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Thread: Won’t somebody please think of the children?

  1. #1

    Default [Article] Won’t somebody please think of the children?

    Child labor is, without a doubt, a travesty. In a perfect world, no child would ever have to work to help feed his or her family and would be able to go to school happy and well-fed; unfortunately we don’t live in a perfect world. Well-meaning activists spend a great deal of time trying to protect children from the horrors of forced labor, but it seems to me that they often neglect to consider that the alternative may be much worse.

    According to this New York Times article, wealthy Pakistanis use impoverished children as servants at for little or no wages. This is not forbidden by the law, and yet the child workers don’t even receive moderate protection by the law because they are minors. It is doubtful that outlawing the practice would put a halt to desperate parents renting their children out – it is a sad reality that in many cases the extremely poor simply see no other way out of crushing debt and an inability to feed their families. Wouldn’t these children be better off if, instead of pretending the situation did not exist, these children were granted the protection of the law? The NYT article discusses the death of Shazia, a twelve year old maid, and the public backlash that came as a result. A small quantity of regulation could possibly have prevented Shazia’s untimely death, whether it was from illness or torture. It's possible that some education could help eradicate poverty; as it stands a child who doesn’t get to go to school is unlikely to ever be capable of earning enough money to ever leave them in a position not to have to enter their own children into the labor force at a young age.

    An older example of the way child labor has permeated society is the use of child labor in the garment industry. Bangladesh, in particular, had factories employing thousands of children. When Americans discovered that their garments were inexpensive due to the money saved by employing children at slave wages they were outraged. This fury lead to the Harkin Bill – and thousands of children out of work. This may seem like a victory for the good guys, but what it primarily did was to leave children working in even more dangerous conditions. Fortunately, for some of these children, there was some follow up - education programs were put in place. They don’t reach every child with the misfortune of being in the labor force, but at least the former child garment workers received some opportunities.

    It is admirable to attempt to prevent the exploitation of children. Ideally, every child would have the opportunity to go to school and realize all of their dreams. Until that is possible, isn’t it better to work with what is already in existence and improve the lives of the children who are trapped? It would take a very small amount of the foreign aid provided by developed countries to provide families with a stipend to send their children to school. It wouldn’t eliminate child labor, but it would give the children an opportunity that many don’t have now.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  2. #2
    It's not just Pakistan or Bangladesh you know. Haiti allows minors under the age of 15 to work (be traded?) as house servants. They even have a name for it--restavik. Once they turn legal age they are turned out onto the streets.

    How great has the foreign aid managed to protect those kids? It hasn't. Until Haiti had the earthquake, most people had no idea.



    So what gives here Lolli? I was reamed for starting threads without user content or opinion, so where is yours?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    It's not just Pakistan or Bangladesh you know. Haiti allows minors under the age of 15 to work (be traded?) as house servants. They even have a name for it--restavik. Once they turn legal age they are turned out onto the streets.

    How great has the foreign aid managed to protect those kids? It hasn't. Until Haiti had the earthquake, most people had no idea.



    So what gives here Lolli? I was reamed for starting threads without user content or opinion, so where is yours?
    That was my content and opinion, Geegee. Original material at its best.

    And yes, of course there are more examples. Hell, there is child labor in the United States.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

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  5. #5
    Mother Jones

    In 1903 Jones organized children, who were working in mills and mines at the time, to participate in the "Children's Crusade"
    She is in the Hall of Fame.

    Mary Harris "Mother" Jones
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  6. #6
    It's still happening in the United States today, Being. I'm looking for a source, but young children (particularly those of illegal immigrants) are still employed illegally in the United States, generally in the agricultural sector.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  7. #7
    The stats you want may not be found, Lolli. But I can confirm, even if it's anecdotally, that migrant farm workers are desperate enough for employment and sending money "home", that they routinely want their minor children in the field. Rather than enrolling them in school.

    It's a real problem. Only the farm owners/employers can really monitor the situation well. Often they don't want to, because it eats into their profit margins.


  8. #8
    Dial B for Beta X900BTA's Avatar
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    I dug pretty deeply into this some time ago and you're exactly right, lolli. The fact of it shouldn't be used to insulate one from trying to be aware of whether their government or what they're consuming supports child labor in the worst way, and not saying you are but some do this, but understanding that not all nations are like first world nations when it comes to labor, children, sustainability, work, etc. can help prevent the "omg the children!". A number of interviews I read, and I think it was directly related to the Harkin Bill, were very upset that the only option left to them was prostitution.

    The problem is, as it always is, is bullshit media, no good analysis, and stupid people who are turned on in righteous anger by buzzwords and don't understand that there is any reality but their own. For example, a garment shop that works someone 16 years old for 12 hours a day and pays them 20% above median income for their country is not child slave labor. Child labor, sure, but not slave labor. It's only "$10 a day!", but we fail to remember that the average wage is $8 a day and their houses don't cost $200k etc. It's all relative; literally. American families had kids working farms for 12 hours a day with no pay 100+ years ago...and so? I myself have worked 70-90 hour weeks (not counting lunch and dinner mind you) at Atari, so?

