Shooting of Trayvon Martin

[Loki]

Because in a snap judgement, flight or fight scenario, a "thorough careful investigation and a detailed account of the event" is what happens before deciding.

You're assuming juries hold such people to a higher standard.

[RandBlade]

You're assuming juries hold such people to a higher standard.

You're right, juries don't spend months sitting in a trial and days deliberating it. They make a snap judgement too.

[CitizenCain]

Also, I'm still not fully convinced that the law is really to blame here. I know that's the popular scapegoat on the internet, but with all the allegations that the police department are suppressing evidence, with the department claiming there were no witnesses when there are recorded 9/11 calls of witnesses being close enough to the scene that you can hear what's happening in the background while they're giving a play-by-play, this looks more like a problem with the police department than anything else.

Especially when said police department is caught mouthing "self defense" at the scene, and making statements that there's no case to media. Straight up, a bunch of Southern cops came across a dead nigglet who'd been killed by a white man, and that was all they needed to make up their minds about what happened.

Now that they've been caught in the public embarrassment this is, they'll blame SYG and the victim and anyone else they can to deflect attention away from the fact that they're racist shits who are too lazy and bigoted to actually do their fucking jobs. I dare say that if this has been the other way around, and a black teen had shot a white homeowner in Florida, the suspect would be on death row before anyone could even say "stand your ground law."

You think it's a coincidence that the number of killings that don't lead to charges tripled since the law was passed?

And, of course, it's not like police departments have any discretion in bringing charges or anything...

I'll be giving Florida a wide berth should I visit the US. Don't want to get shot on a whim.

You're white, so you probably won't have to worry about it. Minxy, on the other hand, might wanna stay away from Florida, yeah.

I'm not quite sure why you even need a SYG law in the first place. The "normal" self-defense laws pretty much cover all the reasonable bases.

And if you think that those self-defense laws require you to go through a "check list" then I'm not quite sure if you're thinking straight there, Wraith.

Except he's right. Current self defense laws in a lot of the US put an onus on the victim to ensure there's no option to flee, only retaliate with "proportionate" force, and basically exhaust every other option available before resorting to actually defending yourself, and then if you defend yourself too effectively, you can be prosecuted.

SYG laws are the public backlash against that kind of bullshit, and in general, cops and prosecutors, being the vermin they are, respond to these laws by deliberately fucking things up, so they can blame the law they don't like for why justice wasn't done and they didn't even fucking try to do their fucking jobs.

Or has the US sunk that far into anarchy and barbarism already that you cannot enforce the law through the usual means anymore? In that case, there's far more things wrong with your country than this SYG law - that's just a symptom.

Exactly. It's just a symptom of the schizophrenic and draconian nature of the American legal system.

[Enoch the Red]

I'm not quite sure why you even need a SYG law in the first place. The "normal" self-defense laws pretty much cover all the reasonable bases.

And if you think that those self-defense laws require you to go through a "check list" then I'm not quite sure if you're thinking straight there, Wraith.

I think you are speaking out of a great deal of ignorance here. Each state has their own definition of what constitutes self defense, and when it is applicable. There isn't a single overarching definition of what is - or is not - self-defense in the United States. There are commonly accepted standards for statutes and understood metrics that guide what is and isn't considered self-defense, (the reasonable man criteria) but standards can vary from state to state, and county to county. For instance, I could be charged with a crime for defending my home with a pistol in the suburbs of Chicago or New York, because of the laws regarding firearms ownership there.

There have been questions about whether or not people have been prosecuted for genuine cases of self-defense, so I thought I'd give a few examples of why many existing self defense laws aren't adequate to cover common situations that many individuals might find themselves in.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...29/detail.html
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/...me-with-ak-47/
http://www.workers.org/2007/us/nj4-0628/
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/art...py-to-be-free-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ns-charge.html
http://www.koco.com/video/19584268/detail.html

This last one probably will be controversial, but I still believe it qualifies as self-defense. A wounded attacker can still pose a threat, and most defensive instructors will teach you to keep firing until the attacker has stopped moving. Had he been concealing a weapon, or the bullet had only grazed him, or he was faking an injury, he could have easily continued the attack.

[CitizenCain]

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/art...py-to-be-free-

Great example of the US legal system right there.

Guy defends himself against a violent felon, legal system makes sure he loses his job, home and all his possessions, while charging him the privilege of being unjustly tried. Go America.

