Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 135

Thread: New York Times Faux Economics

  1. #1

    Default New York Times Faux Economics

    In the tradition of the Zionuts thread, here is a thread to collect various examples of the NYTimes espousing idiotic/socialistic ideas about how the world of economics and business.

    This past weekend, they wrote a long hopeful-sounding screed which barely tried to hide the fact that it was a lamentation on how wonderful industrial protectionism could be. So they called for a trade war.

    August 4, 2012
    In Pursuit of Nissan, a Jobs Lesson for the Tech Industry?

    By BILL VLASIC, HIROKO TABUCHI and CHARLES DUHIGG

    SMYRNA, Tenn. — The dairy farms that once draped the countryside here were paved over so the Japanese carmaker Nissan could build its first American assembly plant. Eighty miles to the south, another green pasture was replaced by a Nissan engine factory, and across Tennessee about 100 Nissan suppliers dot the landscape, making steel in Murfreesboro, air conditioning units in Lewisburg, transmission parts in Portland.

    Three decades ago, none of this existed. The conventional wisdom at the time was simple: Japanese automakers would not build many cars anywhere but Japan, where supply chains were in place, costs were tightly controlled and the reputation for quality was unparalleled.

    “They were very unfamiliar doing anything outside Japan,” said Senator Lamar Alexander, a Republican who was governor of Tennessee when Nissan opened its factory here in 1983. “They were tentative and awkward even discussing it.”

    Today, echoes of that conventional wisdom can be heard within the American technology industry. For years, high-tech executives have argued that the United States cannot compete in making the most popular electronic devices. Companies like Apple, Dell and Hewlett-Packard, which rely on huge Asian factories, assert that many types of manufacturing would be too costly and inefficient in America. Only overseas, they have said, can they find an abundance of educated midlevel engineers, low-wage workers and at-the-ready suppliers.

    But the migration of Japanese auto manufacturing to the United States over the last 30 years offers a case study in how the unlikeliest of transformations can unfold. Despite the decline of American car companies, the United States today remains one of the top auto manufacturers and employers in the world. Japanese and other foreign companies account for more than 40 percent of cars built in the United States, employing about 95,000 people directly and hundreds of thousands more among parts suppliers.

    The United States gained these jobs through a combination of public and Congressional pressure on Japan, “voluntary” quotas on car exports from Japan and incentives like tax breaks that encouraged Japanese automakers to build factories in America. Pressuring technology companies to move manufacturing here would pose different challenges. For one thing, Apple and many other technology giants are American, not foreign, and so are viewed differently by politicians and the public. But it is possible and the benefits might be worth it, some economists say.

    “The U.S. has a long history of demanding that companies build here if they want to sell here, because it jump-starts industries,” said Clyde V. Prestowitz Jr., a senior trade official in the Reagan administration who helped negotiate with Japan in the 1980s. The government could also encourage domestic production of technologies, including display manufacturing and advanced semiconductor fabrication, that would nurture new industries. “Instead, we let those jobs go to Asia, and then the supply chains follow, and then R&D follows, and soon it makes sense to build everything overseas,” he said. “If Apple or Congress wanted to make the valuable parts of the iPhone in America, it wouldn’t be hard.”

    One country has recently succeeded at forcing technology jobs to relocate. Last year, Brazilian politicians used subsidies and the threat of continued high tariffs on imports to persuade Foxconn — which makes smartphones and computers in Asia for dozens of technology companies — to start producing iPhones, iPads and other devices in a factory north of São Paulo. Today, the new plant has 1,000 workers, and could employ many more. Apple and Foxconn declined to comment about the specifics of their Brazilian manufacturing.

    However, a developing country like Brazil can adopt trade policies that would be difficult for the United States to do. Taking a hard line to reduce imports of technology goods and encourage domestic manufacturing could violate international trade agreements and set off a trade confrontation. “We’re a long way from even talking about limits on imported iPhones or iPads,” said a former high-ranking Obama administration official who did not want to be named because he was not authorized to speak.

    Protectionism is bad policy in today’s globalized world, many economists argue. Countries benefit most when they concentrate on what they do best, and trade barriers harm consumers by driving up prices and undermine a nation’s competitiveness by shielding industries from market forces that spur innovation. The United States needs to create new jobs, economists say, but it should not chase low-paid electronics assembly work that at some point may be replaced by robots. Instead, it should focus on higher-paying jobs.

    “Closing our border is a 20th-century thought, and it will only weaken the economy over the long term,” said Andrew N. Liveris, president of Dow Chemical and co-chairman of the Advanced Manufacturing Partnership, a group of executives and academics convened by the White House who have studied ways to encourage domestic manufacturing.

    The debate is not just economic, however. Increasingly, it is political. With high unemployment, the question of how to create jobs has taken a role in the presidential race between President Obama and Mitt Romney, and both have traded barbs on outsourcing by American companies.

