The odds of the US turning into a totalitarian hellhole similar to eg. Nazi Germany

[GGT]

I suppose it is an academic point, until someone gives me a lab. Or someone like me... The real world doesn't limit us that much, not that much.

[Steely Glint]

The real world doesn't limit us that much, not that much.

You won't be saying that when your lab is getting bombed.

[EyeKhan]

It is not science fiction to suggest one builds a device on their own soil which'd, to put it in poetic terms, cracks the Earth in half. It'd be feasible, I think. If you gave me a lab and some able people, I think I could do it...

Are you keeping the general theoretical science underlying this theory secret just in case? No sarcasm at all, I'm interested read what you could build in a lab to crack the world in half.

From a strategic point of view, it is the perfect deterrent. You shove me too much, whoops, there goes the whole globe. And once you have it, no one's going to stop you from having one, either...

No, its the worst deterent. If there ever was a bluff, this would be one.

It takes a certain kind of regime to wield devices like that. It is my (somewhat informed) opinion that the Nazis would have.

The Nazis wouldn't even weild chemical weapons when it was clear their goose was cooked. And why wouldn't they? Their enemies were utterly unprepared after all, and the threat of the allies using them too was moot since the Reich was falling anyway.

There are others, other wonderful devices I can think of... It doesn't take much doing, but it takes will. The wonderful thing about Nazism was the power of will over matter. It can be done. So many choices...

I can think of all sorts of fun stuff too, but odds are nobody could or would build them. Which is sort of the point.

Who would bomb you guys? Who would arrest you?

Nobody in the US would build one. Remember where the Power is in the US - coporate money. That would be the case even if we go totalitarian and there's no way to make money off a device to crack the world in half. Nobody's going to build something like that, even if it were possible. There is nothing to be gained.

Chaloobi's question was, how to blow it thoroughly... I know of ways. Many ways... He claimed, as did Little Fuzzy, that they were impossible.

They are impossible as far as I'm concerned. Surely you don't expect me to take your word for it?

That's not technically true. The Soviets built one, and by most reports, it's still in effect. It's called Dead Hand, and can purportedly launch all Russian ICBMs if their automated systems detect a nuclear strike on Russian soil.

The degree of automation, and even its implementation is debatable, but really, it's hard to see either side's nuclear arsenals as anything short of a doomsday machine.

(Which is not say you're wrong about the general point or anything, but well, whatever, you've been drinking, so I felt compelled to point it out. Or something like that.)

Even if that exists and it worked it still wouldn't sterilize the planet. And what if a medium sized meteor hit, would that set the damn thing off?

These are "facts" only humans recognize. After we've explored, hypothesized, studied, and analyzed millions/billions of years of history. Our planet, solar system, galaxy, universe....existed long before any of our human ancestors grew from the primordial ooze pool. It's kind of cool to realize that we're still in the midst of "mining" that information, and putting into human context. (Even though we still have flat earth biblical fundies who insist the planet is only 5,000 years old )

Yeah, maybe I would. If I thought all of this was just a product of my imagination, or the machinations in my mind, it makes sense to keep it going, right? I've had really great dreams that worked that way, and awoke feeling rather disappointed that I couldn't keep the dream going. I've also had dreams within dreams, and awoke within that nanosecond of a time warp, when the brain can't distinguish between what's "real" or imagined. Hollywood is better at exploring and portraying those moments in our subconsciousness than we are. It's easier to categorize it as "entertainment", than admit the schizoid or paranoid thoughts in our own brains, I suppose. Rather like driving off a cliff with a bag of popcorn instead of a parachute.

I suppose it is an academic point, until someone gives me a lab. Or someone like me... The real world doesn't limit us that much, not that much.

Bah. I call nonsense.

[Nessus]

Fair enough. I can't prove it other than by doing it, and no one would want that...

The underlying theory is simply the application of force. We know that there is, in principle, no limit to that. Cracking the Earth in half, again using some poetic license with the terminology, would only require so much, we can compute that, and it's always possible to figure out a way of generating enough force... In that fascism wasn't all misguided, Will can be turned into Power, we've worked it out now. And we can work it out further, humans are so good at that...