    I am completely in favor of these factories, often of foreign origin, providing reasonable working conditions and benefits and such, but beyond that you sometimes need to go with the flow and if the flow says "we're okay with our family working; all of us not just the parents" then that's how they wish to be. Not buying said products only hurts these countries and families, though it does sound illogical to us.

    The answer, I think, is the educational option stop-gap and bridge. It's the same as moving from fossil fuel to alternative clean energy, you will have to go through B to get to C from A. You cannot just snap your fingers and suddenly make Thailand, for example, have no child labor and everyone happy and working in a "typical" fashion that we approve of. There will be transitory steps involved that are still not ideal.

  9. #9
    I've never seen an example where a child was paid more than the median income for a country, though. Child workers are typically hired because they are either cheaper, or because in some way tiny child fingers are considered preferable for the labor involved (like in the rug industry).
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  10. #10
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    But even if they are paid less than the median, if they are paid a wage it's not by definition slave labor. I am all for protecting children, but protecting them doesn't allways mean taking away the only source of income they and/or their family has. OG rightly points out that in many countries of this world the alternative for a job isn't going to school but something worse than the job.
    Congratulations America

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    But even if they are paid less than the median, if they are paid a wage it's not by definition slave labor. I am all for protecting children, but protecting them doesn't allways mean taking away the only source of income they and/or their family has. OG rightly points out that in many countries of this world the alternative for a job isn't going to school but something worse than the job.
    Where did OG point this out, Hazir?
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  12. #12
    Dial B for Beta X900BTA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post
    I've never seen an example where a child was paid more than the median income for a country, though. Child workers are typically hired because they are either cheaper, or because in some way tiny child fingers are considered preferable for the labor involved (like in the rug industry).
    Almost late for work, but poke around the net and you'll find plenty of examples. of both slightly low, right on median, and slightly higher wages. Central American countries and Thailand were the areas I was researching. The issue really has to be talked about on two fronts. Child slave labor and child labor. The former is a no brainer horrrible thing, while the latter may or may not be horrible depending on the company employeeing them and country they're in.

  13. #13
    I totally dig cheap clothes, shoes and food. Any type of good that can be made cheaper by child labor works for me.

    Thanks Kids!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It's not okay to shoot an innocent bank clerk but shooting a felon to death is commendable and do you should receive a reward rather than a punishment

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by X900BTA View Post
    Almost late for work, but poke around the net and you'll find plenty of examples. of both slightly low, right on median, and slightly higher wages. Central American countries and Thailand were the areas I was researching. The issue really has to be talked about on two fronts. Child slave labor and child labor. The former is a no brainer horrrible thing, while the latter may or may not be horrible depending on the company employeeing them and country they're in.
    Still looking, but this doesn't make it sound too appealing, really.

    (not entirely addressed to BTA)
    I don't think child labor can really qualify as anything but horrible, but at times the alternative can be worse. It's easy to sit back in our comfy chairs and say there's no excuse for it - but it's not like sending a starving child to school is going to accomplish much. Ever noticed how hard it is to concentrate on anything at work or school when you're a bit hungry? Imagine that, many times worse, knowing that there's not going to be a decent meal in an hour or two. A child's wages can possibly be what is keeping the entire family from starvation in some cases. The world is an ugly place for many people.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImAnOgre View Post
    I totally dig cheap clothes, shoes and food. Any type of good that can be made cheaper by child labor works for me.

    Thanks Kids!!!!
    Thanks for your valuable contribution.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ImAnOgre View Post
    I totally dig cheap clothes
    you don't say






    let's face it, the free market isn't solving this problem of giving kids from poor families a good childhood. the free market can keep kids in factories or out of them, but, either way, they stay out of school. if only we could pay kids to go to school...
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post
    Where did OG point this out, Hazir?
    The point where he said that in some cases the alternative is prostitution.
    Congratulations America

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post



    Thanks for your valuable contribution.
    I was trying to get a bigger rise out of you then that, dang it Lolli.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It's hard work making WalMart clothes look this good!! Hard, Hard work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It's not okay to shoot an innocent bank clerk but shooting a felon to death is commendable and do you should receive a reward rather than a punishment

  18. #18
    Dial B for Beta X900BTA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post
    Still looking, but this doesn't make it sound too appealing, really.
    Good place to start

    Here's a fairly good introduction to the topic, and uses Pakistan and Bangladesh as a couple of examples. It's fairly comprehensive and a good place to learn a bit more about the issue. Obviously your mileage may vary depending on the industry/country/specific company you're looking into, but this is all the more reason to not paint child labor with the broad "it's horrible omg" brush. What a world eh?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by X900BTA View Post
    Good place to start

    Here's a fairly good introduction to the topic, and uses Pakistan and Bangladesh as a couple of examples. It's fairly comprehensive and a good place to learn a bit more about the issue. Obviously your mileage may vary depending on the industry/country/specific company you're looking into, but this is all the more reason to not paint child labor with the broad "it's horrible omg" brush. What a world eh?
    I wasn't aware that I was doing so.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  20. #20
    Dial B for Beta X900BTA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post
    I wasn't aware that I was doing so.
    I wasn't directing it at you, but rather "people" generally. Sorry

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