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Thread: Derivative trading rears its ugly head...AGAIN

  1. #1

    Default Derivative trading rears its ugly head...AGAIN

    This time from JP Morgan, and Jamie Dimon. Once the darlings of risk-analysis and best-banking methods, now forced to eat a $2 Billion loss--- and some humble pie. No wonder they lobbied so hard to keep the loophole that allowed them to continue using those WMD (credit default swaps as hedges against loss) from their proprietary trading desk.


    At JPMorgan, the Ghost of Dinner Parties Past

    By GRETCHEN MORGENSON
    Published: May 12, 2012


    WHAT goes around comes around. Sometimes it happens sooner than you’d think.

    That round wheel turned on JPMorgan Chase last week, which disclosed that it had suffered a $2 billion trading loss in credit derivatives. That such a hit had befallen the mightiest of banks was perhaps more stunning than the size of the loss.

    So where does the karma come in? The loss, and the embarrassment it held forJamie Dimon, the bank’s imperious chief executive, came just one month after a private dinner party in Dallas at which he assailed two respected public figures who have pushed for policies that would make banks like JPMorgan smaller and less risky.

    One was Paul Volcker, the former Federal Reserve chairman, whose remedy for risky trading by too-big-to-fail banks is known as the Volcker Rule. The other was Richard W. Fisher, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas, who has also argued that large institutions should be slimmed down or limited in their risky trading practices.

    The party, sponsored by JPMorgan for a group of its wealthy private clients, took place at the sumptuous Mansion on Turtle Creek hotel. Mr. Dimon was on hand to thank the guests for their patronage and their trust.

    During the party, Mr. Dimon took questions from the crowd, according to an attendee who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of alienating the bank. One guest asked about the problem of too-big-to-fail banks and the arguments made by Mr. Volcker and Mr. Fisher.
    Mr. Dimon responded that he had just two words to describe them: “infantile” and “nonfactual.” He went on to lambaste Mr. Fisher further, according to the attendee. Some in the room were taken aback by the comments.

    Neither Mr. Fisher nor Mr. Volcker would comment on the remarks. But it appears to have been a classic performance from Mr. Dimon. In-your-face. Pugnacious. My way or the highway.

    Mr. Dimon declined to comment.

    AS overseer of the bank that emerged in the best shape from the credit crisis, Mr. Dimon has gained in stature in recent years. Hailed for his management skill, he has also become the financial industry’s point man in the war against tighter regulation of derivatives and proprietary trading. Almost since the financial crisis began, JPMorgan Chase and its legion of lobbyists have swarmed lawmakers and regulators in an effort to beat back efforts to bring transparency to derivatives and to separate risk-taking activities like proprietary trading from commercial lending units.

    JPMorgan has not been alone in these efforts. But it has had more clout because of its position as the grown-up in the financial industry’s playground.

    The industry’s efforts to curtail or derail both derivatives transparency and the Volcker Rule — which would eliminate proprietary trading at commercial banks — have had significant effects. In the case of the Volcker Rule, lobbying has made the proposed regulation vastly more complex. Mr. Volcker himself told lawmakers at a Congressional hearing last week that “I could give you stories all day about lobbyists making things more complicated.”

    The financial industry’s opposition has delayed the effective dates of regulatory changes. Had those delays not occurred, it’s possible that JPMorgan would not have incurred its big and jarring loss.

    Mr. Dimon does not agree with this assessment, judging from his comments in a conference call last Thursday. But it’s an argument made persuasively by Michael Greenberger, a law professor at the University of Maryland and an authority on derivatives. He said that if two still-pending aspects of the Dodd-Frank legislation had been in effect, JPMorgan’s trading position probably wouldn’t have been allowed to grow as large as it did. Even better, the trades might not have been made by the bank at all.

    “If the trades at issue were proprietary trading, as now appears to be the case, they would be banned by the Volcker Rule,” Mr. Greenberger said. “And if derivatives rules under Dodd-Frank had been in effect, these trades would almost certainly have been required to be cleared and transparently executed. The losing nature of the trades, therefore, would have been obvious to market observers and regulators for quite some time and the losses would not have piled up opaquely.”

    Mr. Greenberger is talking about Title VII, the section of the Dodd-Frank law dealing with over-the-counter derivatives, which were at the heart of the JPMorgan trades. It would require clearing on an exchange and transparent execution of these derivatives. Under these rules, when trades go against an institution, additional capital would have to be supplied. “A Title VII clearing facility would have priced this trade regularly, and if it kept moving away, the facility would have been asking for margin,” Mr. Greenberger said. “That kind of discipline tends to head people off from these positions.”

    But regulators are still hammering out the Title VII rules, and the lobbyists are hellbent on weakening them. This much is clear: If the Glass-Steagall law were still around, the problematic trading at JPMorgan would not have occurred.

