Spanish socialists get $500 million cash infusion from American capitalist system.

[Hazir]

So they don't give a damn about this ship (and quite likely didn't know it existed), but suddenly care when someone else does the work for them?

Hey, we live in a world where finding hardly ever results in transfer of ownership, it should surprise nobody that if the stakes are this high memories of times long gone become very accute. It's not like we don't have lawsuits going on as we speak about people who are trying to reclaim the property of family members that perished in the nazi death camps. And that is also 67 years ago with the claimants having done very little else besides establishing that something belonged to their great-uncle at some time.

[RandBlade]

Are we going to go into the fallacy that anything that is legal is morally correct? And it has already been pointed out that the search team had no reason to think the ship in question was a Spanish "warship" until after the fact.

No I'm going for the "fallacy" than anything legal is legal.

On the ethical issue I said "it sucks and the Spanish are being dicks" but the thing is that right or wrong the Spanish had the law on their side and Odyssey did not. Odyssey lifting that treasure without consent was illegal, pure and simple. Maybe it shouldn't be illegal, but it was and they should have known about it in advance of their actions. I don't necessarily agree with the law (but I do understand why it is the law) but the courts were right.

[Loki]

And next time, the ship stays under water, the "national treasure" stays in the ship, and no one benefits. But at least an archaic piece of customary law will be well-applied!

[RandBlade]

And next time, the ship stays under water, the "national treasure" stays in the ship, and no one benefits. But at least an archaic piece of customary law will be well-applied!

Leave that for next time, by next time there'll be another government in power and these politicians will be retired. If politicians were a fraction as reasonable as you seem to be expecting then why would we be collectively many trillions in debt with interest payments exceeding military or education expenditure?

Besides, next time the treasure seekers will simply arrange an agreement beforehand. As they did with the UK and the Merchant Royal - its not like they didn't know that's what they were supposed to do.

[Loki]

Because politicians need to get elected now and their legacy is determined by what happens during their rule. Meanwhile, the benefits of debt are immediate, while the costs are long-term. Given those incentives, there's nothing irrational about running up the debt.

This decision benefits no one. At the very least, Spain should have paid cost + 10-20% to the people who found the ship.

[RandBlade]

Because politicians need to get elected now and their legacy is determined by what happens during their rule. Meanwhile, the benefits of debt are immediate, while the costs are long-term. Given those incentives, there's nothing irrational about running up the debt.

This decision benefits no one. At the very least, Spain should have paid cost + 10-20% to the people who found the ship.

This decision benefits Spain now. They have the entire haul.

Furthermore it sets the precedent that next time people will have to negotiate with them before hands rather than just try and take it.

What have they lost out on now?

[agamemnus]

This decision benefits Spain now. They have the entire haul.

Furthermore it sets the precedent that next time people will have to negotiate with them before hands rather than just try and take it.

What have they lost out on now?

I think the next time, if it is the same company, they will purposely melt down the gold, destroy all the evidence, and just say it was a random unidentifiable shipwreck! Well, it could happen, right?

[Veldan Rath]

Doesn't need to be the same company, but now every treasure hunter ship will now include a smelter as standard equipment.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

umm, Oddysey did the same, if not better job, of retrieving and preserving the gold than any archaeological group would have

Irrelevant unless Oddeysey is hired in an archaeological context to do archaeological work. Otherwise it is treasurehunting a.k.a plundering.
And plundering is generally considered a crime, part of the illegal international trade in artefacts.
wether or not the wreck was identifyable or not doesn't matter for the actions to be plundering (@agamemnus)

[Flixy]

Loki, I must say I am rather surprised by you. You want governments, especially Spain, to put in austerity measures, but at the same time want them to pay millions and millions for someone bringing up their property without them asking for it in the first place. And if they won't pay, you want them to just give it up. And I also thought you liked property rights, e.g. that you can do with your property as you please, including ignoring it if you want. Or does that only apply when it's in American companies' favour?

[Wraith]

Loki, I must say I am rather surprised by you. You want governments, especially Spain, to put in austerity measures, but at the same time want them to pay millions and millions for someone bringing up their property without them asking for it in the first place. And if they won't pay, you want them to just give it up. And I also thought you liked property rights, e.g. that you can do with your property as you please, including ignoring it if you want. Or does that only apply when it's in American companies' favour?

I know you think you have a strong argument here, but you really don't. They weren't looking for it, and they didn't know where it was until Odyssey found it. Odyssey didn't know what they found until they brought up the artifacts and had them examined by experts. I also haven't heard Spain moving to drop it all back in the ocean, so they clearly didn't actually want it where it was. Further, it is only by legal technicality that it isn't undisputably Odyssey's. Every place has laws and rules about abandoned property, and this was certainly abandoned. It wasn't in an area of Spain's control, it was in an unknown location, and Spain had made no effort to retrieve it, and I think 200 years is well past what one would consider a reasonable time period for action on their part.

