forward. There is no good way to do that to all state citizens who do not hold property. The state would run into all kinds of hurdles and barriers and it would affect way too many people. It would not be as difficult with non-citizens. You'd have less registered proportionally so it would be a more manageable number and the due process requirements would not be as onerous.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  22. #412
    https://www.kansas.com/news/business...220286260.html

    This is quite sad, but we have to have reasonable expectations of third world countries like, er, Kansas.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  23. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    https://www.kansas.com/news/business...220286260.html

    This is quite sad, but we have to have reasonable expectations of third world countries like, er, Kansas.
    Not to mention what North Dakota is doing to suppress the vote of Native Tribes under new voter ID laws.

  24. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    The left-wing intelligentsia is in an unusual position on the issue of voter ID. Outlets like the New York Times have published editorial after editorial whining about how new state laws requiring photo identification at the polls is a Republican ploy to hurt the Democratic/minority vote.

    Yet most people in the comments of these articles don't buy it, and the laws are otherwise passing without much opposition. I think most of the laws are, in principle, good. At the moment I can legally vote in four different states because of where I registered to vote at a given time. Because I don't need a photo ID, nothing is stopping me from going back and voting in those states again.

    Is there anyone here who thinks requiring photo ID to vote is as bad as it's made out to be and can give some more color to their view?
    So much has changed since your OP in 2011!

    Computerized and integrated data bases would know if you have declared multiple residences, or have more than one state driver's license. No, you can NOT legally vote from four different states for federal elections. But you may be eligible to vote in more than one local election if you're a property owner paying property taxes, depending on state law.

  25. #415
    Here's what I don't understand about Voter Photo ID:

    A PA photo driver's license is valid for 4 yrs. When you move, you're required to get a paper update for change of address, but can still use the old photo DL as official ID. Even if you no longer 'look' the same due to cosmetic changes in weight, hair, or teeth over that 4 year span. It's not like these photos are biometric retinal scans.

    Also, why is so much emphasis placed on Photo ID for in-person voting, when Absentee and mail-in ballots only rely on signatures?


    edit: Signatures also change over time, so what's "on file" may not be a good way to measure identity. And who are these handwriting experts comparing signatures on ballots anyway?
    Last edited by GGT; 11-17-2018 at 03:54 AM.

  26. #416
    It's almost like we have a patchwork of broken voter verification...

    It seems reasonable for states to tie voter registrations to their centralized driver/non-driver ID databases. Even for absentee ballots.

  27. #417
    As long as we remove the financial barrier. $50 for an ID here, and that's bullshit.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  28. #418
    Agreed. It's something like $80 in NY...more if you want a Real ID that will let you through airport security in 2020

    Something of a side-note is banks are trying to form partnerships with state department of motor vehicles for this data. Getting the banks to fund state ID expansion/delivery programs seems like a win-win for the banks and states.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/banks-h...dmv-1542018600

    Banks Have a Solution for Their Identity-Fraud Woes: The DMV

    Big banks are enlisting the local DMV in their fight against identity fraud.

    Lenders including JPMorgan Chase & Co., Bank of America Corp. , Wells Fargo & Co. and Citigroup Inc. are looking for ways to link up with databases at state departments of motor vehicles and other government offices to make sure potential customers are who they say they are.

    Motor-vehicle departments are appealing partners for banks as more people are opening accounts online. At the DMV, applicants typically must appear in person, at least initially, with a stack of documents including birth certificates and social security cards that are verified by trained staffers.

    Identity verification, a perennial problem for banks, has taken on greater importance since some high-profile data breaches exposed loads of customer data that fraudsters can exploit to open accounts. Banks also are looking for ways to combat a rapidly growing and particularly vexing scam that involves made-up borrowers.

    If banks can enlist DMV help, they could see big savings. Financial firms globally spent $6 billion on identity-verification technology in 2017, according to consultancy Aite Group, a sum that’s expected to grow to $10 billion by 2021. Branch employees are still sometimes relied upon to gather much of the required documentation to verify a customer’s identity, making it harder for banks to pare physical locations and open more digital accounts.

    The task is especially complicated in the U.S. While many other countries have national IDs, the U.S. relies on a patchwork of state and federal agencies to establish identity. Banks are working with technology vendors and other partners to coordinate their efforts across state lines.

    “DMVs are the largest footprint for in-person identity proofing,” said Matt Thompson, who was recently hired from Capital One Financial Corp. to work on new forms of identification and bank-DMV partnerships for IDEMIA USA. “We can build on that to create a trusted digital identity for people who want it to be known on the internet that they’re not a dog.”