    Although the car and technology industries are different, and the eras are separated by 30 years, the resurgence of American auto manufacturing in the 1980s is an example of how one industry created tens of thousands of good jobs. Since its first pickup truck rolled off the line here on June 16, 1983, Nissan has produced more than seven million vehicles in the United States. It now employs 15,000 people in this country. It makes more than a half-million cars, trucks and S.U.V.’s a year, with the plant in Smyrna building six models, including the soon-to-be-produced, all-electric Nissan Leaf.

    Other foreign carmakers settled in America — Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes-Benz and, most recently, Volkswagen — after a failed attempt decades ago. And some of those factories have become among the best in the world. The Nissan engine plant in Decherd, Tenn., for instance, exports engines to Japan. “We have 14 companies now that produce light vehicles here, and that is enormous,” said Thomas Klier, a senior economist at the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago. “There is no major market in the world that compares to it.”

    Tennessee?

    “Where is Tennessee?”

    It was a blunt question, posed by Takashi Ishihara, president of Nissan, to Mr. Alexander, then the state’s governor.

    Mr. Alexander, who had journeyed to Tokyo in 1979 to pitch Nissan on building a plant in his state, was ready with his answer: “I said, ‘It’s right in the middle.’ ” To help out, he displayed a satellite photograph of the United States at night, showing the bright lights shining on the East and West Coasts and the relative darkness of Tennessee.

    “We were the third-poorest state in the nation back then,” Mr. Alexander said. “President Carter had told all the U.S. governors to go to Japan and persuade the Japanese to make in the U.S. what they sell in the U.S.”

    Mr. Alexander recalled that the Nissan executives were “incredibly anxious” about testing their homegrown production systems abroad. Could the Japanese car companies achieve the same quality using American workers?

    Despite the concerns, pressures were growing for Nissan to break out of its manufacturing cocoon in Japan, including currency fluctuations that made exporting more expensive. The final push came from American anger as imports grabbed one-fourth of the United States market.

    “Japanese automakers had achieved rapid growth by exporting to America,” said Hidetoshi Imazu, a senior manufacturing executive at Nissan in Tokyo who led the development of the plant here in its early years. “But it was clear that model would no longer work.”

    In the fall of 1980, Congress held hearings to limit Japanese imports. With tensions running high, Nissan announced plans for the $300 million assembly plant in Smyrna. That gave the company a head start in circumventing looming restrictions. In May 1981, Japan agreed to limit exports to America to 1.68 million cars annually, a 7 percent reduction from a year earlier. In addition, the United States imposed a 25 percent tax on imported pickup trucks.

    “The pressure put on the Japanese was absolutely critical for them to agree to export restraints,” said Stephen D. Cohen, a professor emeritus of international studies at American University.

    Rural Tennessee may not have seemed a likely place to build a giant automotive factory, but its location was actually a selling point. It was far from Detroit and the United Auto Workers — and the Japanese wanted to work without what they saw as union interference.

    Nissan’s choice of Tennessee was not popular with everyone. On a 20-degree February morning in 1981, trade unionists jeered Mr. Alexander and Nissan executives as they turned the first shovelfuls of dirt for the factory, protesting nonunion construction crews. An airplane circled overhead, urging a boycott of Japanese vehicles.

    Standing nearby was Marvin Runyon, a 37-year veteran of Ford who had been recruited as Nissan’s first American plant manager. In a later interview with The New York Times, Mr. Runyon was asked what his old colleagues in Detroit thought of his new job. “They wish me luck,” he said. “But not too much.”

    Success did not come overnight. Many Japanese were skeptical of their new colleagues. Americans, they had heard, were soft, lazy and incapable of mastering the precision manufacturing that had made Nissan great.

    To train its new American engineers, Nissan flew workers to its Zama factory in eastern Japan. There the Nissan officials, assisted by English-speaking Japanese workers called “communication helpers,” imparted the intricacies of the company’s production techniques to the Americans.

    Beginnings at Nissan

    Early on, Nissan guarded against quality concerns by not relying on parts from American suppliers. Most components were either shipped from Japan or produced by Japanese companies that set up operations nearby. “We felt sourcing parts in the U.S. wouldn’t allow us to make cars in our own way,” said Mr. Imazu, the Nissan manufacturing executive.

    By 1985, Nissan was confident enough about the quality that it added passenger cars to Smyrna’s assembly lines. Gradually, American parts makers were allowed to bid on supply contracts. Even that came amid arm-twisting by Congress, which passed a law in 1992 requiring auto makers to inform consumers of the percentage of parts in United States-made cars that came from North America, Asia or elsewhere.

    Calsonic Kansei of Tokyo opened its first plant in Tennessee in the mid-1980s, and now employs about 2,600 Americans making instrument panels, exhaust systems, and heating and cooling modules for Nissan. “The Japanese suppliers were encouraged to localize production,” said Matt Mulliniks, vice president for sales and marketing at Calsonic Kansei in Tennessee.

    Nissan’s early doubts are reflected in recent debates over whether American workers can compete with overseas laborers. Within the technology industry, workers in Asia are viewed as hungrier and more willing to tolerate harsh work schedules to achieve productivity. The numbingly repetitive jobs of assembling cellphones and tablet computers, executives say, would be scorned here; they worry that many Americans would not make the sacrifices that success demands, and want too much vacation time and predictable work schedules.

