Would you like to abandon the Gregorian calendar for a better alternative?

[Aimless]

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...onal-calendar/



The Gregorian calendar is fraught with weirdness and annoyances. This proposed alternative may make life easier, even if it feels a little soulless

[wiggin]

I saw some stuff on this earlier. I think we should stick with the current system just because changing things on computers and bits of hardware would be incredibly expensive and time consuming.

[Being]

I saw some stuff on this earlier. I think we should stick with the current system just because changing things on computers and bits of hardware would be incredibly expensive and time consuming.

If it is in fact a superior system that makes for a better future then wouldn't you say your conservatism is misplaced? More jobs now and a better future for all.

[RandBlade]

The Gregorian calendar has its flaws but that fix doesn't remotely address them.

Changing from a 365-day to 364-day (with a week leap every so often I guess) might lead to improvements on the fact that the year would always start on a Monday, end on a Sunday etc ... but then for no reason whatsoever the biggest flaw of our calendar has been kept. Months are kept at either 30 or 31 days, so what day of the week does a month start? Who knows still! If you do an annual calendar then you've got it pegged down, but for people who use monthly accounting or monthly calendars, or weekly accounting or calendars etc - which I suspect is a heck of a lot of people, organisations and businesses, there is no improvement at all.

The real advantage to a 364 day year would come from having a whole extra month. Rather than have months of a weird amount of days that leads to fractured weeks, have 13 months each of which have 4 weeks each. If you go from a Monday-Sunday (switch to Sun-Sat or appropriate for your locale) basis for example you could then instead have every single month [all 13 of them] start on a Monday and end on a Sunday. Every month's now the same, not just a yearly but a monthly schedule would never have to change. Every month in the year is now 4 exact weeks.

Then if we're really streamlining the calendar, simply shoving aside a day and adding a week now and then is not very clever. What month does that fall under? That's not been addressed. How about instead recognising the fact that nobody does anything whatosever on Christmas Day and saying that is not a day of the week. The prior week can end, we have Christmas, then the next week starts. Now got 365 days in the year and all 364 that people actually do stuff on have a simple calendar. Once every 4 years we can have another non-day perhaps? Or forget about it then about once a century have a leap month, that would really keep things simple.

This fix is not addressing the flaws of the Gregorian calendar and is just messing around.

PS my company works on a whole-week basis for all accounts and comparisons etc and so already acts on a 364 day calendar. We've already started our accounts for 2012, because as this week includes next month (Sunday falls within January) we've already started next month. Each month ends on the final Sunday of the month on our accounts, but that makes some months 4 weeks and some 5.

[Ominous Gamer]

A better system would be nice, but we're way past the point of no return on this type of stuff. Hell, society can't even come up with new good christmas songs, much less understand a better calendar.

The Gregorian calendar has its flaws but that fix doesn't remotely address them.

Changing from a 365-day to 364-day (with a week leap every so often I guess) might lead to improvements on the fact that the year would always start on a Monday, end on a Sunday etc ... but then for no reason whatsoever the biggest flaw of our calendar has been kept. Months are kept at either 30 or 31 days, so what day of the week does a month start? Who knows still! If you do an annual calendar then you've got it pegged down, but for people who use monthly accounting or monthly calendars, or weekly accounting or calendars etc - which I suspect is a heck of a lot of people, organisations and businesses, there is no improvement at all.

If you read the article, which includes easy to understand pictures, a leap week at the end of december is included when needed.


Your other complaint makes no sense. Months would start on a Sunday, Tueday, or Thursday, and it would be the same every single time. Thats why this calendar came to creation in the first place.

[wiggin]

If it is in fact a superior system that makes for a better future then wouldn't you say your conservatism is misplaced? More jobs now and a better future for all.

*shrugs* I'm not sure that the system is so fundamentally superior. It's certainly marginally simpler, but calendars are pretty much arbitrary anyways, and the costs of changing everything aren't likely to be recouped any time soon. The calendar simply isn't something that really bothers me.

The real advantage to a 364 day year would come from having a whole extra month. Rather than have months of a weird amount of days that leads to fractured weeks, have 13 months each of which have 4 weeks each. If you go from a Monday-Sunday (switch to Sun-Sat or appropriate for your locale) basis for example you could then instead have every single month [all 13 of them] start on a Monday and end on a Sunday. Every month's now the same, not just a yearly but a monthly schedule would never have to change. Every month in the year is now 4 exact weeks.

This is a better idea. Not something that really bothers me much either, but it at least makes some more sense from a planning perspective.

Then if we're really streamlining the calendar, simply shoving aside a day and adding a week now and then is not very clever. What month does that fall under? That's not been addressed. How about instead recognising the fact that nobody does anything whatosever on Christmas Day and saying that is not a day of the week. The prior week can end, we have Christmas, then the next week starts. Now got 365 days in the year and all 364 that people actually do stuff on have a simple calendar. Once every 4 years we can have another non-day perhaps? Or forget about it then about once a century have a leap month, that would really keep things simple.