[Loki]

And, of course, it's not like police departments have any discretion in bringing charges or anything...

DAs don't like bringing cases to trial that they're unlikely to win; it makes them look bad if they end up losing.

[Loki]

Great example of the US legal system right there.

Guy defends himself against a violent felon, legal system makes sure he loses his job, home and all his possessions, while charging him the privilege of being unjustly tried. Go America.

The guy is more than twice above the legal alcohol limit, is driving a car, and has a lengthy record for theft. Not exactly unreasonable to set a high bail.

[CitizenCain]

The guy is more than twice above the legal alcohol limit, is driving a car, and has a lengthy record for theft. Not exactly unreasonable to set a high bail.

Yeah, you might wanna give that another read. That was the attacker, not the victim. The only thing the victim did wrong was not aiming for the head.

[Enoch the Red]

The guy is more than twice above the legal alcohol limit, is driving a car, and has a lengthy record for theft. Not exactly unreasonable to set a high bail.

That would be the attacker, not the guy who defended himself.

[CitizenCain]

DAs don't like bringing cases to trial that they're unlikely to win; it makes them look bad if they end up losing.

So explain the case you just misread. (Or for that matter, any of the others GE linked.)

Prosecutors in this country have no problem filing bullshit charges against people who LEGITIMATELY defend themselves against attackers, so I don't think they get to hide behind the "we're unlikely to win" excuse on cases that actually deserve to see the inside of a courtroom. You call the cops and fire a warning round into the ground when there's a gang bullying you, you get charged with a felony. You stalk some poor nigglet and murder him, and all of a sudden, they're concerned about the strength of the case. BULLFUCKINGSHIT!

(Supports my attitude of shooting them all in the head, instead of bothering with "warning shots," but makes your assertion rather indefensible.)

[Loki]

Yeah, you might wanna give that another read. That was the attacker, not the victim. The only thing the victim did wrong was not aiming for the head.

[CitizenCain]

Oh, and more fun news about this execution....

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/n...,4163905.story

Trayvon Martin case: No-confidence vote for Sanford police chief

Reporting from Sanford, Fla.— In a tense meeting Wednesday that highlighted growing tensions over the shooting death of an unarmed black teenager, local officials in Sanford, Fla., passed a vote of no confidence in the police chief as protests spread north to New York City, where the slain youth’s parents joined a Manhattan march demanding the killer’s arrest.

The no-confidence measure passed 3 to 2 after more than an hour of debate, and though it was not binding, the outcome and the public groans and applause that punctuated the debate underscored the anger pulsing through the Orlando suburb nearly a month after 17-year-old Trayvon Martin’s death on Feb. 26. Most of that anger is focused on the fact that the confessed shooter, 28-year-old George Zimmerman, who has been described as both Latino and white, has not been arrested.

Dozens of Sanford residents gathered in the Sanford City Hall, where City Commissioner Mark McCarty set the tone for the meeting by noting that he had called for Police Chief Bill Lee’s ouster 10 days earlier in a meeting with the city manager, Norton N. Bonaparte Jr.

“I take no pleasure in publicly flogging our police chief. He’s a good man,” McCarty said.

But McCarty said questions surrounding the case, and the negative publicity cast upon the city since the killing, were largely the result of mishandling of the investigation. The questions, he said, include whether police were too quick to accept Zimmerman’s claim that he fired in self-defense, despite the fact that Martin was unarmed and that witnesses described hearing someone wailing for help before a gunshot rang out.

A lawyer representing Martin's family, Benjamin Crump, has said that the teenager was on a cellphone with his girlfriend and expressed concern that he was being followed by a strange man in the seconds before he was shot. And two women who live near the shooting scene have said that Martin was lying face-down, with Zimmerman looming over him, after he was shot.

“If it was self-defense, why was he [Zimmerman] on Trayvon’s back?” one of the witnesses, Mary Cutcher, told CNN in an interview.

City Commissioners Patty Mahany and Randy Jones argued against the no-confidence vote, saying the city needed to wait for the outcomes of a grand jury inquiry scheduled for April 10 and a Department of Justice investigation. “A rush to judgment in any situation is wrong,” said Mahany, calling the no-confidence motion a “knee-jerk reaction.”

