Ukraine Election

[Asmodian]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe...ons/index.html
Party of Regions is Yanukoviches party not Tymoshenkos, I used to think western media intentionaly misrepresented the facts, now I am starting to believe that they are just fing incompetent when it comes to eastern Europe (as I can’t see the benefit of this particular error).
But Anyway back in 2004, when Americans were celebrating the success of their little investment in Orange revolution, I said it would not last. And now I am here for the obligatory “I said so”. The second round didn’t really matter as both candidates were basically pro Russian, the only pro US candidate, the incumbent Victor Ushenko having finished the race in the first round with 5% of the votes (It was really kind of pathetic that he tried to sound confident of victory in the face of overwhelming reality, to his credit he managed to be quite active in the last weeks of his presidency, drafting plans to join NATO, declaring national holidays to celebrate the formation of Ukraines SS division and granting criminals national hero status, all of which obviously is going to be rolled back now).
Second round was really between two pro Russian candidates with a difference that one was consistently so, and the other adopted the stance because she is a self serving bitch that saw that she had to do an about face to keep it close.
It was always a matter of time as soon as money stopped flowing from US, Ukraine would turn to its traditional ally. Considering that it is pretty much the same people, I was in Kiev in October for a friend’s wedding this October and was pleasantly surprised that everyone spoke Russian, not Ukrainian from bank managers to border guards, and I don’t mean speaking Russian with tourists like me they spoke it between themselves.
Although personally I don’t particularly like Yanukovich he is not the smartest politician and not strong willed enough having let victory be stolen from him in 2004 elections. Hopefully in the next elections Tigipko will have enough support to be president, seeing as he is probably the most competent of the current batch.

[Hazir]

Is it really that strange that Ukrainians speak Russian amongst themselves too? The differences are rather small IIRC and speaking Ukrainian wasn't really encouraged under the USSR.

But what's more important, what exactly are you trying to say with this post? It sounds a bit as if you think that Ukraine shouldn't be an independent country to start with?

I for one don't think that language is the strongest indicator of something like that. Half of Belgium speaks Dutch, still there is hardly anybody who thinks they should be incorporated into The Netherlands.

[Asmodian]

"Is it really that strange that Ukrainians speak Russian amongst themselves too? The differences are rather small IIRC and speaking Ukrainian wasn't really encouraged under the USSR"

Actually not true under USSR Ukranian was greatly promoted and attempts were made to teach it to people in parts of Ukraine, for example in Donetsk where I was born and my mom lived it was made obligatory in schools even thou the people there did not speak it and never historically spoke it. This was part of some weird idea by soviet leadership to present the country as even more mullty ethnic then it really was. You could say during USSR ukranian language was being forced on people on the region.

"But what's more important, what exactly are you trying to say with this post? It sounds a bit as if you think that Ukraine shouldn't be an independent country to start with?"

Well actually I thought I mentioned the point which is to say "I said it would happen" as well as a private celebration of a failure of the american foreign policy in the region.

But to answer your question historically Ukraine never existed as an independent state for any significant period of time and certainly not in the current territorial composition. The country is sharply divided east and west, which is basically original Russian territories and original Polish Territories, most of the economy being concentrated in the former. I think the best they could do for themselves is to split up according to those lines and join their respective country. But seeing as that is highly unlikely the next best thing would be to join in economic union with Russia seeing as Ukraine's economy depends almost entirely on its big neighbor, and they have to do it before Russia finishes building north and south stream pipelines in order to get a better deal.

And I agree that language doesn't mean much I just mentioned it because I was surprised at it after 5 years of active work by the government to repress the language, now it will likely be recognized as official national language along side Ukranian. Ukranians and Russians are essentially the same people, the original name for Ukrainians being Malo Russians, meaning same history, culture, etc. Kiev current capital of Ukraine, used to be the capital of ancient Russia. But I like to look at it from more cynical point of view, Ukraine produces a lot of things for which there is a market in Russia that already exists, market in EU would need to be created and significant barriers to entry would need to be overcome.

[Hazir]

So what you're talking about is ressentiments about the break away of Ukraine. I agree with you that it was a bit hard to understand how the heart-land of the original Russia would break away from Russia proper. But nevertheless, the coming about of this Ukrainian state and a separate Russia I might add, created new realities. That break up was not really part of any US policy, I dare say that it was directly against the interests of the USA that a not-too-stable Ukraine with a nucleair stockpile would come about.

[Asmodian]

Seem to be talking bout different things although I think that original break away was part of US policy aimed at weakening Russia that continues to this day, but In the original post I was talking of 2004 elections / revolution, where US sponsored government was installed that was sharply anti Russian, not the original declaration of idipendance of Ukraine.

Oh and Ukraine did not inherit any nukes, all soviet nukes were inherited by Russia, as far as I know.

[Hazir]

Seem to be talking bout different things although I think that original break away was part of US policy aimed at weakening Russia that continues to this day, but In the original post I was talking of 2004 elections / revolution, where US sponsored government was installed that was sharply anti Russian, not the original declaration of idipendance of Ukraine.

Oh and Ukraine did not inherit any nukes, all soviet nukes were inherited by Russia, as far as I know.

Yes they were inherited by Russia, but they were in Ukraine, which is another reality that needed to be dealth with.

I think your ideas about the importance of the US behind developements in Ukraine border on the paranoid. It's reminiscent of Turks always talking about non-descript powers from outside that want to dismember the country. As if anybody has a real interest in dismembering any country where that only means unrest which is never in the interest of the keepers of the status quo. Of which the US is one.

[Loki]

I like how you're simultaneously blaming America for intervening in Ukrainian affairs and calling for Ukraine to be annexed by Russia.