    Privacy concerns may also stand in the way. Banks are wary of being caught up in debates about nationalizing state ID efforts. Some local officials, meanwhile, worry that states will be forced to bear responsibility—and potentially blame—for whatever consequences come from the use of licenses as bank identifiers.

    “We were trying to keep kids from buying beer; now we’re talking about financial transactions using a smartphone and a driver’s license,” said Maine Secretary of State Matthew Dunlap.

    Working with banks could provide a way for DMVs to preserve their role as critical identity gateways, especially in a world where fewer people drive. The fees from such a service could help cover the costs of technology upgrades.

    Iowa Department of Transportation Director Mark Lowe said he regularly talks to financial companies about identity applications.

    “I can’t guarantee in 30 years we’ll be dealing with driving in the same way, but I have a very good sense we’ll be involved in identity management,” he said.

    A group of financial firms including JPMorgan, Wells Fargo and Bank of America earlier this year helped launch the Better Identity Coalition to push state and federal agencies to help them with identity verification. The organization is meeting with officials around the country, according to coordinator Jeremy Grant.

    Banks also have stepped up their efforts to work with the Social Security Administration to check customer information. JPMorgan and Wells Fargo, among others, are working with the agency on ways to identify and cross-check customer information, such as whether a customer is deceased or is an active service member, when accounts are opened digitally, according to people familiar with the matter.

    Congress recently smoothed the path for such partnerships. An overhaul of banking regulations enacted in May included a provision that guaranteed banks’ ability to use a digital image of a driver’s license, which some state laws could have prevented. It also required the Social Security Administration to offer financial firms an electronic database for verifying social security numbers for the purpose of fraud prevention.

    “Digital evolution in banking is fantastic, but along with it has come increased incidence of fraud and identity theft,” said Josh Denney, director of government affairs for BBVA Compass, which helped formulate the license provision in the bill. “The new laws allow us to reach more consumers and also do more to prevent fraud.”

    Some lenders already allow their customers to snap a picture of their license when opening a checking account on a mobile app. But that data isn’t checked definitively against a DMV database. Instead, the image is examined, sometimes by a person, to determine if it has the necessary authentication marks.

    That may not go far enough, said Ian Grossman, vice president at the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators, which represents DMVs. “We know that high-quality counterfeit credentials are in circulation,” he said. “But one thing it will never have is the record at the issuing agency.”

    Bank technology vendors such as Au10Tix Ltd., Mitek Systems Inc. and Socure Inc. already work with banks to scan driver’s license images and record the information.


    Mr. Grossman said AAMVA is also working with vendors on expanding an existing network used by states to verify that a person doesn’t have a license elsewhere.

    Banks would also pay states a fee to use the network. The Better Identity Coalition has also recommended a $200-million-a-year federal grant program to states, though it estimates the total cost of needed upgrades to exceed $2 billion.

    Bringing that network up to speed will require some work. Today, 35 states participate, though not all of those states allow access for nongovernment usage. It is also not clear yet whether the technology can handle the volume of inquiries banks typically require.

    Citigroup and other big banks worked with AAMVA, the Department of Homeland Security and a handful of states about six years ago to pilot an identity-verification service, using licenses and social-security numbers. The effort fizzled without supporting legislation that granted access to social-security data.

    While the legislation passed by Congress in May should prevent more recent efforts from meeting a similar fate, it has its limits. The law requires banks to delete driver’s license images them after using them, making it harder for banks to study identity data or create their own databases using the information.

  29. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Agreed. It's something like $80 in NY...more if you want a Real ID that will let you through airport security in 2020
    I got a postcard for Real ID. Penn DOT wants to see an original or raised seal copy of a birth certificate, a SS card, and 2 proofs of current PA residency (PA driver's license or photo ID card, plus a recent bank statement or utility bill showing name and address) so when it's available in spring 2019 I can apply on-line and avoid the 'rush'.

    It's weird that "proof of identity" (birth certificates and SS cards) doesn't use photos, but the "proof of residency" (state photo ID) does.

    Something of a side-note is banks are trying to form partnerships with state department of motor vehicles for this data. Getting the banks to fund state ID expansion/delivery programs seems like a win-win for the banks and states.
    "Identity Management" is going to be a big business, that's for sure. I'm just not sure if banks can be trusted, given their history of data breaches and privacy violations. (Seriously, Wells Fargo?) Penn DOT doesn't even accept credit or debit cards, so maybe they could start with that!

    Plus, the SSA hasn't done a very good job at cyber security either. I'm not convinced that combining data bases is such a great idea, unless or until the whiz kids in silicon valley can come up with a better idea.

  30. #420
    Oh yeah, and when it comes to voting.....PA doesn't have early voting, and our primaries are closed. Voter ID is just another impediment to voting. ugh

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