    In the auto industry, the belief that American workers could not match Japanese workers has long since faded. “A big part of the reluctance of Japanese automakers to come to the U.S. was the belief that their manufacturing systems could only work with loyal Japanese employees,” said Dr. Cohen, the American University professor. “Everybody was surprised how quickly the systems were adopted here.”

    This year, Nissan held an internal competition to decide where to produce a new Infiniti-brand luxury sport utility vehicle. The plant in Smyrna was vying against one in Japan.

    The surprising winner: Smyrna.

    “All my life I’ve heard about how great luxury brands like Lexus and BMW are,” said Richard Soloman, a 20-year veteran at the Smyrna plant. “Now we will be building a vehicle of that standard right here in Tennessee.”

    The Japanese presence has rippled through the South. But no place has benefited to the extent of Tennessee, which counts more than 60,000 jobs related to automobile and parts production. The state’s jobless rate, which exceeded the national average by a significant margin in 1983 when Nissan opened its plant, is now lower — 8.1 percent in June versus 8.2 percent nationwide.

    Brazil’s Breakthrough

    Earlier this year, when Apple’s chief executive, Tim Cook, took the stage at a technology conference, he was asked if his company — which once made computers in America, but now locates most assembly in China and other countries — would ever build another product in the United States.

    “I hope so,” Mr. Cook replied. “One day.”

    That day came recently for Brazil.

    In Jundia*, an hour’s drive from São Paulo, a strip of asphalt has recently been rechristened Avenida Steve Jobs, or Steve Jobs Avenue. Alongside is a factory where workers make iPhones and iPads. Brazil got these jobs through tactics the United States once used to persuade Nissan and other foreign carmakers to build plants in America: it cajoled Apple and Foxconn with a combination of financial incentives and import penalties.

    Like the United States, Brazil is a big market — the third largest for computers after China and the United States. It has long imposed tariffs on imported technology products to encourage domestic manufacturing. Those fees mean that smartphones and laptops often cost consumers more in Brazil, and that domestic manufacturers can be at a disadvantage if their products require imported parts.

    In April 2011, Brazil’s president, Dilma Rousseff, traveled to Asia with a pitch, much as Mr. Alexander did in 1979. The federal government would give Foxconn tax breaks, subsidized loans and special access through customs and lower tariffs for imported parts if it started assembling Apple products in Brazil, where Foxconn was already producing electronics for Dell, Sony and Hewlett-Packard.

    Foxconn agreed. Within months, new Brazilian engineers were flying to China for training. By year’s end, Foxconn was making iPhones in Jundia*, and it began making iPads there in early 2012, according to Evandro Oliveira Santos, director of the Jundia* Metalworkers Union, whose members work at the plant. Stores now carry Apple products with the inscription “Fabricado no Brasil” — “Made in Brazil.”

    Apple products remain expensive; the latest iPad, for instance, costs about $760 in Brazil, compared with $499 in the United States. But because those devices are made in Brazil and lower tariffs are charged on parts used to assemble them, Foxconn and Apple are pocketing larger shares of the profits, analysts say, offsetting the increased costs of building outside China.

    Foxconn declined to discuss specific customers, but said that the Brazilian government’s incentive programs had influenced its decisions and that the company expected to generate more Brazilian jobs and aid the government’s goal of furthering the country’s technology industries.

    Indeed, Brazil hopes that compelling Foxconn to assemble iPhones and iPads domestically will help set off a technology explosion. Ms. Rousseff has said that Foxconn could invest $12 billion more in Brazil. And as an electronics supply chain develops within the country, as it has in China, the expectation is that other manufacturers will build factories.

    The government also hopes to use consumer electronics as a springboard for more advanced manufacturing. Targeting high-tech parts like computer displays and semiconductors could help Brazil reduce its trade deficit in these products and develop a robust homegrown industry, said Virgilio Almeida, information technology secretary at the Ministry of Science and Technology. “They are deemed high priority in the Brazilian industrial policy and are part of the Greater Brazil Plan,” he said. “Brazil has developed specific policies that grant incentives to foment research, development and industrial production.”

    America’s Gap

    Throughout his term, Mr. Obama has regularly gathered advisers to discuss manufacturing, according to former high-ranking White House officials. As one meeting was breaking up, Mr. Obama casually tapped an aide’s iPhone to raise a point. Since the device is designed domestically, he said, it should be possible to make it in this country as well.

    But it became clear at the meetings that there were differences of opinion over how best to bring manufacturing home, according to people familiar with the discussions who did not want to be named because the sessions were private. Everyone shared the same goal: establishing a level playing field and creating as many jobs in America as possible. But the debate centered, in part, on choosing among different tactics the American government has used in the past: penalties like tariffs against foreign countries that do not play by the rules or incentives like tax breaks to encourage more domestic manufacturing. On one side were officials like Ron Bloom, until earlier this year the president’s senior counselor for manufacturing policy, who favored more aggressive stances to counter policies used by Asian countries. He argued that the United States should fight China’s efforts to keep its currency weak. If China’s currency were stronger, American companies might find it costlier to make their goods in China and could have greater incentive to manufacture more in this country.