    The hypocrisy is that our nation’s big financial institutions, protected by implied taxpayer guarantees, oppose regulation on the grounds that it would increase their costs and reduce their profit. Such rules are unfair, they contend. But in discussing fairness, they never talk about how fair it is to require taxpayers to bail out reckless institutions when their trades imperil them. That’s a question for another day.
    AND the fact that large institutions arguing against transparency in derivatives trading won’t acknowledge that such rules could also save them from themselves is quite the paradox.

    “These regulations are not just protecting the United States taxpayer,” Mr. Greenberger said. “They protect the banks themselves. The best friend of these banks would be laws that prevent them from shooting themselves in the foot. The fact is, they can’t do it themselves.”

    As if we had to learn that lesson again.

  2. #2
    OMG, a private business lost money. The horror. The government needs to ban this ASAP!
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    OMG, a private business lost money. The horror. The government needs to ban this ASAP!
    Sounds like you didn't bother to read up on this issue. If you had, you'd know Dimon's contrite confessions recognized the need for regulatory reforms that he once called 'infantile'.

    Dimon gets kudos for the mea culpa, at least. That's more than any other CEO did, even during the great financial crisis of '08. We'll see if anyone gets fired or loses their huge bonii in the aftermath. JPMorgan lost a small amount of money compared to their overall profits, so that's not the main problem. They were trying to protect against internal losses (from the EU) by buying unregulated/opaque synthetic insurance products, instead of making actual financial investments that would benefit their shareholders and clients, too.

    The "real problem" is that Big Banks have grown so big and complex, that even the Best Banks don't operate according to their highest business standards. When Too Big To Fail, or Too Big To Bail-Out has come to mean Too Big To Manage...they're also too big to regulate. Seriously, another AIG v 2.0 would likely take our whole economy down the second time around, and have ripples across the financial world.

  4. #4
    The main problem is that losing money is viewed as an issue for the government to address. If JP Morgan doesn't want to lose $2 billion, they shouldn't make idiotic investments. No one forced them to undertake so much risk. Heads are already starting to roll, and that is the proper response to incompetence. I see no reason why the government should be part of the story.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #5
    My turn to say.....you have no idea what you're talking about.

  6. #6
    Whenever anyone loses money or makes a bad decision, the government should step in and take control?

  7. #7
    We need the government to tell businesses what to do every step of the way to make sure the businesses don't make any bad decisions.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Whenever anyone loses money or makes a bad decision, the government should step in and take control?
    That's how Loki describes things.

    When the largest banks are 1/6 of the US economy and GDP, own a large chunk of national wealth by industry sector, hold Trillions in debt-based "investments" that tower over the top country's sovereign debt combined.....that's a problem. It's a problem when banks and systemically-important financial institutions (SIFI) can take down entire countries with their mistakes. We had a preview in '07-'08, remember?

    The global market for credit-default swaps is estimated between $10-20 TRILLION, but no one knows for sure because it's a black box/dark pool of money sloshing around the "shadow banking" system. Unfortunately, those banks and SIFI are entwined with everyone's mutual funds, 401-Ks, IRAs, pension plans, municipal bonds and county/state budgets.

  9. #9
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Whenever anyone loses money or makes a bad decision, the government should step in and take control?
    When the party in question is too big to fail? Absolutely. I find it astounding how you're ignoring that particular issue.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  10. #10
    I'm not a fan of the very idea of too big to fail.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I'm not a fan of the very idea of too big to fail.
    Good job, Khen, that's exactly the social issue at hand here. These big bets can affect society too much that's why there is interest in potentially regulating them. It's not about a private business losing some of their own money, we could all care less about that.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Whenever anyone loses money or makes a bad decision, the government should step in and take control?
    It's basic road traffic safety man.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  13. #13
    Any future bailouts should be conditional on the bank in question accepting rules that forbid this kind of thing. If they want government protection, they can live with the rules government sets out. If they'd rather play fast and loose, they're free to do so... and live with the consequences. People can then decide where it is wise to put their money.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  14. #14
    I should add that people don't seem to realize how little $2 billion means to a bank like JP Morgan (assuming they learn their lesson). It makes over $5 billion a quarter in income. Losing 40% of that isn't exactly going to force it into bankruptcy. In fact, it can make a mistake like this once a quarter and still be fine.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I should add that people don't seem to realize how little $2 billion means to a bank like JP Morgan (assuming they learn their lesson). It makes over $5 billion a quarter in income. Losing 40% of that isn't exactly going to force it into bankruptcy. In fact, it can make a mistake like this once a quarter and still be fine.
    So you're tellin' me if JP lost 2 billion dollars every quarter, that's not going to affect it's profit margin enough that will affect the amount of investment it has? That's the real killer if people begin investing their money elsewhere to perhaps more safely acting venues than one losing 2 billion dollars a quarter, and one that is probably giving higher returns than one that is losing 2 billion dollars every quarter.


    On government bailouts, I agree with them, but only with strings of equal value being placed on the company. I don't believe in giving out free hand outs to encourage failure/taking big risks.

  16. #16
    Why exactly is it the government's business if a private firm is losing 40% of its profits? If they want to be stupid, it's their option.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    The government is intersted in the economic spillage, not the company. (well they are interested in the company currently because of corruption), but in general they should be worrying about market player activiities because of the economic ramification they can have for their society.

  18. #18
    So you think the government should enact legislation and regulations that would prevent private firms from losing money?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    So you think the government should enact legislation and regulations that would prevent private firms from losing money?
    Yes if they lose so much as a penny the entire firm should be nuked, and any surrounding areas will be destroyed as well, but that's just guilt by association.

    I think what's best is to let large and small financial groups screw up as they please; however, if they are going to go under and cause a huge financial crisis then in that case we can bail them out under a couple conditions. Here are a couple ideas I would submit:

    Bailing them out but require repayment by the company, and require all money earned from the decision making officials during the period of bad policy to be repaid with interest over so many years. If the decision making individuals get off in the case of a bail out they still have no incentive to play the game correctly and it creates moral hazard.

    If we can get rid of the moral hazard that bailing out creats we'll have solved 3/4 the problem. The last problem is holding a company spot as #1 (via bailouts) because it's #1 makes it harder for perhaps bettter and more competitive firms from rising. Not impossible just harder, that's the 1/4 still dislike about bail outs.

  20. #20
    JP Morgan was not bailed out and will not need a bail out after this. So again, what's the relevance of the government to this?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  21. #21
    I think it is more the fact that this seems indicative of the fact that have learned nothing rather than the scale of this specific incident.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  22. #22
    They've learned enough to lose $2 billion instead of $200 billion. Scale matters. We wouldn't need to bail most banks out if they lost 1% of what they did.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    JP Morgan was not bailed out and will not need a bail out after this. So again, what's the relevance of the government to this?
    I don't care much about this thread, but a quick fact check: JP Morgan got $25 billion in TARP money.

  24. #24
    I stand corrected, though I stand by the spirit of what I said. JP Morgan did not need TARP; it was forced to take it so as not to single out weak banks.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #25
    Or just not have bailouts and let the cards fall where they may.

  26. #26
    Bad when they succeed.
    Bad when they do not succeed.
    This is abusive.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebanese Dragon View Post
    The government is intersted in the economic spillage, not the company. (well they are interested in the company currently because of corruption), but in general they should be worrying about market player activiities because of the economic ramification they can have for their society.
    Agreed. The "government" does have a role in legislation and regulation in the financial/banking industry. Whether it's from the IRS, SEC, CFTC, FDIC...or interest-free money from Federal Reserve or Treasury 'intervention'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    So you think the government should enact legislation and regulations that would prevent private firms from losing money?
    You missed the point. Everyone knows laws and regs will NEVER keep banks or financial firms from losing money, or taking risks --- that's not what laws and regs are meant to do. They're supposed to protect consumers (fraud, ponzi schemes), peer institutions (monopolies, anti-competition favoritism)....and limiting risks that can take down an entire economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Bad when they succeed.
    Bad when they do not succeed.
    This is abusive.
    No. Certain types of synthetic derivatives are "bad" when even the experts using them don't know what they are, the level of risk associated, or its contagion affects. They're "bad" when used as a hedge against losses from other investments, and being sloppy (or taking too much risk) with those investments because they're "insured" (the credit-default swap). It's the product that's bad, ugly, and toxic. It's the same type of highly complicated and complex "tool" that back-fired in '08....almost taking down the whole financial industry and several economies.

    What borders on abusive is that these financial "instruments" haven't been required to transact on a monitored open-exchange, or treated as insurance products (and regulated by insurance commissioners and actuarials, with higher capital requirements)....because lobbyists cried in their punch bowl about parts of Dodd-Frank or the Volcker rule, and legislators caved.

  28. #28
    Bump. No one has an opinion on this continuing fall-out of JP Morgan's losses, or who actually loses while JPM gains? Nobody questioning if someone like Jamie Dimon should be on the Federal Reserve Board of Governors, as a regional Regulator "Consultant" for his own banking activities?

    Maybe that's why we have a global financial conundrum. Conflicting goals, dual mandates. The ECB trying to mix political and monetary policies between disparate nations and governments, when the only commonthing is the Eurodollar. The US Fed trying to mix employment and USD inflation policies, based on costs of debt and borrowing, giving preference to banks.

    Everyone is trying to 'monetize' their economies, using financial definitions of capital or currency or debt....while neglecting the importance of Human Capital. I think the only true "derivative"....derives....from human capital. Any other "derivative" is either financial engineering, using actuarial data for "insurance" schemes, or outright gambling.

  29. #29
    The continuing fall-out is mostly a product of the media wanting a crisis as well as regulators looking for something to hook their fangs into.

    A $2 billion derivatives loss on a balance sheet of dozens of billions of dollars does not end the world.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Bump. No one has an opinion on this continuing fall-out of JP Morgan's losses
    No, because I don't care. Private companies should be allowed to lose money, even fail.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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