I don't actually begrudge Spain laying claim on the thing, they have the right due to the specifics of the find, but they really didn't need to be such dicks about it. And after such a windfall, they can afford to kick back 10% to the people who got them the windfall, and while not the haul they were expecting, it would have been more than fair compensation for their troubles.

Please don't try to frame this thing as a battle against the evil corporate oppressors. It's beneath you.

[Hazir]

And next time, the ship stays under water, the "national treasure" stays in the ship, and no one benefits. But at least an archaic piece of customary law will be well-applied!

How relevant are things that don't happen?

[Flixy]

I know you think you have a strong argument here, but you really don't. They weren't looking for it, and they didn't know where it was until Odyssey found it. Odyssey didn't know what they found until they brought up the artifacts and had them examined by experts. I also haven't heard Spain moving to drop it all back in the ocean, so they clearly didn't actually want it where it was. Further, it is only by legal technicality that it isn't undisputably Odyssey's. Every place has laws and rules about abandoned property, and this was certainly abandoned. It wasn't in an area of Spain's control, it was in an unknown location, and Spain had made no effort to retrieve it, and I think 200 years is well past what one would consider a reasonable time period for action on their part.

I don't actually begrudge Spain laying claim on the thing, they have the right due to the specifics of the find, but they really didn't need to be such dicks about it. And after such a windfall, they can afford to kick back 10% to the people who got them the windfall, and while not the haul they were expecting, it would have been more than fair compensation for their troubles.

Please don't try to frame this thing as a battle against the evil corporate oppressors. It's beneath you.

As I have posted before, it would be nice if they covered the expenses or pay a finder's fee, or whatever. I'm just surprised by Loki here. IIRC he is also quite strongly against squatting, which is basically making use of housing that is not used, nor has plans to be used (in the Dutch case, anyway). IIRC he said that even if it wasn't used, or planned to be used, you were not allowed to use it yourself because it's someone else's property and it's theirs to neglect it, if they want. And also he is suddenly complaining about morality of using laws to get what you want as cheaply as possible (or free, in this case), while I don't exactly recall him complaining about banks/corporations/whatever using legal loopholes to make money from other people.

Furthermore, everybody claims that Odyssey did not know what they were bringing up, but as I've said before you've only got their word for that (and they sure as hell have an interest there), and were not diving where they said they were diving before, and tried obscuring it, so they are not exactly saints either (nor should you expect them to, they're not working for the public interest but for their own profit, which is their right). So as I've posted before here, I do think Spain is acting like a dick, but they both are. Oh, and the dumping back is a stupid argument too, obviously they are happy it's out of the ocean even if they did not make plans to get it out before. They might have done it themselves in a few years, who knows? I mean, they probably would not have, but to expect them to throw it back is silly at best.

[Hazir]

Leaving your silver hoard far under the sea is a seriously cheap way of keeping it. A lot more cost effective than having to store it in a secured facility on land.

[Wraith]

As I have posted before, it would be nice if they covered the expenses or pay a finder's fee, or whatever. I'm just surprised by Loki here. IIRC he is also quite strongly against squatting, which is basically making use of housing that is not used, nor has plans to be used (in the Dutch case, anyway). IIRC he said that even if it wasn't used, or planned to be used, you were not allowed to use it yourself because it's someone else's property and it's theirs to neglect it, if they want. And also he is suddenly complaining about morality of using laws to get what you want as cheaply as possible (or free, in this case), while I don't exactly recall him complaining about banks/corporations/whatever using legal loopholes to make money from other people.

I'll let Loki do the heavy lifting of defending himself, but the parallels with squatting aren't very strong.

Furthermore, everybody claims that Odyssey did not know what they were bringing up, but as I've said before you've only got their word for that (and they sure as hell have an interest there),

Yes, but I have no evidence supporting calling them liars, don't think it's fair to assume off the bat any wrongdoing, and it's not as if they would have been able to hide it for long. It also makes sense that it'd be an unidentifiable wreck - 200 years on the ocean floor can't be kind to a wooden ship, and it makes sense that it'd only be identifiable by the more durable artifacts onboard.

and tried obscuring it,

The security reasons for this are obvious, so it's a rational measure to take. There were also supposed to be legal reasons which I don't really get, but from my experience with lawyers I've come to accept that their art is akin to mysticism, and it's better to just follow along with whatever they ask you to do in service to their arcane rituals.

Oh, and the dumping back is a stupid argument too, obviously they are happy it's out of the ocean even if they did not make plans to get it out before. They might have done it themselves in a few years, who knows? I mean, they probably would not have, but to expect them to throw it back is silly at best.