    Aligned on the other side at times were two powerful voices: Lawrence H. Summers, the top economic adviser to Mr. Obama until 2010, and Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner. Along with many economists, Mr. Summers argued that an overly aggressive trade stance could hurt manufacturing — by, for instance, pushing up the price of imported steel used by carmakers — and over time, drive companies away.

    Mr. Geithner thought diplomacy was more effective than confrontational tactics like labeling China a currency manipulator. “He told us, ‘It’s going to be a trade war if we go there,’ ” according to a person who attended the meetings. But this person countered that China would respond only to pressure. “What doesn’t work is the quiet stuff,” he said.

    Mr. Summers, in a recent interview, declined to discuss his role at the White House. But speaking more broadly, he said that protectionist measures might incite new domestic manufacturing in the short run, but that it would come at a high price. “People will pay more for the product because it’s produced in a place that can’t make it at the lowest cost,” he said. “It burdens exporters because they pay more for their inputs. And it removes the spur of competition.”

    A spokeswoman for Mr. Geithner said, “A multidimensional approach to tough yet smart engagement with China is the most effective way to level the playing field.” This strategy has had some success in persuading China to increase the value of its currency, she noted.

    One of the president’s economic advisers also said that, despite some differences, Mr. Obama’s team, including Mr. Geithner and Mr. Summers, united to preserve manufacturing jobs in a critical area by bailing out the auto industry in the wake of the financial crisis.

    But the divisions within the White House have often frustrated those who wanted a sharper focus on manufacturing. “The critics would say we didn’t really fight for manufacturing policy,” said another former high-ranking official who took part in many of those meetings and who did not want to be named because the discussions were confidential. “They have a strong point.”

    Now, with unemployment high and a growing debate over outsourcing of jobs, manufacturing is on the political agenda. In March, Gene B. Sperling, director of the White House’s National Economic Council, outlined initiatives — including tax breaks for building factories here, infrastructure investments and going after “unfair trade practices” — to reinvigorate manufacturing. In May, the Commerce Department announced tariffs on Chinese solar panels for selling below fair-market value. The White House has challenged China’s trade practices on tires and rare-earth metals, and has established an “interagency trade enforcement center” to combat unfair trade.

    Washington, however, has generally shied from addressing the protectionist measures of countries like China with countermeasures, as politicians once did against Japan.

    After the Senate passed legislation last year imposing tariffs on nations whose currency is undervalued — a salvo aimed at China — the bill went nowhere in the House of Representatives, and the White House indicated it did not like the proposal.

    However, champions of “in-sourcing” legislation — which takes away benefits from companies moving jobs abroad and provides incentives for those bringing jobs back — said the tenor of the debate was changing. “The public by and large has been betrayed by large American corporations that outsource. I think Congress is catching on to that,” said Senator Sherrod Brown, Democrat of Ohio.

    Still, he does not advocate tariffs or quotas. Senator Debbie Stabenow, Democrat of Michigan, also favors tax breaks, rather than penalties. “I love my iPad,” she said. “And I want it made in America.”

    One reason for the difference today: Unlike in the 1980s, when Japanese auto imports upset many voters, there has been little public outcry over imported cellphones and computers.

    Back then, American workers were losing jobs as imports from Japanese companies cut into sales of the Big Three automakers.

    But consumer electronics are different. Though some jobs have moved to Asia, many were never here to begin with. And the biggest technology importers — like Apple, Hewlett-Packard, Dell and Microsoft — are American companies.

    Today, many consumers do not know or care where their smartphones are made. “Where it was built, what it means for politics, how it affects the economy,” said Raymond Stata, a founder of Analog Devices, one of the largest semiconductor manufacturers, “that’s not something people think about when they buy.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/bu...-industry.html

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    idiotic/socialistic
    welp
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    In the tradition of the Zionuts thread, here is a thread to collect various examples of the NYTimes espousing idiotic/socialistic ideas about how the world of economics and business.

    This past weekend, they wrote a long hopeful-sounding screed which barely tried to hide the fact that it was a lamentation on how wonderful industrial protectionism could be. So they called for a trade war.
    No, they didn't. They specifically said protectionism and trade wars in tech (as used in the 80's for auto) would be harmful, especially if used to chase low-wage assembly line work -- that one day will be done by robots. Did we read the same article?


    But the migration of Japanese auto manufacturing to the United States over the last 30 years offers a case study in how the unlikeliest of transformations can unfold.
    Case Study: comparing the 80's auto industry with today's tech industry, using tax incentives or tariff penalties to attract production/manufacturing, relocating from Asia ("in-sourcing") challenges conventional wisdom about cost and profit margins

    Apple products remain expensive; the latest iPad, for instance, costs about $760 in Brazil, compared with $499 in the United States. But because those devices are made in Brazil and lower tariffs are charged on parts used to assemble them, Foxconn and Apple are pocketing larger shares of the profits, analysts say, offsetting the increased costs of building outside China.

