Voter Photo ID -- Is It Really Terrible?

[RandBlade]

Driving without a driver's license is illegal, and we all know people who break the law should be thrown in jail.

I don't need to carry my license with me to drive.

[littlelolligagged]

Yes, you need it on you to drive.

Also, to buy cold medicine, at least in Georgia.

[Ominous Gamer]

and target asks me to swipe mine when I buy video games.
The difference is between whats requires an ID by law, when businesses use ID because its the easiest way to stay on the right side of the law, and which are completely voluntary.

Around here, driving without your license on you is a $25 fine (or used to be), and an incredibly long traffic stop as they run all the car information to find your information.

[littlelolligagged]

Well, when business ask for ID because they are required to by law I don't think its voluntary, even though I can choose to buy a decongestant without pseudoephedrine.

[Ominous Gamer]

Well, when business ask for ID because they are required to by law

Thats what I was addressing earlier with Dread. I don't know all the laws, for all the states, but some of the instances that people think "its required" are false. Its simply how that business is run. I wonder, when the last time was Munchin got carded?

EDIT: found the states that require ID for Pseudoephedrine.

[littlelolligagged]

I don't think the differences between states are being addressed here much at all.

Heh, back to voting - while you have to show one of several types of photo ID to vote in person, you don't have to show ID to vote absentee.

[earthJoker]

which means having to purchase one for possibly every 2 out of 3 presidental elections.

Well I suppose it's a matter of minutes to get a new one with a valid old one. At least here it's like that.

not to mention the high mobility rate of the poor, with states requiring a local ID for services.

Now that doesn't sound reasonable to me.

I don't need to carry my license with me to drive.

Well if this is really true for the UK, never do that abroad. Driver licence and car licence should always be at hand while driving.

[RandBlade]

Well if this is really true for the UK, never do that abroad. Driver licence and car licence should always be at hand while driving.

Never knew that. Even when stopped by the Police (as has coincidentally been discussed in another thread), I have never once been asked for my licence. If you get stopped here and ticketed for doing something wrong and they ask for your licence, you have 7 days to present it at court.

What happens if you lose it? Physically. Can you not drive until you have it replaced?

I've lost my wallet with my licence in and not bothered to get it replaced yet.

[earthJoker]

You can get a temporary copy from the desk at your local administration. Also it's not like you will be put in jail. But I think they can charge you for the extra administration work if you don't have your driver licence with you.

[Dreadnaught]

Ironically, left-wingers claim that voter ID laws magically make left-wingers stop voting. Yet it's left-wing votes supporting out-of-control state government unions which arguably make getting a photo ID more expensive and complicated.

[Aimless]

Ironically, left-wingers claim that voter ID laws magically make left-wingers stop voting. Yet it's left-wing votes supporting out-of-control state government unions which arguably make getting a photo ID more expensive and complicated.

Wait, what? I realise criticizing unions makes you tingly but this is a bit of a stretch.

[Ominous Gamer]

magically

no counter argument or proof, just more bullshit 100% D&D approved.

[Aimless]

I have to admit I didn't know that people's responses to increased costs amounted to "magic", I thought it was as close to a natural law you could find in Dread's world Dread, you do realise that costs affect behaviour right? Magic doesn't come into it.

[Dreadnaught]

Wait, what? I realise criticizing unions makes you tingly but this is a bit of a stretch.

Going back to the original post, I find it curious how requiring voter ID is portrayed as a conspiracy to get left-wingers to vote less. The kinds of editorial in the OP tend to go on to make vague claims about how hard it can be to get photo ID.

The irony is any enhanced difficulties/costs getting photo ID are enhanced by left-wing votes which keep state unions in power, which in turn inhibit the efficient delivery of government services. This is why Americans joke about their driver ID/licensing organizations so much (known here as the DMV). They are widely perceived as exemplars of inefficient government. In many states, re-structuring DMVs has taken years, partially because of collective bargaining agreements that make structural reforms difficult for any government agency.

[Aimless]

Well why can't you guys arrive at solutions along the lines of Holland's, or Switzerland's, or Sweden's?

Or, for that matter, something similar to those American states that don't require voter photo IDs?

[Ominous Gamer]

make vague claims about how hard it can be to get photo ID.

except those claims are backed in research and fact (as already provided), and yet you have provided nothing of the sort as a response.

[RandBlade]

Not seen any research or fact yet.

[Aimless]

In the same vein I'd like to see just how big the problem of voter fraud is in the US.

[Ominous Gamer]

Not seen any research or fact yet.

Here is some research for you (pdf)

Of similar note, Aimless' question is also answered. 24 cases of fraud between 2002-2005. Although no state is willing to publish their own numbers.

[Aimless]

But if you think about it this voter tax is a pretty clever scheme


I thought the challenge in Wisconsin was interesting: according to one group, the voter photo ID law is unconstitutional at present because Wisconsin's constitution specifically permits lawmakers to restrict voting rights for twi groups, namely prisoners and the mentally incompetent. There is no mention of a third group, "people who don't have photo ID".

[Aimless]

This is interesting:

http://www.thesunnews.com/2011/07/18...or-couple.html

I gotta say, it almost makes the US seem more charming even though it's a little unfortunate

[Aimless]

The money angle:

http://brennan.3cdn.net/2f0860fb73fd..._zzm6bhnld.pdf




For the incredulous Dread:

http://www.brennancenter.org/content...stands_strong/



Advocacy group of course.

