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Thread: Shooting of Trayvon Martin

  1. #1

    Default Shooting of Trayvon Martin

    Just moments before Trayvon Martin was shot and killed, he was on his cellphone talking with a 16-year-old girl. For the first time, the girl is speaking out about the last, horrifying moments of Martin's life.

    "He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," the girl told ABC News. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run."

    According to accounts gleaned from 911 audio recordings made the night of the killing and the teenage girl's statements, Martin eventually did run. But Zimmerman wasn't far behind, and soon the two would be face to face. Zimmerman, the self-appointed captain of the neighborhood watch, was armed with a 9mm pistol. Trayvon had little more than a bag of candy in his pocket.

    "Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for?' and the man said, 'What are you doing here?' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the headset just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

    The line went dead, according to the girl's account.

    As reported by ABC News, Trayvon's phone records show that he was on the phone with the girl (whose parents asked that her name not be used) just five minutes before the police arrived on the scene.

    "He knew he was being followed and tried to get away from the guy, and the guy still caught up with him," Tracey Martin, Trayvon's father, told ABC. "And that's the most disturbing part: He thought he had got away from the guy, and the guy back-tracked for him."

    The police would arrive at the scene -- a patch of grass between a row of townhomes at the Retreat at Twin Lakes, the gated community in the Orlando suburb of Sanford, where Trayvon, 17, was visiting his father -- to find the teen dead from a single gunshot wound to the chest.

    The Sanford police questioned Zimmerman, 28, who told them that he killed Martin is self-defense. Zimmerman was soon released without being charged.

    The police say they do not have enough evidence to counter Zimmerman's claims.

    But with the national media spotlight shining more brightly, hundreds of thousands across the country have joined outraged calls to action, signing petitions calling for Zimmerman's arrest or are joining rallies and protests in support of Martin.

    The pieces of the puzzle surrounding Martin's killing on Feb. 26 are slowly coming together, as more witnesses come forward to correct the record about what they saw and heard that night. Meanwhile, more scrutiny is being put on how local law enforcement has handled the case, as state and federal authorities have stepped in to investigate the killing further.

    The Sanford police handed the case over to the State Attorney's Office last week, and yesterday the Justice Department and the FBI announced that they would be joining the probe into Martin's killing.

    The Justice Department has promised to "conduct a thorough and independent review of all evidence and take appropriate action at the conclusion of the investigation," according to a statement late Monday. And Seminole County State Attorney Norm Wolfinger announced Tuesday morning that he plans to convene a grand jury to determine if Zimmerman should be charged in Martin’s death.

    The girl's statements -- in conjunction with those of other witnesses and audio recordings of 911 calls made the night of the killing -- offer a clearer picture of what happened that night.

    While Martin was on the phone with the girl, Zimmerman was on the line with a 911 dispatcher, reporting Martin as a "suspicious person."

    "This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something," Zimmerman tells the 911 operator. "He's just staring, looking at all the houses. Now he's coming toward me. He's got his hand in his waistband. Something's wrong with him."

    Zimmerman described Martin as wearing a hoodie and sweatpants or jeans.

    Zimmerman continues: "He's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. Can we get an officer over here?"

    "These assholes always get away," he says later to the operator. Zimmerman is then heard giving directions to the dispatcher.

    "Shit, he's running," Zimmerman says.

    "Are you following him?" the dispatcher asks.

    "Yes," Zimmerman responds.

    "We don't need you to do that," the dispatcher says.

    Zimmerman continued to pursue Martin, and moments later other calls started coming in to 911. Neighbors reported hearing screams, cries for help and then gunfire. Some sobbed as they talked about a dead boy and a man standing over him. In one recording, the sounds of wailing and what seem to be pleas for help and "No! No!" can be heard.

    According to the Miami Herald, Zimmerman told the police that he had stepped out of his SUV to check the name of the street he was on, and that Trayvon sprang out of nowhere to attack him from behind as he was walking back to his truck. He said he feared for his life and shot Martin in self-defense. That account doesn't easily fit into the narrative cobbled together from what evidence had been made public.

    "I think the [girl's account] is just more corroborative evidence that Trayvon was not the aggressor and that he was being actively pursued by George Zimmerman," said Jasmine Rand, one of the Martin family's attorneys.