    ...with an honorable mention of currency manipulations/trade deficits that are the new third rail.

  4. #4
    They paid lip service to the idea that trade wars are bad, before making a correlation between auto import quotas ("voluntary" and otherwise) and the establishment of new auto manufacturing plants in the southern US.

  5. #5
    Does Dread have more ranting subjects/threads than kat was allowed?
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    They paid lip service to the idea that trade wars are bad, before making a correlation between auto import quotas ("voluntary" and otherwise) and the establishment of new auto manufacturing plants in the southern US.
    Uhm, "they" quoted sources from the auto industry, previous administrations, and trade officials. "They" quoted sources from the tech industry, current administration, and Brazilians. "They" presented a decent enough article (and Case Study) to let the reader compare and contrast, and make their own conclusions.

    Really, I'm not seeing the journalistic bias from the NYT that you apparently did. And I'm not sure if this thread is supposed to be about the NYT specifically, or news/journalism bias in general.

  7. #7
    They quoted people who agreed with the hypothesis of the article. It's a terrible case study because they failed to take into account the labor laws, tax laws, environmental laws and other regulatory issues at hand. It's a terrible case study because they failed to look at how the management of the Asian/European transplants may be better than their corporate welfare-sucking American rivals who spent the 1980s designing low-quality cars.

    It's a one-dimensional portrait designed to support protectionism as a means to an end. You probably don't see a bias in it because you almost-certainly agree with the premis of the article.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    ....corporate welfare-sucking American rivals who spent the 1980s designing low-quality cars.
    You probably don't see a bias in it...

  9. #9

  10. #10
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/14/us...donors.html?hp

    I love how quickly the NY Times writes hit pieces on any Republican that hits the spotlight.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  11. #11
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,435
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/14/us...donors.html?hp

    I love how quickly the NY Times writes hit pieces on any Republican that hits the spotlight.
    To be fair, if a politician enters the spotlight they deserve scrutiny, of course. Especially presidential + VP candidates.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  12. #12
    Unless they're Democrats, in which case they don't. They've done the same with Republican Christie, while mostly staying silent about the misbehavior of Democratic governors of New York.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #13
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,435
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Unless they're Democrats, in which case they don't. They've done the same with Republican Christie, while mostly staying silent about the misbehavior of Democratic governors of New York.
    If you say so (I don't read the NY times myself), sure, that's bad.

    Though on the other hand, free market, capitalism, etc., this probably is what sells. Who cares about fair & unbalanced news?
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Yes?
    Yes, your bias was showing. Is this thread just about the NYT 'leaning left'....or that it's a paper offering counter-balance to the WSJ 'leaning right'...and both happen to be based in NYC?


  15. #15
    Is this also the place for "Forbes faux economics"?

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickunga...-barack-obama/
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  16. #16
    We had a thread about this before. The reason Obama didn't "increase" spending very much was because there was a temporary trillion dollar increase in spending the year before he was elected. I don't know about you, but my definition of temporary includes the concept of expiration.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Is this also the place for "Forbes faux economics"?

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickunga...-barack-obama/

    This argument is one I can't wrap my mind around. The concept seems simple enough: If I have a yearly income of $100,000.00, and I get a one time ten thousand dollar bonus last year, does it make sense to complain that my raise the next year was smaller as a percentage of my gross income? By that same token, why does it make sense for people to boast that Obama is a spendthrift because he continued spending at the inflated budget levels post stimulus?

    Is this really that hard of a concept to grasp?

  18. #18
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,435
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    This argument is one I can't wrap my mind around. The concept seems simple enough: If I have a yearly income of $100,000.00, and I get a one time ten thousand dollar bonus last year, does it make sense to complain that my raise the next year was smaller as a percentage of my gross income? By that same token, why does it make sense for people to boast that Obama is a spendthrift because he continued spending at the inflated budget levels post stimulus?

    Is this really that hard of a concept to grasp?
    Not even to me Of course I don't know how easily those one year things could be rolled back, and how much is to blame on the president and how much on congress (I remember when I criticized Bush in the past, everything was Congress' fault and not his )
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Is this also the place for "Forbes faux economics"?

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickunga...-barack-obama/
    That was just a repost of a really crummy MarketWatch article that's been roundly dismantled in the press. It is a garbage analysis.

    Plus, I really am focused on the NYTimes and their 10th grade emo socialist sense of economics and monetary policy. A gem from today, which contains the all-too-typical hallmarks of an Upper West Side left-wing rant-

    + Anecdote about a medical problem in Western Europe and how it was soooo pleasing to accept free care from government bureaucrats who don't care about wasting government money or even collecting info on a guy who pays no taxes.

    + Glosses over the growing unemployment in Italy

    + Completely ignores the debt crisis in Italy or other parts of Europe, partially fueled by the welfare being praised.

    + Presents the US having a lower government-to-GDP ratio as a bad thing.

    + Says that a national sales tax can "raise a lot of money without distorting people’s economic incentives."