[Catgrrl]

Well I suppose it's a matter of minutes to get a new one with a valid old one. At least here it's like that.

Oh, I wish. Going to the Department of Motor Vehicles is like a punishment. I swear, they must have the crankiest, meanest people working there. I'm sure their employment application asks, "Are you able to be in a bad mood 24/7, and talk to people like they are horrible children?" It seems it's always an hour wait or more for the littlest thing. I've taken to using their internet services when I can.

In my state you renew a license every 5 years; you're allowed to renew it once over the net (or at least it was last time I renewed). It also used to be $12 but I'm unsure if they've upped the price now that the license designs changed recently.

EDIT: It's $4 a year now; that's a weird way of putting it. ID cards are $10 but the website doesn't say how long they are good for?

[Ominous Gamer]

conspiracy.

This is why its so hard to have an honest debate with you. You use these negative vivids all the time for shit you don't agree with or understand. Insane, conspiracy, magic. All this shit that mentally puts you in a superior position, but has no place in the debate. Real world information be damned. This process of yours, most recently seen here and in the protest thread only makes it harder for you to understand the world outside your own reach. To change your mind, or possibly agree to disagree on/in a serious manner, would degrade yourself into the lower position that you put the opposition in before the debate even starts.

I know, I could (and likely should) have put this in the thread you made about a having a more serious debate section. Since this type of behavior is extremely childish, but not directly insultive, and using your previous history on such matters, not something you seem fully capable of controlling/policing. Its only here cause this is the page I was on at the moment.

[RandBlade]

I don't understand the whole DMV debacle, even The Simpsons jokes about it.

Our equivalent, the DVLA, is based in Swansea. When I got my original licence I had to post my documents to them, they posted my licence back. Now it can be done online.

[GGT]

In the same vein I'd like to see just how big the problem of voter fraud is in the US.

Asked a few times now, with no answer. Solving a problem that doesn't exist.

[Dreadnaught]

Saying this is about voter fraud is a complete strawman. The goal is to inject some rationality into our voting process, which at the state level is often a mess. The kinds of systems used to verify eligibility to vote are arcane and silly for a developed country. And the limitations of these systems is an invitation for potential voter fraud (which, incidentally, is difficult to spot because the voting systems can be so weird).

In New York, I can just waltz into a polling station, give my name and address and vote. The only verification is maybe a scan of a signature used when I registered to vote, which itself doesn't look like much. The voter rolls are never validated or purged. So I can also walk into a polling station where I grew up, use my dad's name and do the same thing. Or if my neighbor dies, I can use his name and address. It's silly, and an obvious opening to problems (either accidental or malicious).

Not to mention this dysfunction trickles-down to tallying and verification of votes. In the US we've had a number of very close and difficult elections that revolved around difficult vote counts, which left people feeling uncertain their votes were counted (Florida 2000, Minnesota 2008, Wisconsin 2011).

What aggravates me is the people who complain that getting a photo ID is a burden don't look at why it's a burden, but instead fabricate some kind of injustice that would be visited on people if our voting system revolved around more reliable and regulated ID.

[LittleFuzzy]

Saying this is about voter fraud is a complete strawman.

You say that but then you say

And the limitations of these systems is an invitation for potential voter fraud (which, incidentally, is difficult to spot because the voting systems can be so weird).

and follow it up with

In New York, I can just waltz into a polling station, give my name and address and vote. The only verification is maybe a scan of a signature used when I registered to vote, which itself doesn't look like much. The voter rolls are never validated or purged. So I can also walk into a polling station where I grew up, use my dad's name and do the same thing. Or if my neighbor dies, I can use his name and address. It's silly, and an obvious opening to problems (either accidental or malicious).

for examples of the fraud and and end with

Not to mention this dysfunction trickles-down to tallying and verification of votes. In the US we've had a number of very close and difficult elections that revolved around difficult vote counts, which left people feeling uncertain their votes were counted (Florida 2000, Minnesota 2008, Wisconsin 2011).

historical problems which were either fraud themselves or which are things which a photo id does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT. So explain to me again how saying this is about voter fraud is some kind of straw man? Because if it is, then you're hitting poor Thatch an awful lot.

[RandBlade]

I would say that we should be preventing fraud and the biggest part of the problem is that we under the current system can have very little idea just how much fraud is going on. Its so easy to commit fraud, so difficult to detect, that we simply won't know how much is happening. Given what extremes some people will go to and how passionately partisan many are, I think having a system wide open to abuse is frankly insane.

What aggravates me is the people who complain that getting a photo ID is a burden don't look at why it's a burden, but instead fabricate some kind of injustice that would be visited on people if our voting system revolved around more reliable and regulated ID.

Good point. The issue to be addressing is making it easier to get ID, not simply not requiring it. The main complaint seems to be how difficult it is to get ID, but ID is required for so many walks of life (getting a driving licence, opening a bank account etc) that why should it be so difficult? Why are we only now worried about that?

[Aimless]

Because we don't really see, hear or much care about the elderly, the disabled, the money-less, etc we do however care about politics, formalia, scoring points and other things more relevant to our cushy existence