But you don't have to believe me. There are so few comforts in this world already...

The Nazis didn't use chemical weapons, if I recall correctly, because Hitler was so traumatized by them in the first go-around. Not that he had much empathy otherwise...

[LittleFuzzy]

I suppose it is an academic point, until someone gives me a lab. Or someone like me... The real world doesn't limit us that much, not that much.

And all the resources necessary? And everyone with any information about it absolutely committed to immolation? I think I'll stick to my position. Maybe it can become a real-world possibility sometime in the future but it's not one now.

[CitizenCain]

Even if that exists and it worked it still wouldn't sterilize the planet. And what if a medium sized meteor hit, would that set the damn thing off?

Seems unlikely, if they have even rudimentary radiological or light sensors feeding it information. Maybe if this asteroid mining thing from the other thread is a success, we can test with one of those (once they've gotten most of the good stuff out of one of the asteroids, of course).

And again, whether or not it sterilizes the biosphere, how else would you describe a system that could trigger thousands of nuclear explosions, blanketing the globe in gigatonnes of nuclear fire? "Doomsday machine" sounds about right to me.

[EyeKhan]

And again, whether or not it sterilizes the biosphere, how else would you describe a system that could trigger thousands of nuclear explosions, blanketing the globe in gigatonnes of nuclear fire? "Doomsday machine" sounds about right to me.

It wouldn't blanket the globe though, just whatever the missles target, "the West" - the US and allies. Sure there'd be lots of fallout and maybe a nuclear winter and so on. Maybe all the humans would die. Maybe anything larger than a cockroach would die. But would deep ocean volcanic vent ecosystems even be affected? Would all the bacteria in all the little nooks and crannies of Everywhere planet Earth be killed? Even the ones in protective cysts that can survive frozen or desicated for millenia? Very doubtful. You'd have to crack the world into pieces - like Nessus wants to do - and throw them into the sun for good measure to be sure all life is gone.

[Wraith]

We just need to form some strangelets and check to see if the really do become more stable as they become larger.

[Nessus]

And all the resources necessary? And everyone with any information about it absolutely committed to immolation? I think I'll stick to my position. Maybe it can become a real-world possibility sometime in the future but it's not one now.

I think that is the key. For Nazism, I would do it, no questions asked. Other Nazis, as committed as I, would provide the resources, would not fear the immolation. Nazism is no longer what it was, neither is Communism, but I think both would have enough fanatics, enough believers. The situation in America right now is peculiar, the ideology of hatred is not lock-step with the ideology of unity (of those not hated), you are probably right there is not enough Will to transform into actual Power.

[CitizenCain]

Um, except that the ideologies of hatred are historically also ideologies of unity. Unite against the the outsiders and hate on the mud peoples or whatever.

[Loki]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17956202

[GGT]

Um, except that the ideologies of hatred are historically also ideologies of unity. Unite against the the outsiders and hate on the mud peoples or whatever.

Hatred is a manifestation of Fear. Fear is a manifestation of ignorance. Those things trigger an automatic human Fight or Flight response. Historically, people figured out pretty fast that it was better to form a partnership, join a group or belong to a unit -- to stay alive -- than it was to go it alone.

That's true from the Dark Ages to today. But our modern cultures aren't as small or far apart as the Dark Ages; we're closer not just in proximity, as the global population borders merge, but in the "social ideology" and technology that unites us. We don't have to think/act like warriors or soldiers just to stay alive (in first world nations). We don't have to limit our definitions of Unity based on fear or hatred...but it is still connected to ignorance. It's just a different kind of unaware ignorance....I think today's term would be "bias confirmation"?

[EyeKhan]

Actually, that was true far earlier than the Dark Ages. Human cooperation is not cultural, it's genetic and its arguably the biggest reason we didn't go extinct long ago. On a species level we don't choose to be social and cooperative, we are social and cooperative.

[CitizenCain]

Hatred is a manifestation of Fear. Fear is a manifestation of ignorance.

And that's what leads to the Dark Side, right?

FYI, Star Wars is a work of fiction, and a pretty crappy one at that.