    + Blithely states that the US is "falling behind" the rest of the world by not raising taxes, IE that only by growing government can the US "catch up". In other words-
    1) Raise taxes
    2) ???
    3) Profit!

    This is what happens when the NYTimes gives physics majors who used to work on the opinion page a column in the non-opinion section.

    August 14, 2012
    America’s Aversion to Taxes
    By EDUARDO PORTER
    There is something to be said for universal health care systems.

    When my son developed a rash on an Italian vacation in Liguria last month, the pharmacist showed me to the doctor downstairs, who diagnosed the problem at no charge and sent me off with a handshake and a joke about a daughter in med school at the University of California, San Diego.

    Italy may be in a funk, with a shrinking economy and a high unemployment rate, but the United States can learn a lot from it, and not just about the benefits of public health care. Italians live longer. Their poverty rate is much lower than ours. If they lose their jobs or suffer some other misfortune, they can turn to a more generous social safety net.

    Every developed country aspires to provide a better life for its people. The United States, among the richest of all, fails in important ways. It has the highest poverty and the highest infant mortality among developed nations. We provide among the least generous unemployment benefits in the industrial world. Not long ago one of the most educated countries in the world, the United States is slipping behind.

    The reason is not difficult to figure out: rich though we are, we can’t afford the policies needed to improve our record. The politicians in Washington all know that we face a long-term fiscal crisis. By 2020, 70 million Americans are expected to be on Social Security, up from 45 million in 2000. The ranks on Medicare will swell to 64 million, up from 40 million in 2000. Virtually every economist knows that just maintaining Medicare and Medicaid benefits will require raising taxes on the middle class.

    But though the nation’s fiscal challenge has taken center stage in the presidential election campaign, raising more taxes from American families remains stubbornly off the table.

    President Obama is willing to accept higher taxes on families earning over $250,000 a year. But he is going nowhere near higher taxes on the middle class. And Mitt Romney and his vice-presidential pick, Paul Ryan, are moving decidedly in the opposite direction. Not only do they want to extend indefinitely the tax cuts passed by President George W. Bush, but they are also calling for a piñata of additional ones, and would cut social spending in return.

    Citizens of most industrial countries have demanded more public services as they have become richer. And they have been by and large willing to pay more taxes to finance them. Since 1965, tax revenue raised by governments in the developed world have risen to 34 percent of their gross domestic product from 25 percent, on average.

    The big exception has been the United States. In 1965, taxes collected by federal, state and municipal governments amounted to 24.7 percent of the nation’s output. In 2010, they amounted to 24.8 percent. Excluding Chile and Mexico, the United States raises less tax revenue, as a share of the economy, than every other industrial country.

    No wonder we can’t afford to keep more children alive. In 2007, the most recent year for which figures are available, the United States government spent about 16 percent of its output on social programs — things like public health, food and housing for the poor. In Italy, that figure was 25 percent.

    American policy makers justify our choice for low taxes with the claim that they foster economic growth. But the evidence is, at best, mixed. Since 1980, income per person has grown roughly the same across developed nations, about 300 percent, according to the International Monetary Fund. It has grown a little faster in the United States than in the European Union and Canada, but slower than in higher tax countries like Japan, Norway and Sweden.

    To a large extent, this is because we have chosen a tax system that raises relatively little revenue and inflicts maximum economic harm. Every other industrial country has a national consumption tax, which can be used to raise a lot of money without distorting people’s economic incentives. The United States, by contrast, relies mostly on taxes on labor and capital that damp people’s drive to work and invest, putting a drag on economic growth. And the tax code is riddled with preferences and loopholes that further distort people’s economic behavior.

    It is tempting to blame the administration of George W. Bush for the tax shortfall. At the end of the administration of President Bill Clinton, tax revenue reached almost 30 percent of the nation’s economic output. The federal government ran a budget surplus. The Bush tax cuts sharply reduced the federal tax collection. Then the Great Recession further eroded tax revenue. And, of course, nobody wants to raise taxes in the middle of an economic downturn.

    Yet Americans’ aversion to taxes runs deeper. We’ve been collecting less in taxes than other rich countries at least since the early 1970s, relative to size of the economy. But according to Gallup, only three times since the 1950s have more Americans said their taxes were “about right” than said they were “too high.” Scholars have resorted to cultural traits to explain our reluctance to pay for our government.

    Alberto Alesina, an Italian-born economist at Harvard, contrasts American individualism rooted in the belief that effort brings success with Europeans’ belief in state redistribution — born of Europe’s long history of inherited wealth. Americans who think they have a fair shot at striking it rich vote against high taxes on their expected future wealth. Europeans who believe wealth is mostly a matter of luck and connections are less resistant to paying taxes for collective welfare.

    Support for taxes also depends on how the money is spent. In Italy and throughout Western Europe, every time a voter goes to the doctor, he or she sees taxes at work.

