A thread about objectivism, Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged

[Lebanese Dragon]

Yes?

Would you prefer to be a slave?

I think most would agree he would have a moral obligation to share such technology/wisdom. More than likely many social problems we have today we already have the means to solving them we're just not using them. Fundamentally, we have the tools neccessary to distribute labor, and fruits of labor in a way that breaks down many damaging situations, but we have structural problems preventing this.

So far you haven't described anything that is counter to what Rand believes should be society's standard operating procedure.

From what I understand Rand beleived we OUGHT act toward our own personal wants. If we want to help others we could do that (and we ought do it, according to her, if it helps us in some way)... if we want people to like us then it's okay to lie to them, manipulate them.. or give them the illusion you're being kind, when in reality you only are showing kindness for some personal gain. I think a society could work where everyone is selfish, I just disagree morally with the position. The funniest thing is about the about the philosophy that you Ought to do all things for your own ends... The funny thing and most ironic thing is those who have it can't ever actually be happy. It is a genetically unfullfilling purpose they place on all tasks they do. This is where I'd say Illusions "you're right to use the word hard-wired", it's fairly clear somewhere core to our biology this doesn't work. Even if in theory it could work, in practice it will not. Nessus has run into this problem (even though she's not an objectivist) and many others. Biologically we seek out content outside ourselves.

Luckily for me, I don't have this problem, because my philosophy is totally different and I say luckily because it just so happens to be in sync with my biologically human cravings.

[Enoch the Red]

Because Rand's protagonists and the others like them would be dead after society ignored them. Or at least their standard of living would be reduced to that of what constitutes the poorest parts of Africa (depending on their knowledge and skill in survivalist living). There would be no grand utopia.

Because Rearden jacked up the price of his metal to the point that no one could afford it, hoarding it for himself only? And Taggart sold train tickets only to the most wealthy? And Wyatt squirreled away his oil?

You aren't even close to understanding the motivations of her characters, Illusions.

[Hazir]

How many here have read Das Kapital? I haven't.

Parts, it s not really that interestong a read.

[Hazir]

Am I to understand this book is basically about the not-USSR?

[Draco]

Even if in theory it could work, in practice it will not. Nessus has run into this problem (even though she's not an objectivist) and many others.

No, Nessus and many others (including you) misinterpret the novel and the entire philosophy.

You aren't even close to understanding the motivations of her characters, Illusions.

And they never will, so long as they look at the novel/philosophy through their socialist lens. I think they simply refuse to look into it with a less prejudiced mind, or with a more 'open mind' because deep down inside they're afraid of what they'll find.

So if I invented a miracle cure to all the world's known diseases, and a plan for how to successfully deal with the population boom that will result from implementation of this miracle drug, and demanded 5 Trillion dollars for me to publicly release this information...you'd be cool philosophy-wise with me keeping it to myself and dying with it if nobody could come up with the 5 Trillion dollars to pay me?

You come up with some crazy scenarios. The whole point is that a rational minded person would not come up with a crazy figure as 5 trillion dollars for a miracle cure (unless the means to produce it cost 5 trillion...which is again just fantastical). But, there is a character in Atlas Shrugged (a doctor of sorts), who lives in Galt's Gulch, and Rand styles him as having found some sort of cure, or method to thwart heart attacks long before they happen. I've forgotten the exact details, but he argues that he has no desire to make his discovery known to a world that would expropriate it without giving him the right to offer it as a service to be bought.

I can't believe the level of hate and disapproval I've seen in this thread, directed against Ayn Rand and her philosophy. It really does amaze me that so many of you, who like to fashion yourselves as intellectually minded people, either refuse to understand her philosophy or just outright reject it because of some 'preconceived notions.' And then I'm made out to be the one who's got it all wrong, who doesn't understand other people and their views, or where they're 'coming from' double standards all the way!

[RandBlade]

I niether like the argument that we are somehow determined to be self-centered/selfish nor do I like the argument that we ought be. What a waste of life to live that way.

Yes.

So if I invented a miracle cure to all the world's known diseases, and a plan for how to successfully deal with the population boom that will result from implementation of this miracle drug, and demanded 5 Trillion dollars for me to publicly release this information...you'd be cool philosophy-wise with me keeping it to myself and dying with it if nobody could come up with the 5 Trillion dollars to pay me?

Yes, yes, yes a million times yes. I would petition my government to give you the 5 Trillions Dollars too.

[Draco]

Btw, there's a reason why Atlas Shrugged (along with The Fountainhead) continues to be favourited by countless people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_S...wed_popularity it provides an alternative to the garbage that exists out there, and the empty life that intellectuals whom you all look up to with puppy dog eyes have created.

[Aimless]

Similar arguments are presented in favour of the Bible.

[Nessus]

Okay, I'm gonna give this thermodynamics thing another go.

Wind mills and hydroelectric plants get energy out of the Sun, and the rotation of the Earth, and so on and so forth. The main criticism I've read levied against Galt's engine is that it's supposedly a perpetual motion engine of the second order, which is to say it extracts work out of heat in a way that's contradictory to the 2nd law. (the 2nd law being "you can't break even") Static electricity generated by air currents in the Earth's atmosphere are such high-order terms of the Sun's radiation that they have to be negligible. If Galt got meaningful work out of a system using it, something's gone wrong somewhere, and he'd be much better off with wind mills or hydro-electric plants or whatever. But as Enoch said, it doesn't really matter, I doubt any of us cared that the devices in Half-Life 2 were powered by zero-point energy which is also more or less understood to be impossible. The funny business comes in at the point where internet orcs justify their übermensch moral system by pointing to fictional people using magic to fuel their asshattery. If that's an unfair reading of the book, then I guess I have been amused by a lie.

None of this makes objectivism any less horrible of a philosophy, celebrating the "gilded age" which foresaw, among other terrible things, the rise of Communism. Speaking of which, Draco, your incessant use of the word "intellectuals" in the tone people in various areas tend to reserve for cock-roach, reminds me of Communist propaganda

[Aimless]

So if I invented a miracle cure to all the world's known diseases, and a plan for how to successfully deal with the population boom that will result from implementation of this miracle drug, and demanded 5 Trillion dollars for me to publicly release this information...you'd be cool philosophy-wise with me keeping it to myself and dying with it if nobody could come up with the 5 Trillion dollars to pay me?

You'd probably be going against the rules of your NIH grant if you tried this, unless your fantastic cure is "kill everyone"

[Ziggy Stardust]

Btw, there's a reason why Atlas Shrugged (along with The Fountainhead) continues to be favourited by countless people: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_S...wed_popularity it provides an alternative to the garbage that exists out there, and the empty life that intellectuals whom you all look up to with puppy dog eyes have created.

Loving the irony from someone looking up with puppy dog eyes to a book.

Well played Sir.

And I'm with you! Intellectuals! Pffft! What have they ever done for us eh?

/Ziggy shrugged

[Enoch the Red]

The funny business comes in at the point where internet orcs justify their übermensch moral system by pointing to fictional people using magic to fuel their asshattery. If that's an unfair reading of the book, then I guess I have been amused by a lie.

Perhaps it's because we have different internet environs and move in different circles, but I've never once seen Galt's motor used as justification for or evidence of the superiority of Objectivism, Liberalism, and the Cult of Ayn Rand. That's not to say it hasn't happened, but I haven't ever seen it.

[Nessus]

I think said orcs would offend you, as well

They're uh

Kind of obnoxious

Yes more than me

Look

Fine

I'll get my coat

[Enoch the Red]

I think said orcs would offend you, as well

They're uh

Kind of obnoxious

Yes more than me

Look

Fine

I'll get my coat

I'm not asking you to leave, I'm actually interested in seeing who these people are, and what they are saying. Can I find these people with a Google search? All I have been able to find has related more to whether or not Galt was obligated to tell 20th Century Motors about his invention, and whether or not he could morally and legally recreate the motor that was likely intellectual property of the same.

[Aimless]

Perhaps it's because we have different internet environs and move in different circles, but I've never once seen Galt's motor used as justification for or evidence of the superiority of Objectivism, Liberalism, and the Cult of Ayn Rand. That's not to say it hasn't happened, but I haven't ever seen it.

I've only seen it in criticism directed towards the book, which I suppose makes it a criticism of the zeal the book it inspires in some. I don't think magic machines should detract from the enjoyment of a novel, but they may make it inappropriate to use that novel as more than entertainment or inspiration.





I thought this quote from Rand was interesting:

"What we have today is not a capitalist society, but a mixed economy – that is, a mixture of freedom and controls, which, by the presently dominant trend, is moving toward dictatorship. The action in Atlas Shrugged takes place at a time when society has reached the stage of dictatorship. When and if this happens, that will be the time to go on strike, but not until then."[26]

So I wonder, is it time to go on strike? Will it ever be time?