    Rand said the girl, a friend from Miami where Trayvon lived with his mother, "probably heard the moments closest to the end of his life, and she says that Zimmerman was pursuing him and that he pushed him or was physically aggressive with him."

    That account, and corroboration from other witnesses who dispute that Zimmerman was acting in self-defense, she said, could be key in determining if Zimmerman acted legally that night.

    "What we have now is several witnesses saying the same thing: that Zimmerman was the aggressor, that he followed him and pursued him and at some point was on top of him," Rand said. "If you're trying to use a claim of self-defense, you can't be the one chasing, you can't be chasing the person that you say is being aggressive against you."

    In the days after the shooting, witnesses have said they had trouble reaching the police to give their statements. Others would say that investigators twisted their testimony to fit a self-defense theory, asked leading questions during questioning and that, on the night of the killing, investigators peppered Zimmerman with questions before he could tell his story.

    "It was self-defense," one witness said an investigator mouthed at the scene.
    Source

    If you want, you can go find a bunch of audios of all the different calls that were placed around this shooting. As far as I can tell, the entire thing seems really clear-cut to me - Zimmerman is a murderer. At first I held off judgement figuring that police knew something that the rest of us didn't that showed that it was self-defence, but that doesn't seem to be the case. All evidence I've seen from the media seems to draw a fairly clear picture of Zimmerman killing this kid for no apparent reason. I really don't understand why authorities seem reluctant to prosecute Zimmerman in this case - that guy should be behind bars right now, not sitting in his home.

    Anyways, curious to see if anyone knows anything I don't, or is willing to defend Zimmerman. My access to news media has been patchy lately, so it's completely possible there's something I'm just missing.

  2. #2
    The problem seems to be Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, which has an incredibly low requirement for invoking self-defence. There was a case where a guy killed a homeless man who might have pushed him, and the former wasn't charged with a crime.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    another reason our new law sucks. paper yesterday said something along the lines that our homocide cases without charges have more than tripled because of it.

    I can understand defend your castle, but this stand your ground law is simply awful.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 03-20-2012 at 04:40 PM.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The problem seems to be Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, which has an incredibly low requirement for invoking self-defence.
    Being attacked or threatened with violence, isn't it? I don't see how it applies here. Zimmerman was chasing the kid, not the other way around.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Being attacked or threatened with violence, isn't it? I don't see how it applies here. Zimmerman was chasing the kid, not the other way around.
    Seems fairly open-and-shut case from what I've read here. There's no reason to pursue someone who isn't and hasn't posed a threat to you or your loved ones, and then shoot them in the chest. It's murder.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Being attacked or threatened with violence, isn't it? I don't see how it applies here. Zimmerman was chasing the kid, not the other way around.
    The kid had an argument with the killer, so perhaps the former pushed the latter or something.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The kid had an argument with the killer, so perhaps the former pushed the latter or something.
    Would that be before or after the stalking and the chasing?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The kid had an argument with the killer, so perhaps the former pushed the latter or something.
    The only report of any thing close to an argument I've heard was Martin asking why Zimmerman was following him, and running away. There was no physical contact until Zimmerman caught him. That seems to be the extent of their interactions before Zimmerman pulled a gun and shot.

  9. #9
    IANAL and I also do not have the complete case before me. But it certainly does seem on the face of it to be a miscarriage of justice if Zimmerman is not at least tried for the shooting.

  10. #10
    "These assholes always get away," he says later to the operator. Zimmerman is then heard giving directions to the dispatcher.

    "Shit, he's running," Zimmerman says.

    "Are you following him?" the dispatcher asks.

    "Yes," Zimmerman responds.

    "We don't need you to do that," the dispatcher says.