    By contrast, the ethnic, linguistic and cultural diversity of the United States can sap support for government redistribution. Ten years ago, the sociologist William Julius Wilson wrote that American whites rebelled against welfare because they saw it as using their hard-earned taxes to give blacks “medical and legal services that many of them could not afford for their own families.” In more homogeneous European countries, taxpayers may be more willing to pay for social programs because recipients are similar to themselves.

    Where does this leave American society? Many conservatives in the Tea Party movement believe the government is already too big. Mr. Romney and most Republicans in Congress have even signed a formal pledge not to raise income taxes. Will no administration ever again dare raise taxes on the middle class?

    It may not be impossible for the American political system to accept the case for a bigger government, with higher taxes and better public services. Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush and Mr. Clinton passed tax increases to address budget deficits.

    Bruce Bartlett, a tax expert who worked in the administrations of Mr. Reagan and the elder Mr. Bush, says he believes that the deteriorating budget outlook will ultimately persuade the political class. “We need a few more years in which conservatives try to deal with the problem solely through spending,” he said. “We need to travel down this road a few more years and then people will recognize it is futile.”

    There are tentative signs that Americans may become more willing to give money to Uncle Sam. Two of the three times that more Americans said their taxes were “about right” than “too high” have occurred since 2009. And the economic crisis might even increase support for government action.

    The economists Paola Giuliano of the University of California, Los Angeles, and Antonio Spilimbergo of the International Monetary Fund found that Americans who experienced economic shocks tended to become more supportive of government redistribution, especially when the shock came in their late teens or early 20s.

    When elections are decided by today’s 18- to 25-year-olds, perhaps the American debate over taxes will come to resemble that in the rest of the world.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/15/bu...-to-taxes.html
    Last edited by Dreadnaught; 08-16-2012 at 02:24 AM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Not even to me Of course I don't know how easily those one year things could be rolled back, and how much is to blame on the president and how much on congress (I remember when I criticized Bush in the past, everything was Congress' fault and not his )
    Well, Democrats held both houses of the legislative, as well as the executive branches from 2008-2010. If there was the will there would have been a way.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    That was just a repost of a really crummy MarketWatch article that's been roundly dismantled in the press. It is a garbage analysis.
    So WSJ Digital Network is slipping, eh? You can disagree with an analysis (without calling it garbage)....but the data came from CBO and OMB.

    Plus, I really am focused on the NYTimes and their 10th grade emo socialist sense of economics and monetary policy. A gem from today, which contains the all-too-typical hallmarks of an Upper West Side left-wing rant-

    This is what happens when the NYTimes gives physics majors who used to work on the opinion page a column in the non-opinion section.
    Yes, your focus on NYT is obvious. Why do you keep reading it, if it bothers you so much?

    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Well, Democrats held both houses of the legislative, as well as the executive branches from 2008-2010. If there was the will there would have been a way.
    Whoa, wait a minute. After all your posts about how ineffective and inefficient government is....you expected sheer will of Democrats could find a way to fix deep debt and deficit....in two years? Obama wasn't inaugurated until Jan. '09, so you mean even less than two years?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    So WSJ Digital Network is slipping, eh? You can disagree with an analysis (without calling it garbage)....but the data came from CBO and OMB.
    Of course I can call it garbage, because it's garbage. Downloading an Excel file from the CBO doesn't make that analysis any less garbage. A blogger almost no one read before this found some numbers, then systematically ignored the numbers he didn't like, then posted them.

    Garbage in, garbage out.

    On the subject of the NY Times, do you not find it questionable that an "business" column in a major national newspaper would spend paragraphs extolling the Italian welfare state model, at the very moment that the Italian welfare state is desperate for cash and being charged extremely high borrowing costs?

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Whoa, wait a minute. After all your posts about how ineffective and inefficient government is....you expected sheer will of Democrats could find a way to fix deep debt and deficit....in two years? Obama wasn't inaugurated until Jan. '09, so you mean even less than two years?
    I thought I was being very clear in implying that I didn't think there was a will, by either of the parties to do anything outside the status quo when it came to deficit reduction/spending. Could Obama have made it the signature piece of legislation for his presidency instead of pushing for ObamaCare? It's theoretically possible, but we both know that doing so would be acting against the interests of the Democrats, i.e. it would be against their will. Which isn't to say the Republicans haven't been paying fiscal responsibility anything other than lip service for years.

    But yes, I absolutely believe if there was a will that our government could stop spending money it doesn't have, and taking a loan out on our children's future. And yes, I think it could make a big splash in less than two years.

  24. #24
    What are you talking about? Rex Nutting isn't an unknown blogger, and his article was posted under Commentary.

    The article at NYT wasn't written to "extol the Italian welfare state model", that's what you gleaned from it. Reader bias?

    What I read (with my reader bias) asked why Americans are tax-averse, when a certain amount of taxation aspires to provide a better life for its people, and the US lags behind every developed nation in the important things; infant mortality, poverty, education, healthcare. (Not mentioned, but we top the list for incarcerations, military, and spending more per capita on health and education--with crappier results).