Only the city manager, Bonaparte, can fire Lee or ask for his resignation, and he gave no indication he planned to do so. But as speaker after speaker, black and white, took to the microphone to question why Zimmerman had not been arrested, it was clear that Bonaparte faced pressure that showed no sign of diminishing.

The Rev. Al Sharpton was due to lead a rally in Sanford on Thursday, and the city was planning for hundreds and possibly thousands of people at a special meeting Monday night to focus on the case.

In Manhattan’s Union Square, hundreds of people marched in memory of the slain teenager in a so-called Million Hoodie March on Wednesday, including Martin’s parents. Martin was wearing a hooded sweatshirt when he was killed while walking back from a store where he had purchased some candy and a drink.

"We're not going to stop until we get justice," said the teenager's father, Tracy Martin, after thanking the crowd in New York, which chanted, "We want arrests," according to the Associated Press.

"My son did not deserve to die," the teen's mother, Sybrina Fulton, told the crowd, AP reported. "My heart is in pain, but to see the support of all of you really makes a difference."

More than a dozen speakers spoke at the Sanford meeting, the overwhelming majority of them black Sanford residents complaining that the Police Department was quick to arrest blacks while letting whites accused of similar offenses to go free. Several of them described arbitrary arrests and harassment by police. “I was born and raised in Sanford, and I’ve had this problem plenty of times,” said Robin Riggins, a black woman.

One resident, however, spoke in favor of Lee, arguing that the case should be allowed to “run its course.”

“There's two sides to every story,” said the resident, a white man who said he had lived in Sanford for decades. “We can’t rush to judgment and have Chief Lee be responsible for everything that occurs if we find out in an investigation he did his job.”

He noted that Lee had only been on the job 10 months.

Lee took over after the previous chief was forced out following an outcry over the beating of a black man in downtown Sanford by a white man who is a police officer’s son. The police did not arrest the man, even though the beating was captured on video.

...and last chief forced out after a white cop's kid wasn't even arrested after being caught on video beating a black man. But yeah, it's probably all the fault of that SYG legislation.

[Khendraja'aro]

I think you are speaking out of a great deal of ignorance here. Each state has their own definition of what constitutes self defense, and when it is applicable.

So, let me get this straight: You have a perceived problem of stuff not being judged as self-defense in the eye of the law when it actually is self-defense...

... and thus you promptly go whole-hog the other way and make stuff into self-defense in the eye of the law when it actually isn't?

Does your country possess the ability act in moderation at all? Does it always have to be this binary choice?

[Loki]

49 states seem to manage it.

[CitizenCain]

Does your country possess the ability act in moderation at all? Does it always have to be this binary choice?

Coming from the guy who supports his country's war technology, because it records identifiable characteristics of someone who's out in public.

Stay classy, Mr. pot.

[RandBlade]

49 states seem to manage it.

So all those problems listed before were just from one state?

[Loki]

You expect a country with 300 million people to function flawlessly? At least we don't regularly let serial felons out on the street after a month.

[CitizenCain]

...or throw down 6 month prison sentences for stealing a bottle of water, for that matter.

Well, maybe I'm not being totally fair, since that's probably happened in this country too.

[RandBlade]

You expect a country with 300 million people to function flawlessly? At least we don't regularly let serial felons out on the street after a month.

No I don't, so don't make on the one hand a claim using one case in isolation as demonstrating that a law is wrong ... while on the other hand claiming that all other 49 states manage OK (disregarding any problems). Its hypocritical.

[Loki]

Your standard for having an "ok" system seems to be perfection.

[RandBlade]

No, but if you're going to highlight one case then don't ignore others. If the other 49 are OK, what's so special that stops this one being OK too?

[CitizenCain]

Look, there's really no reason to argue here.

Let's just all agree that Florida's even more fucked up than most of the other 49 states.

[GGT]

Especially when said police department is caught mouthing "self defense" at the scene, and making statements that there's no case to media. Straight up, a bunch of Southern cops came across a dead nigglet who'd been killed by a white man, and that was all they needed to make up their minds about what happened.

Now that they've been caught in the public embarrassment this is, they'll blame SYG and the victim and anyone else they can to deflect attention away from the fact that they're racist shits who are too lazy and bigoted to actually do their fucking jobs. I dare say that if this has been the other way around, and a black teen had shot a white homeowner in Florida, the suspect would be on death row before anyone could even say "stand your ground law."

And, of course, it's not like police departments have any discretion in bringing charges or anything...

You're white, so you probably won't have to worry about it. Minxy, on the other hand, might wanna stay away from Florida, yeah.

Except he's right. Current self defense laws in a lot of the US put an onus on the victim to ensure there's no option to flee, only retaliate with "proportionate" force, and basically exhaust every other option available before resorting to actually defending yourself, and then if you defend yourself too effectively, you can be prosecuted.

SYG laws are the public backlash against that kind of bullshit, and in general, cops and prosecutors, being the vermin they are, respond to these laws by deliberately fucking things up, so they can blame the law they don't like for why justice wasn't done and they didn't even fucking try to do their fucking jobs.

Exactly. It's just a symptom of the schizophrenic and draconian nature of the American legal system.

As much as it may pain you, Cain I agree with you on the racial under/over-tones, and the utter incompetency <possibly corruption> of the police department in this Florida city. (Slight correction, though---Zimmerman is Latino, not white.)

Sanford is large enough to have a Mayor, City Manager, Board of Commissioners, and a Police Chief. Even though they're on a 2nd or 3rd Police Chief replacement, in response to complaints of police brutality, racial profiling, and preferential treatment for relatives of police....it seems the rot and corruption hasn't been rooted out.

I've read reports that Zimmerman was given special status on the scene, because he's taking courses to become a Sanford policeman. Even though he was "acting" as a neighborhood watch guy and wasn't supposed to be carrying a weapon---let alone following a "suspect". 911 dispatch told him as much, but he ignored that.

Sanford police did NOT do their job. They didn't treat it as a crime scene, cordon off the area, protect or collect evidence, and arrest Zimmerman on the spot. Now his clothing and physical condition can't be used as forensic evidence. I have no idea how ANY cop could decide to let him go, right on the spot, after a young kid had been gunned to death. It reeks of police corruption.


Also, I'm not aware of the hundreds of thousands of people clamoring for laws to legitimize, or expand self-protection. The kind of thing that would explain these new "Defend Your Ground" laws. Self-defense has always been an acceptable and legally recognized reason for "justifiable homicide". Whether it's involuntary manslaughter, or other legal definitions of possible crimes....those are left to the DAs and prosecutors of jurisprudence. Cops aren't supposed to act as judge and jury.

It's a sad and pathetic future for all of us, if the "best evidence" means acts need to be caught on camera, or recorded on cell phones. Trayvon would have been just another kid killed by someone with a gun who saw him as a "threat". Kill them dead...and they can't speak in their own defense.

[RandBlade]

Not sure corruption is the right word. I don't think any money or favours changed hands. Racism/bias/whatever ... any death by shooting should always be taken as a crime scene at first, no matter what.

I suspect that had the races been reversed, then it would have been thoroughly and properly investigated.

[Loki]

If the victim was Hispanic and the shooter black?

[Ominous Gamer]

Personally I think it has to do with a snowballing effect from the police being lazy while/and trying to help out a neighborhood watch member; with these groups, its not uncommon to have at least one member thats friendly with, or well known within, the local police circles.

[Khendraja'aro]

Coming from the guy who supports his country's war technology, because it records identifiable characteristics of someone who's out in public.

Stay classy, Mr. pot.

Uh, what?

[Aimless]

He's not actually a member of any real neighborhood watch

[CitizenCain]

Not sure corruption is the right word. I don't think any money or favours changed hands.

Monetary gain is just the most common form corruption takes. Doing favors for your buddies, or fellow felons with badges, etc. is also "corrupt" behavior.

cor·rup·tion   [kuh-ruhp-shuhn]
noun
1. the act of corrupting or state of being corrupt.
2. moral perversion; depravity.
3. perversion of integrity.
4. corrupt or dishonest proceedings.
5. bribery.

#3: "perversion of integrity." Doesn't matter whether you make money off the perversion, or just do it because you're a power-tripping fucktard who couldn't hack it as a soldier (or whatever else), it's "corruption" all the same.

Unless, of course, you wanna argue that cops don't have any integrity in the first place, so you can't pervert or corrupt what isn't there... I could agree with that vehemently.

Uh, what?

It's a hypocrisy thing, and I know you don't give a shit about being consistent or being a hypocrite or anything like that, so no need to worry your purty little head about it.

[Lewkowski]

Fry em. The kid didn't even steal anything... if he had the guy would be justified, but he didn't so it should be an open and shut case.