Which was my point. They clearly didn't want it left where it was. This has no bearing on the case itself, I just wanted to put to rest the idea that they wanted it where it was.

Not in response to anything in your post really: this case as executed isn't really about property rights at all - if it were only about that, Odyssey would have won it - it's about sovereignty rights. Which is how Spain got the win.

[Hazir]

Sovereignty = is ownership.

[Wraith]

The US government claims sovereignty over the land on which I live. I am the owner of that land, not the US government.

While sovereignty can equal ownership in practical effect, such as this Odyssey case, they are not the same thing. Here, Spain leveraged their sovereignty to get ownership.

[Asmodian]

Honestly arguments like they did not care about it for years are worthless, so what its theirs. The right thing to do would have been to contact the Spanish government and obtain a contract that would compensate them for the retrieval as was mentioned several times. I do not see how Spanish government is under any moral obligation to compensate them the costs now after having had to fight a legal battle to reclaim what turned out to be theirs by law.

Which was my point. They clearly didn't want it left where it was. This has no bearing on the case itself, I just wanted to put to rest the idea that they wanted it where it was

Wanting it to be at the bottom of the ocean and being content to leave it their are different things. They were content to leave it at the bottom of the ocean perhaps eventually paying a Spanish company to bring it up. But once someone took the initiative to bring it up the were also content to keep it, although they probably were not too happy at having to fight a court battle to recover the treasure.

[CitizenCain]

And next time, the ship stays under water, the "national treasure" stays in the ship, and no one benefits. But at least an archaic piece of customary law will be well-applied!

No, the next time someone comes across a Spanish wreck, or maybe even any wreck that could be Spanish, they plunder it in secret and that's that. 17 tons of gold and silver isn't going to just stay on the ocean floor on account of this decision, it just won't be reported either, and any historical or archeological value is going be destroyed in the effort to keep the haul that's been found.

Go government!

And I also thought you liked property rights, e.g. that you can do with your property as you please, including ignoring it if you want. Or does that only apply when it's in American companies' favour?

So, I can choose to drop my property, like a crate containing a bunch of gold bars, in the middle of a "public" area, and expect to be able to reclaim it 200 years later? Please. Pretty sure I dropped a few bucks in coins on the sidewalk the other day too... clearly I should go to the police/courts and try to sue whoever picked them up to get "my property" back?

I'm honestly having a lot of trouble trying to figure out why you think these statements you're making are at all analogous or contain anything resembling a worthwhile argument.

The right thing to do would have been to contact the Spanish government and obtain a contract that would compensate them for the retrieval as was mentioned several times.

And you can say it several more times if you'd like, but it still won't change anything or make anyone forget that you're ignoring the relevant issues at bar and essentially demanding clairvoyance from others.

[RandBlade]

No, the next time someone comes across a Spanish wreck, or maybe even any wreck that could be Spanish, they plunder it in secret and that's that. 17 tons of gold and silver isn't going to just stay on the ocean floor on account of this decision, it just won't be reported either, and any historical or archeological value is going be destroyed in the effort to keep the haul that's been found.

Go government!

You could already argue that's the existing situation. Given that already if they find something at the bottom of the sea-floor and already have to give a large portion (often a majority) to the government it legally belongs to, why don't they already not report it and just steal it?

[Ominous Gamer]

You could already argue that's the existing situation. Given that already if they find something at the bottom of the sea-floor and already have to give a large portion (often a majority) to the government it legally belongs to, why don't they already not report it and just steal it?

There is a good bit of long term profit in traveling exhibits. Odyssey already does this.

[Asmodian]

No, the next time someone comes across a Spanish wreck, or maybe even any wreck that could be Spanish, they plunder it in secret and that's that. 17 tons of gold and silver isn't going to just stay on the ocean floor on account of this decision, it just won't be reported either, and any historical or archeological value is going be destroyed in the effort to keep the haul that's been found.

Someone obviously has no clue as to difficult it would be to then get it in to the banking system as well as the fact you essential become a criminal with a jail sentence hanging over you if caught likelihood of which is high.

[Hazir]

The US government claims sovereignty over the land on which I live. I am the owner of that land, not the US government.

While sovereignty can equal ownership in practical effect, such as this Odyssey case, they are not the same thing. Here, Spain leveraged their sovereignty to get ownership.

Sorry, but the sovereign is not the government. The sovereign is the nation. On that level your ownership means nothing; your ownership starts on the lower level where the law works. The level where 'we the people' say : these are the rights of each citizen. At least, that is the way it works in a country based on democratic principles.

The difference is that the state has to respect your rights as an owner. The nation can say on a whim 'you are not the owner and as a matter of fact you were never the owner and don't think you can turn to the courts because there are no courts I recognize'. Most nations choose a more organised approach to things, but that's because they choose the organised way, not because they have to.