    And this "Alberto Alesina, an Italian-born economist at Harvard, contrasts American individualism rooted in the belief that effort brings success with Europeans’ belief in state redistribution — born of Europe’s long history of inherited wealth. Americans who think they have a fair shot at striking it rich vote against high taxes on their expected future wealth. Europeans who believe wealth is mostly a matter of luck and connections are less resistant to paying taxes for collective welfare."

    That was interesting, from a cultural and behavioral angle. I can see how centuries of inherited wealth, mostly from Kingdoms and bloodlines that used taxes to fund royalty, led to more open attitudes toward modern taxation. Since they see the benefits daily, there's a tangible connection between taxes paid and services gained.

    Americans DO have peculiar ways of looking at taxes and public services. A majority polled don't count their Medicare or SS as "government services", perhaps because they viewed payroll deductions as "paying" for them, directly out-of-pocket, and not as a "tax"? People also love to complain about bad roads and crumbling bridges...but refuse to pay higher gas taxes that fund maintenance and repair, let alone taxes for large modern future projects.

    We also have a new distaste, often bordering on hatred, for the "public worker". Some people *cough* lay blame on unions, who were able to get great contracts for wages and benefits that far out-paced private wages and benefits, and became unsustainable in a changing world. Truth is, there's enough blame to go around, including short-sighted city managers and lobby-bought legislators. Theirs is an aversion to taxing because they'd rather be elected, and no one elects those who promise to raise taxes, even when it's the right thing to do. And so it goes....

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I thought I was being very clear in implying that I didn't think there was a will, by either of the parties to do anything outside the status quo when it came to deficit reduction/spending. Could Obama have made it the signature piece of legislation for his presidency instead of pushing for ObamaCare? It's theoretically possible, but we both know that doing so would be acting against the interests of the Democrats, i.e. it would be against their will. Which isn't to say the Republicans haven't been paying fiscal responsibility anything other than lip service for years.

    But yes, I absolutely believe if there was a will that our government could stop spending money it doesn't have, and taking a loan out on our children's future. And yes, I think it could make a big splash in less than two years.
    We're not going to balance the budget, or carve away at the deficit, by spending cuts alone. Revenue has to be part of the equation, that's the inconvenient truth. It's faux economics to think we can cut our way out, OR tax our way out --- OR that less taxation will grow our way out. Severe and rapid austerity can lead to a deflationary cycle that's tough to turn around, while imposing a lot of real pain on real people, which leads to social unrest and another set of problems.

    We could demand a couple of things that might work fairly quickly....like freezing congressional paychecks, and/or rescinding their publicly paid health and retirement benefits. Let them buy their own healthcare and save for their own retirement, without relying on the public dole. I also think a separate War Tax could make a big splash pretty quickly. It would go toward paying off the two unfunded Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and any veteran medical care incurred during that time. Congress wouldn't be allowed to fudge on definitions of War, non-declarations of War, or other nonsense. Military conflicts, military interventions, deployment of troops...with an automatic dedicated Tax. For those who prefer state control of the details, they can come up with their own scheme, but every state would raise the same revenue per capita.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    And this "Alberto Alesina, an Italian-born economist at Harvard, contrasts American individualism rooted in the belief that effort brings success with Europeans’ belief in state redistribution — born of Europe’s long history of inherited wealth. Americans who think they have a fair shot at striking it rich vote against high taxes on their expected future wealth. Europeans who believe wealth is mostly a matter of luck and connections are less resistant to paying taxes for collective welfare."

    That was interesting, from a cultural and behavioral angle. I can see how centuries of inherited wealth, mostly from Kingdoms and bloodlines that used taxes to fund royalty, led to more open attitudes toward modern taxation. Since they see the benefits daily, there's a tangible connection between taxes paid and services gained.
    I see something different: "Europeans who believe wealth is mostly a matter of luck and connections" can only conclude that is actually the case in countries where government spending is 40 - 60% of GDP. With government so large, people see government connections and civil service as the only true means to security and personal prosperity. They are willing to part with large chunks of their income because they expect to weevil their way into a slice of that government pie.

    Most American's aren't anti-government or unaware of what government does. But most Americans are aware that some people want government to be doing much more than building roads, minting currency and enforcing laws.

  27. #27
    Credit is due where credit is due. This article started as a predictable NY Times derpfest about how "the machines are displacing the proletariat that I, New York Times reporter, pities but would never talk to unless I had to for this story!".

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/bu...-industry.html

    But it stuck to a pretty dry examination of how robotics are advancing, with some dry remarks about how they have enhanced productivity and how they put some manufacturing jobs at risk. It was almost refreshingly straightforward, well done New York Times.

    Of course, the Times now has a simply awful comments section, which is now full of the predictable moaning.

  28. #28
    So what's your complaint? Is it that the NYT espouses Faux Economics, writes with a notable "leftist" agenda (even though readers can obviously disagree), but has some "refreshingly straightforward" pieces....or that their comment section is awful?


  29. #29

  30. #30
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/09/re...-new-york.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ref=realestate

    The story and the comments are great. The progressive NY Times, pandering to the trust fund kiddies and their parents.
    Hope is the denial of reality

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •