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Thread: German Education system

  1. #1

    Default German Education system

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...Communist.html

    I never understood the idea of censorship whether it be of a single word (n-word in Huk Fin) or historically important years (Nazi Regime). However, as a student with an inquisitive mind, this form of historical sanitation is simply detrimental.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega View Post
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...Communist.html

    I never understood the idea of censorship whether it be of a single word (n-word in Huk Fin) or historically important years (Nazi Regime). However, as a student with an inquisitive mind, this form of historical sanitation is simply detrimental.
    Err, doesn't mention anything about censorship I mean, from the actual article..

    Despite being obliged to visit a concentration camp at least once in their schooldays and learning about Hitler's seizure of power, German students showed a lack of knowledge about their roots.
    So, adding that apparently only 60% knows that they currently live in a democracy, it sounds more like they need better education on political systems, and not like censorship. At all. And Germany isn't exactly known for denying their Nazi past, either.

    Oh, and the wording about the results is a bit vague too (were definite, is mentioned, not 'knew' - different thing), and considering the source, the daily mail, I would take this with a grain of salt anyway.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  3. #3
    That's me being stupid, sorry. I read an article about Mein Kampf and censorship in the old Soviet Block. I just connected the articles I read.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega View Post
    That's me being stupid, sorry. I read an article about Mein Kampf and censorship in the old Soviet Block. I just connected the articles I read.
    I'd like to point out that Mein Kampf is not actually being censored, it's not illegal to own, or buy it - the owner of the copyright just refuses to print new versions or allow copies. Granted, the Bavarian government holds the copyright, but still.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I'd like to point out that Mein Kampf is not actually being censored, it's not illegal to own, or buy it - the owner of the copyright just refuses to print new versions or allow copies. Granted, the Bavarian government holds the copyright, but still.
    Oh wow, I didn't know that. Guess I either misread the article or simply remember it poorly.

    I'm still amazed by the ignorance of the general student body. They almost rival U.S. students.

  6. #6
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Furthermore, I'd like to point out that the laws regarding the ban on stuff like "Denying the holocaust ever happened" were enacted by the Allied government. Yes, that includes the United States of "Free Speech, my ass" America.

    And, just to prevent the stupid "Why don't you revoke it, then?" argument: Do you want to be the politician who'll commit both a political and social suicide and who'll reap quite a backlash from both national and international press?
    Because that won't be seen as a move for free speech. It will be seen as a Nazi-enabler.
    When the stars threw down their spears
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    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  7. #7
    You're blaming laws that are on the books in 2012 on the actions of the US in the 1940s?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #8
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Well, he does have a point that no, politician wants to be the one who gets rid of it.

  9. #9
    If they got rid of it in 1989, I doubt anyone would have blinked. And quite frankly, if the West German governments allowed former Nazis to gain high bureaucratic and political positions, I doubt changing this law would be viewed as that much worse.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #10
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    If they got rid of it in 1989, I doubt anyone would have blinked. And quite frankly, if the West German governments allowed former Nazis to gain high bureaucratic and political positions, I doubt changing this law would be viewed as that much worse.
    Well, I didn't see the Nuremberg trials condemn anyone else but the prominent Nazi party members. And which "former Nazis" are currently in high bureaucratic or political positions?

    It's also funny that on the one hand you're admonishing me for pointing out and using a historical fact as an argument - while on the other hand using a historical event yourself. To emphasize my point in that regard:

    You're blaming laws that are on the books in 2012 on the inactions of Germany in 1989?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
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    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

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    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Currently? Dude, if they were born in 1945 they'd already be retired! But I think there were some pretty high nazis in politics, police, and security services. any experienced person wpuld have served in the nazi regime, so it's not that surprising, I guess. I think France was worse in this respect, though.

  12. #12
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Currently? Dude, if they were born in 1945 they'd already be retired! But I think there were some pretty high nazis in politics, police, and security services. any experienced person wpuld have served in the nazi regime, so it's not that surprising, I guess. I think France was worse in this respect, though.
    That would have been another point I could have made: How many people would have been left if we excluded everyone and anyone connected to the old regime? Not to excuse those guys, but Germany would've been pretty empty if we threw everyone related to Nazi stuff in jail.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  13. #13
    That's a pretty big strawman there. I wasn't referring to excluding lieutenants and minor bureaucrats. You had quite a few mid-level and somewhat high-level Nazis work for the West German government. In fact, the CDU was full of such ex-Nazis...
    Hope is the denial of reality

  14. #14
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    And that's relevant to the present exactly how?

    Please note that you're again using the historical strawman you yourself just admonished me for. Can't have it both ways, y'know?

    Me: "Well, there's that stuff from 1945, by the way..."
    Loki: "You can't use stuff from 1945 to argue about present day issues! But while I think about it, there's another thing from 1945 and from 1989 I'd like to throw at you!"
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  15. #15
    More is better Khen, esp. when it comes to standards
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    And that's relevant to the present exactly how?

    Please note that you're again using the historical strawman you yourself just admonished me for. Can't have it both ways, y'know?

    Me: "Well, there's that stuff from 1945, by the way..."
    Loki: "You can't use stuff from 1945 to argue about present day issues! But while I think about it, there's another thing from 1945 and from 1989 I'd like to throw at you!"
    Your claim was that the same politicians who were ok with allowing mid-ranking Nazis into the government were somehow horrified at the potential international reaction from decriminalizing Nazi symbols...
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    That's a pretty big strawman there. I wasn't referring to excluding lieutenants and minor bureaucrats. You had quite a few mid-level and somewhat high-level Nazis work for the West German government. In fact, the CDU was full of such ex-Nazis...
    A former Nazi put a man on the Moon. This is a feat championed not only by your government but also Hollywood. And the American Nazi party had relatively minute success. So
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    A former Nazi put a man on the Moon.
    Werner Von Braun

    If you were thinking of a different one, let me know...
    . . .

  19. #19
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Your claim was that the same politicians who were ok with allowing mid-ranking Nazis into the government were somehow horrified at the potential international reaction from decriminalizing Nazi symbols...
    Aha. And how many of those mid-ranking Nazis were still working for the government in 1989?

    Or, in case you were actually talking about the years directly after the war: Yeah, that would've gone over well. A country which tries to repair its international relations announces that it's a-ok for everyone in the country to, say, deny the holocaust ever happened.
    Yeah, that wouldn't have damaged relations with Israel or France not at all, no.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    If they got rid of it in 1989, I doubt anyone would have blinked. And quite frankly, if the West German governments allowed former Nazis to gain high bureaucratic and political positions, I doubt changing this law would be viewed as that much worse.
    The U.S. is exponentially worse in this regard. The president wanted Nazi scientist working for the U.S. rather than the USSR. The president said to through the vilest scum in prison for the remainder of their life. However, the best scientist we're also the ones most heinous ones. The secret service made FAKE identities for them in order to them to be recruited.

    Edit:

    President Truman approved Operation Paperclip and this man was instrumental (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Rudolph) to the U.S. Space Program.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega View Post
    The U.S. is exponentially worse in this regard. The president wanted Nazi scientist working for the U.S. rather than the USSR. The president said to through the vilest scum in prison for the remainder of their life. However, the best scientist we're also the ones most heinous ones. The secret service made FAKE identities for them in order to them to be recruited.

    Edit:

    President Truman approved Operation Paperclip and this man was instrumental (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Rudolph) to the U.S. Space Program.
    We used a bunch of Nazi scientists. The Germans had Nazis make up a sizeable portion of their bureaucracy and government...

    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Aha. And how many of those mid-ranking Nazis were still working for the government in 1989?

    Or, in case you were actually talking about the years directly after the war: Yeah, that would've gone over well. A country which tries to repair its international relations announces that it's a-ok for everyone in the country to, say, deny the holocaust ever happened.
    Yeah, that wouldn't have damaged relations with Israel or France not at all, no.
    All the German leadership would have to do is openly condemn anyone who'd make such statements.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    We used a bunch of Nazi scientists. The Germans had Nazis make up a sizeable portion of their bureaucracy and government...
    I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with your country of birth and/or residence. Although you started a thread about a United Kingdom gathering, i'm not entirely familiar with your history. :P

    Are you British or US?

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    We used a bunch of Nazi scientists. The Germans had Nazis make up a sizeable portion of their bureaucracy and government...
    Are you, by chance, familiar with the work of a F. Neumann?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  24. #24
    In before the remarks about A-bombs and vietnam:


    What should have been done with [former] Nazi bureaucrats and politicians etc? Are we asking for discrimination based on previous political affiliation? Are we simply saying that being a former Nazi is a punishable crime in itself? Just to clarify matters
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  25. #25
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    I'd say active involvement with the crimes of the regime.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    In before the remarks about A-bombs and vietnam:


    What should have been done with [former] Nazi bureaucrats and politicians etc? Are we asking for discrimination based on previous political affiliation? Are we simply saying that being a former Nazi is a punishable crime in itself? Just to clarify matters
    The Nazi regime was involved in numerous criminal activities (even according to its own constitution). What exactly is wrong about punishing mid to upper ranking Nazis for their crimes?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The Nazi regime was involved in numerous criminal activities (even according to its own constitution). What exactly is wrong about punishing mid to upper ranking Nazis for their crimes?
    Absolutely nothing wrong with it, provided they're tried and sentenced for their crimes and the law prohibits them from holding positions as politicians as bureaucrats. If you're saying that they should all have been tried and punished in that fashion then I agree.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  28. #28
    What exactly precludes someone from making membership in an organization into a crime?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    What exactly precludes someone from making membership in an organization into a crime?
    Nothing precludes it, but I'm not sure how you could practically go about doing this without either violating a person's right to due process on the one hand or starting up on thought-crimes and the like on the other.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  30. #30
    If the organization has explicitly illegal goals, I fail to see what the problem is. Is there something wrong with making membership in al-Qaeda illegal?
    Hope is the denial of reality

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