[RandBlade]

That is completely backwards and wrong.

[CitizenCain]

You could already argue that's the existing situation. Given that already if they find something at the bottom of the sea-floor and already have to give a large portion (often a majority) to the government it legally belongs to, why don't they already not report it and just steal it?

Well you're wrong. It generally makes more sense to take the guaranteed 40-80% of the haul you can negotiate with the government than take it all and have the possibility of it all being taken away from you at some point and being sent to jail for just grabbing it.

Personally, I'd just grab it and run either way, but I'm not a corporation, and am also unusual in that I don't give a fuck if I die in a firefight with the authorities. Most people have this fear of death/incarceration thing that informs their decision-making processes. And that in mind, the rational decision is usually to compromise a little and still walk away millions of dollars richer, instead of risking your life to walk away with 2 or 3 times more. And I know you're not the type who'd risk losing everything and going to jail when you can do it above board and take home 12 million instead of sneaking off with 20, so that's kind of an ill-thought out or disingenuous argument you got there.

Someone obviously has no clue as to difficult it would be to then get it in to the banking system as well as the fact you essential become a criminal with a jail sentence hanging over you if caught likelihood of which is high.

Actually, shows what the hell you know given the status of antiquities as a a staple of the money-laundering trade, and the virtual impossibility of sourcing and tracking fungible commodities. 17 tons of newly smelted gold and silver is still worth a fortune, and good luck proving it came from a shipwreck I plundered. And that's actually the way it's done when people "illegally" plunder treasure ships. They melt [the vast majority] of the coins into bullion and laugh all the way to the bank or the floor safe or vault.

[RandBlade]

Well you're wrong. It generally makes more sense to take the guaranteed 40-80% of the haul you can negotiate with the government than take it all and have the possibility of it all being taken away from you at some point and being sent to jail for just grabbing it.

Personally, I'd just grab it and run either way, but I'm not a corporation, and am also unusual in that I don't give a fuck if I die in a firefight with the authorities. Most people have this fear of death/incarceration thing that informs their decision-making processes. And that in mind, the rational decision is usually to compromise a little and still walk away millions of dollars richer, instead of risking your life to walk away with 2 or 3 times more. And I know you're not the type who'd risk losing everything and going to jail when you can do it above board and take home 12 million instead of sneaking off with 20, so that's kind of an ill-thought out or disingenuous argument you got there.

Having conceded the fact that there is an incentive to act legally for them, if not brave and macho you, what is that incentive worth?

Make a deal: Get upto 80% of the value of the haul, all done legally, free publicity from the news (always puff pieces about these finds, good news stories), can further cash in by selling your story, providing exhibitions etc
Just steal it: Get 100% of the haul however: risk of incarceration or being viewed as pirates etc, no dealing with criminal gangs, risk of getting caught, costs of smelting etc, devalued via having to deal with the black market, news stories would not be positive etc, etc

[Asmodian]

Actually, shows what the hell you know given the status of antiquities as a a staple of the money-laundering trade, and the virtual impossibility of sourcing and tracking fungible commodities. 17 tons of newly smelted gold and silver is still worth a fortune, and good luck proving it came from a shipwreck I plundered. And that's actually the way it's done when people "illegally" plunder treasure ships. They melt [the vast majority] of the coins into bullion and laugh all the way to the bank or the floor safe or vault.

Well since I actually work in anti money laundering division of bank I actually have to know about it rather then just make idiotic statements that completely miss the point. Yes the 17 tons of gold are worth a fortune however how would you sell it, institutions that would buy such quantities of gold would have to do due diligence meaning the burden of proof would actually be on you to explain and, when we are dealing with amounts of 500 billion, prove how you came by that gold and where the eventual money you used to purchase it came from. You can possibly do all that and certain banks will even assist you it will cost you thou something like 20%. Also you smelted ancient coinage, that probably had value reduction in your find. Finally I am betting that an operation like this involves quite a few people not all of whom walk away with a % of the find, so you would be involving large number of people in a criminal activity anyone of whom can denounce you so you have to pay them more or I guess eliminate them? If you pay them there is a risk that they will raise suspicion when depositing funds and some bank will report them which will start the chain of investigation. So in the end you will end up paying at least 40% of the find just to legalize to an extent and in the process become a career criminal, its not impossible and may be even worth it but I don't think its such a hot alternative when you could essentially do the same thing legally.

[Asmodian]

double post

[CitizenCain]

Well since I actually work in anti money laundering division of bank

Which bank? I may be interested in opening up an account or 17.

[Hazir]

That is completely backwards and wrong.

I take that as a compliment, coming from you.