[Crowheart]

So if I invented a miracle cure to all the world's known diseases, and a plan for how to successfully deal with the population boom that will result from implementation of this miracle drug, and demanded 5 Trillion dollars for me to publicly release this information...you'd be cool philosophy-wise with me keeping it to myself and dying with it if nobody could come up with the 5 Trillion dollars to pay me?

Yes, absolutely.

Remember it's not about hustling people out of unearned money, it's about getting paid for the value of your work.
The virtue of selfishness is NOT the same as greed.
If your cure is worth 5 trillion dollars, why should you not get paid?
Because we need it, we can just take it from you?

Yes, I'm fine with you keeping your cure if I can't pay you what it's worth, same as I'm fine with the car dealer keeping his Ferrari because I can't pay what it's worth, and the same reason I won't pirate software because I decided they charged too much.

[Nessus]

I'm not asking you to leave, I'm actually interested in seeing who these people are, and what they are saying. Do I find these people with a Google search? All I have been able to find has related more to whether or not Galt was obligated to tell 20th Century Motors about his invention, and whether or not he could morally and legally recreate the motor that was likely intellectual property of the same.

You really want me to point you towards poorly behaving libertarians? (Or randroids, as that's not exactly fair to your beliefs) I, uhh

It's not like we have established codes of conduct over the internet, but I'd feel weird directing you towards random message boards that have at some time or other been interesting to me. And as you can probably guess, these people tend to focus on the asshattery and how objectivism justifies that, while citing going Galt etc to have a moral back-drop which doesn't actually come off as realistic or moral to an audience of non-objectivists. It's not very interesting reading if you're not horribly drunk.

[Enoch the Red]

You really want me to point you towards poorly behaving libertarians? (Or randroids, as that's not exactly fair to your beliefs) I, uhh

It's not like we have established codes of conduct over the internet, but I'd feel weird directing you towards random message boards that have at some time or other been interesting to me. And as you can probably guess, these people tend to focus on the asshattery and how objectivism justifies that, while citing going Galt etc to have a moral back-drop which doesn't actually come off as realistic or moral to an audience of non-objectivists. It's not very interesting reading if you're not horribly drunk.

I'm not as much interested in how they justify their moral asshattery, I'm interested in how they use a clearly fictional MacGuffin to support their beliefs. I wouldn't object to a brief summary if you have the inclination and don't feel comfortable pointing me in the right direction.

[Nessus]

But this was already covered; if one is comfortable with going Galt with all the unsavoury tilling it involves, well there you go. No need for magic.

[Enoch the Red]

But this was already covered; if one is comfortable with going Galt with all the unsavoury tilling it involves, well there you go. No need for magic.

Ah, I thought it was something that was explicitly said, not implicitly understood. My apologies.

[Nessus]

I just express myself poorly; the kids are often on pappa betalar and have no conception of what kind of social darwinism they're actually endorsing, and what it would entail for them. Magic technology isn't a necessary component, as you say.

[Lebanese Dragon]

No, Nessus and many others (including you) misinterpret the novel and the entire philosophy.

Even if in theory it could work, in practice it will not. Nessus has run into this problem (even though she's not an objectivist) and many others. Biologically we seek out content outside ourselves.

That's what i meant. If everyone was an objectivist I do think society would still function, I think neighbors will still be nice to eachother etc... I don't think people would be happy (which ironic for such a philosophy to create that problem.)

[RandBlade]

Charity etc fits in entirely with objectivism.

[Khendraja'aro]

The virtue of selfishness is NOT the same as greed.

I'm not quite sure where you got this to be a "virtue" from.

[Aimless]

In objectivism selfishness is a virtue, perhaps almost the virtue. It's an interesting take.

[Nessus]

Much like your ill-gotten gains, I wonder what the culture of FUCK YOU, GOT MINE thinks of the disabled and mentally underdeveloped.

[Crowheart]

Sorry for being unclear, I should have capitalized Virtue of Selfishness.

"Virtue of Selfishness" is the phrase she often used to describe her philosophy.

[Khendraja'aro]

In objectivism selfishness is a virtue, perhaps almost the virtue. It's an interesting take.

It's a moronic take. We are social creatures. Any attempt to rationalize that away is doomed to fail due to not taking reality into account.

[Crowheart]

Her usage of selfishness is different than the common usage.

A link, if interested:

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/selfishness.html

[Khendraja'aro]

Heh. Even more moronic. "Hey, let's completely forget that humans are partly irrational and partly governed by emotions!"

Which planet was she living on? Because Earth certainly wasn't it.