    Zimmerman continued to pursue Martin
    A bit unfair to judge before a trial etc, but from this quote alone it sounds deliberate. Someone thinking Lewk-style that he's ridding the world of a thief and is justified.
    Last edited by Wraith; 03-20-2012 at 07:50 PM. Reason: Rendering Readable - W
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Anyways, curious to see if anyone knows anything I don't, or is willing to defend Zimmerman. My access to news media has been patchy lately, so it's completely possible there's something I'm just missing.
    Concern over the prosecution's ability to meet that "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. Because if the kid did change from flight to fight while being pursued then under Florida law it COULD well have become a self-defense situation for Zimmerman.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Concern over the prosecution's ability to meet that "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. Because if the kid did change from flight to fight while being pursued then under Florida law it COULD well have become a self-defense situation for Zimmerman.
    So, under Florida law you can provoke someone (following them), or somehow escalate the situation, cause them to react with (mild) violence then be legally justified in killing them?
    When the sky above us fell
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    Into kingdom come

  13. #13
    Yes.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  14. #14
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    With a good enough lawyer and dumb enough jury, yes.
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  15. #15
    These cases aren't going to jury, charges aren't even being filed. This exact case is only where its at currently because of the backlash from that (possible) decision.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    These cases aren't going to jury, charges aren't even being filed. This exact case is only where its at currently because of the backlash from that (possible) decision.
    The case actually is going before a Grand Jury, and they will decide whether or not to indict Zimmerman.

    Unless I misunderstood you, and you are instead speaking more generally about other Stand Your Ground cases.

  17. #17
    "To begin, the police department doesn’t believe it has probable cause to obtain an arrest warrant for George Zimmerman, according to WESH-TV. When officers request a warrant from a judge, they must sign a sworn affidavit attesting to the evidence and the presence of probable cause. The department claims it would be lying to the court if it signed such an affidavit."

    I can only imagine a defence attorney referring to this quote during a trial. I think if this guy does get convicted, it would be on federal civil rights charges.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    The case actually is going before a Grand Jury, and they will decide whether or not to indict Zimmerman.

    Unless I misunderstood you, and you are instead speaking more generally about other Stand Your Ground cases.
    A decision that came after the FBI and Department of Justice said they would step in, after the calls for arrest created one of the largest change.org petitions, which came after the local police department decided they didn't have probable cause for an arrest warrant.


    I orginally said (possible) because I couldn't remember if the police were taking their sweet time in making an arrest or decided against making one.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    A decision that came after the FBI and Department of Justice said they would step in, after the calls for arrest created one of the largest change.org petitions, which came after the local police department decided they didn't have probable cause for an arrest warrant.
    I'm not disagreeing that it appears as though the investigation was bungled, or that the local police department seems to be either incredibly incompetent or criminally corrupt, but I did want to note that there is a case proceeding forward, and it may yet lead to charges being filed.

  20. #20
    yes, as much is said in the OP. The grand jury is what I was referring to when I mentioned "where its at currently"
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Yes.
    And, I suppose, Trayvon Martin would have been equally justified in killing Zimmerman, had he possessed the means?
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  22. #22
    Considering that he'd easily be able to prove his reason for being in the place he was shot, I would imagine so. Given that he wasn't a suck-up to the police, he'd probably get arrested before being released though.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  23. #23
    Stay classy Florida.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  24. #24
    Well the amount of justified homicides increased from 13 a year before the new Stand Your Ground law to 39 a year after.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #25
    If the rest of 'merica were to basically nuke Florida and kill everyone it it, this would clearly be justified homicide.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  26. #26
    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/20/op...html?hpt=us_c2

    Interesting how much less of an outrage there was over the David James case.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    So, under Florida law you can provoke someone (following them), or somehow escalate the situation, cause them to react with (mild) violence then be legally justified in killing them?
    My understanding of the current system in Florida is that if you are suffering from immediate violence you can use violence to defend yourself up to and including lethal force. So yes, you can still be engaging in self-defense even if you provoked the violence provided you did not directly initiate it.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  28. #28
    Just to be clear, I do support the principle behind the SYG law, but the wording and enforcement seems to be flawed.

  29. #29
    Sorry, but a law should take into account how it will be enforced by the police and juries. Any kind of law that regularly leads to these kind of outcomes is incredibly flawed. Why would anyone think that the proper first response to being threatened is to escalate the dispute by pulling a weapon?
    Last edited by Loki; 03-21-2012 at 01:34 AM.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Why would anyone think that the proper first response to being threatened is be to escalate the dispute by pulling a weapon?
    Macho fantasies.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

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