This could be a big problem for religions that have a holy day every seventh day (Sabbath, Sunday, Jummah, whatever) would eventually end up having their holy day on Tuesday or whatever, which would be a serious issue. It's also incredibly Western-centric - in much of the rest of the world, Christmas is just another day.

[earthJoker]

A seven day week is already very "Western" centric. But I agree, Christmas is a bad choice.

I don't like the idea to have leap weeks instead of leap days. The calendar year should be as close to the astronomical year as possible IMO.

[Wraith]

I've thought about this in the past. I agree with Rand here. If we're going to change the calendar, we need to go all the way and make it 13 months each with 28 days. We can keep the leap week thing so that every five years or so thirteenuary has a fifth week.

I also think we should just switch everyone to GMT. With so much international buisness being conducted these days, and increasing globalization, it's silly that we're making it more difficult to coordinate by having a bunch of different time zones, and then further complicating it with things like daylight savings time.

[Ziggy Stardust]

All off you take two steps away from the calendar. Leave it you barbarians. Oh noes, this calendar is inconveniencing me in the slightest of manners, it needs to be changed!

A leap week every 5 or 6 years? Please.

[RandBlade]

The Christmas idea was relatively flippant and seasonal. Can see why that would screw with other things like the Sabbath.

The serious point though was if we were to mess around the the thirteenth month ought to be added.

I do think though that the hassle of reprogramming it does mean it won't happen.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Only if the 13th month gets a catchy name.

"Tredecember" just doesn't sound right. Neither does "Undecember"

[Aimless]

Alternative calendar for the business world?

[earthJoker]

Alternative calendar for the business world?

We already have that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_week_date, it is quite common in business plans over here.

[Hazir]

We already have that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_week_date, it is quite common in business plans over here.

But that's what Rand described. Actually I would like a 13 month year; it would make it easier to plot my schedule for the year because that is already on a 4 week cycle. Now I need a calender to make sure I make reservations on the right day.

[earthJoker]

I think Rand's proposal still have months. The week date doesn't have months, you just count through up to 52/53.

[wiggin]

A seven day week is already very "Western" centric. But I agree, Christmas is a bad choice.

Actually, the first seven day weeks we know of were in Babylonia, and while they became standard across much of the Western world in the 2nd century and on because the Roman empire adopted it, they have very long traditions of use in China, India, and across the Middle East. So, no.

I don't like the idea to have leap weeks instead of leap days. The calendar year should be as close to the astronomical year as possible IMO.

I'm afraid I never really understood this logic. What's the actual benefit associated with having a calendar that is close (to within, say, 6 hours or so) to an actual revolution around the sun? I get the advantage of keeping it from drifting too far with leap weeks/months - otherwise seasonal events can get really screwed up, and the calendar becomes largely useless. But I don't really understand why each year must be so close. What does it matter if it's off a few days?

I've used two calendars in parallel at times, and one of them has an 11-day offset from the other every year, made up with a leap month roughly every 3 years. It's not functionally superior or inferior to the Gregorian calendar as far as I can tell.

[Ominous Gamer]

Wouldn't that screw up growing seasons? People are pretty much set in their ways knowing when its time to be picking up their favorite fresh foods, or planting them for that matter. Having a calendar that constantly shoved around those dates doesn't seem very helpful.

Not a big hassle with a leap day, or even week, but a leap month is madness.

[wiggin]

That would be true if there weren't a correction every now and then. But for most people outside of agriculture, they just know roughly the month when X is available in stores, and that hardly requires the precision of within a single day - a week or two is fine. For agriculture, it's a bit more sophisticated nowadays then just 'plant seeds on X date'. They take into account climate conditions, which vary from year to year anyways.

[Khendraja'aro]

I've thought about this in the past. I agree with Rand here. If we're going to change the calendar, we need to go all the way and make it 13 months each with 28 days. We can keep the leap week thing so that every five years or so thirteenuary has a fifth week.

I also think we should just switch everyone to GMT. With so much international buisness being conducted these days, and increasing globalization, it's silly that we're making it more difficult to coordinate by having a bunch of different time zones, and then further complicating it with things like daylight savings time.

Why not do away with weeks and months altogether?

[earthJoker]

Actually, the first seven day weeks we know of were in Babylonia, and while they became standard across much of the Western world in the 2nd century and on because the Roman empire adopted it, they have very long traditions of use in China, India, and across the Middle East. So, no.

So it is as "western" as Christianity, thank you for proving my point.

I'm afraid I never really understood this logic.

It is not a logic, I just prefer units that can be derived from nature over those that aren't.

I also think that a leap week (~2%) would have a too big impact on annual statistics (GDP ect.) compared to a leap day (~0.3%), that would make things unnecessary complicated.

[ImAnOgre]

Alternative calendar for the business world?

Business's don't really use a normal Calendar already, we do things yearly, hence the fiscal year. Everything else is just filler.

My question is, the current system works, correct? Everything has it's flaws, but in order to change the calendar would require SERIOUS capital. What would be the ROI? I can't see for the life of me how simplifying the calendar would benefit anyone financially. So, who would pay for the cost? Is said money then lost? (because how in the world would they recoup their losses?).

There's an old saying ... if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think it applies here.

[wiggin]

So it is as "western" as Christianity, thank you for proving my point.

Er...? The bablyonian week was half a millenium before Christianity, and was only concurrent (not derived from) Judaism - might be Zoroastrian in origin. Both of these probably developed from the lunar cycle - a week is roughly a quarter of a lunar cycle (~29.5 days), which is a useful division. I doubt the Chinese adopted it because of Christianity or the Roman Empire either; they did it too early for that to be likely. For that matter, the Romans didn't take to if because of Christianity - it was largely already the dominant form of week long before Constantine.

The point is that (a) the week is not a construct of Western society, (b) it was not adopted by much of the world as a result of Christianity or Western society, (c) it has been a part of much of the world's keeping of time for at least a millennium. I don't think it's some form of cultural imperialism to assume that the seven-day week will be the basis of any future calendar. Making Christmas a day off the calendar, on the other hand, would be.

It is not a logic, I just prefer units that can be derived from nature over those that aren't.

I also think that a leap week (~2%) would have a too big impact on annual statistics (GDP ect.) compared to a leap day (~0.3%), that would make things unnecessary complicated.

We already make adjustments to quarterly statistics for seasonal factors, etc. and the error in those statistics is far larger than the leap week shift anyways. I'm not concerned about this.

Oh, I agree we shouldn't change things, but not because of your reasoning or preferences.

[LittleFuzzy]

www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/12/rational-calendar/



The Gregorian calendar is fraught with weirdness and annoyances. This proposed alternative may make life easier, even if it feels a little soulless

As is pointed out, the Gregorian calendar would remain in use by and for agriculture. Which is why all the rest of us use it in the first place. And nothing is fundamentally changed *all months being equal, weeks evenly going into months, no leap periods, etc* Which means it's just another attempt by an anal-retentive person to try and force the rest of the world to match HIS personal aesthetic. Which kinda pisses me off. Oh and by the way, it's just more Western cultural imperialism.

[Wraith]

Why not do away with weeks and months altogether?

We'll never get away from weeks now, and months are still useful for organization, IMO.

[Aimless]

Anal retentive or not, any of these alternatives would make scheduling a great deal easier and less likely to be fucked up by eg. overworked doctor/lecturers and their secretaries. And because you could minimise the number of regular days squeezed in between holidays you may be able to get more work-days out of the drones, I dunno

[Loki]

No, any of these alternatives could possibly improve some tasks by a marginal amount while requiring a massive up front cost that's unlikely to ever be redeemed.

[earthJoker]

Er...? The bablyonian week was half a millenium before Christianity, and was only concurrent (not derived from) (..,) Making Christmas a day off the calendar, on the other hand, would be.

And the middle east became "western" in that millennium? They are both not western, that's my point! Even though you can argue that Christmas is actually originated in the European celebration of winter solstice.

Oh, I agree we shouldn't change things, but not because of your reasoning or preferences.

No problem, it's not going to change because of my opinion anyway.

[wiggin]

Er... Christmas as a national holiday very much is a Western invention. Even the holiday itself is of Western origin: it technically started sometime in Europe in the 4th century, not in the Middle East. Furthermore, even if you were to be pedantic and argue that Christianity is not technically a Western religion, having been founded in (barely) the Middle East, it certainly came to prominence and power in the West in the last 1500 years. To argue anything else is absurd.

[Wraith]

No, any of these alternatives could possibly improve some tasks by a marginal amount while requiring a massive up front cost that's unlikely to ever be redeemed.

I'm not sure about that. Maybe the switching cost is too high to be redeemed in a reasonable time frame, but I have my doubts. Aside from improving human-to-human scenarios, speeding things up when a calendar would otherwise need to be consulted and reducing errors, I was also thinking about the computational scenarios. Processing a simplified calendar would be easier and faster, which would give a tiny savings there. Programming calendars in the first place would also be simplified and less error prone. The benefits in this area would be absolutely miniscule, but these things happen so often that I wouldn't be surprised if it added up to significant amounts in a reasonable time frame.

It should probably be noted that my definition of a reasonable time frame is probably a lot longer than most peoples.

We'd also need to get the bonus week's worked out so that it's easy to figure out when they occur. Computational ease should take precedence over avoiding slight accumulated errors. Looking at the OP's article, it looks like we can say the bonus week should occur every year evenly divisible by 5, unless also evenly divisible by 50, and that'd get things about right. Further adjustment on a larger timescale might also be needed.

[Lebanese Dragon]

I like the idea of months and weeks and days. I think those are all very useful units of time. I wouldn't be opposed to one year just starting with 364-day years, broken up into 13 equal months.