A question for Christians

[RandBlade]

The idea that God could only forgive our sins by having his son tortured to death as a scapegoat is surely, from an objective point of view, a deeply unpleasant idea. If God wanted to forgive us our sins, why didn't he just forgive them? Why did he have to have his son tortured?

Any answer to this question?

[Lewkowski]

Any answer to this question?

I've always figured its to show an example of love and forgiveness for us to emulate. Of course God's ways are "past finding out" so outside of the bible its guesswork.

[Lebanese Dragon]

I'm not a big fan of Richard Dawkins, whenever I hear him speak, you can tell he's a scientist but he's a poor philosopher. Philosophy requires imagination and good reasoning skills. On the question:

The idea that God could only forgive our sins by having his son tortured to death as a scapegoat is surely, from an objective point of view, a deeply unpleasant idea. If God wanted to forgive us our sins, why didn't he just forgive them? Why did he have to have his son tortured?

The reason this was needed is because our sins are forgiven by accepting Christ. The sacrifice makes Jesus be the complete example of how to live your life for God, thus making it when you accept Jesus your sins are forgiven. That's the connection between his death and how that makes us free from sin.

It also was done for other reasons as well. It fullfills old testemant prophecy (the sacrificing of the perfect unbroken lamb"), hence Jesus is referred to as lamb of God, and his legs were not broken as was custormary for those who lived to long while being crucified.

Lastly, it demonstrates to all sinners and non-sinners when you stand before God on judgement day that it is possible as a human to live your life for God, and Jesus is the example to show that. There is no excuse that's it's impossible for man to do it, because it is possible.

[LittleFuzzy]

Well, theologically Christ is considered an aspect of God, yes? So Son of God and all that but also God himself. So the sacrifice is self-sacrifice right? And forgiveness can be interpreted as an act of self-sacrifice right? Giving up the transgression made against you, the hurt it caused, the desire for redress, etc? So the whole thing can be looked at as one giant recursive metaphor.

[Aimless]

Any answer to this question?

It doesn't seem to be the right question.

[RandBlade]

I've always figured its to show an example of love and forgiveness for us to emulate. Of course God's ways are "past finding out" so outside of the bible its guesswork.

So we should emulate by torturing our children as a scapegoat for the wrongdoing of others?

I'm not a big fan of Richard Dawkins, whenever I hear him speak, you can tell he's a scientist but he's a poor philosopher. Philosophy requires imagination and good reasoning skills. On the question:

The reason this was needed is because our sins are forgiven by accepting Christ. The sacrifice makes Jesus be the complete example of how to live your life for God, thus making it when you accept Jesus your sins are forgiven. That's the connection between his death and how that makes us free from sin.

It also was done for other reasons as well. It fullfills old testemant prophecy (the sacrificing of the perfect unbroken lamb"), hence Jesus is referred to as lamb of God, and his legs were not broken as was custormary for those who lived to long while being crucified.

Lastly, it demonstrates to all sinners and non-sinners when you stand before God on judgement day that it is possible as a human to live your life for God, and Jesus is the example to show that. There is no excuse that's it's impossible for man to do it, because it is possible.

Again why should such a sacrifice be necessary? If God is all-powerful he could just forgive if he wanted to? There aren't any restrictions on God that mean he needed someone to be tortured in order to do so are there?

It also doesn't explain why an all-powerful, all-knowing God would decide to only forgive those who believe in his tortured son, rather than those who try and live a good life regardless of their beliefs.

Well, theologically Christ is considered an aspect of God, yes? So Son of God and all that but also God himself. So the sacrifice is self-sacrifice right? And forgiveness can be interpreted as an act of self-sacrifice right? Giving up the transgression made against you, the hurt it caused, the desire for redress, etc? So the whole thing can be looked at as one giant recursive metaphor.

If its a metaphor and not real I suppose, doesn't exactly help those who say it is

[Steely Glint]

If God is all-powerful he could just forgive if he wanted to?

Why is forgiveness necessary? What makes something sinful and something else not sinful? Why does God care about sin? Why is sin? Why does such a mighty being desire worship and adoration from ants? How can the vanity that implies be described as perfection? Why did a flawless being created such a flawed (in his own eyes, mind you) species as mankind? Why did he then act surprised when they turned out to be flawed? Why is everything in the bible so provincial when God created such a vast, vast universe? Why did God create anything at all?

None of it makes any sense whatsoever from an objective point of view. You start asking questions like that you'll never stop, because the answers you'll get just lead to more 'why' questions and in the end it just comes down to 'a wizard did it'.

[Loki]

Pretty sure most theology involves answers by obfuscation. Any clear-cut answer might have the potential of the entire religion being discredited, while obfuscation allows them to create more and more layers of complexity, making it impossible for most people to even understand what the religion stands for, let alone a method for falsifying it.

[Lebanese Dragon]

Why is forgiveness necessary?

Forgiveness is neccessary because mankind is inherantly sinful, (i.e. because we have our own will) it is not automatically aligned with God's will.

What makes something sinful and something else not sinful?

Is it neutral, opposed, or in accordance with God's will.

Why does God care about sin?

God's perfect and it's the morally right thing to do to encourage others not to sin.

Why is sin?

As God exist so does God's will, and inherantly with it the moral laws of the universe. God's will (his values/choices) is the definition of what's moral, and it is how morality exists.

Why does such a mighty being desire worship and adoration from ants?

H
God simply wants us to live moral lives and when you live a moral life, you're following his message, and this is how you respect God, and show your adoration for him.

how can the vanity that implies be described as perfection?

because he doesn't seek adoration for it's own sake, it's a by-product of wishing us to live honest lives.

Why did a flawless being created such a flawed (in his own eyes, mind you) species as mankind?

Because he made us concious beings that could choose for ourselves. This is where all man's perfection and imperfection comes from, choice.

Why did he then act surprised when they turned out to be flawed?

I'm sure an all knowing being couldn't be surprised.

Why is everything in the bible so provincial when God created such a vast, vast universe?

The bible was written about situations that pertain to us.

Why did God create anything at all?

This is beyond our scope, no body knows why anything exists at all. From all human reasoning can tell... There should be no matter, no time, no space, there should be true nothingness, not the nothingness of empty space but the nothingness of spacelessness.

None of it makes any sense whatsoever from an objective point of view. You start asking questions like that you'll never stop, because the answers you'll get just lead to more 'why' questions and in the end it just comes down to 'a wizard did it'.

There is no answer to this question. Some physicist will say it's a silly question of (why is there something instead of nothing). This is a scary question and it defies humanity's grasp on it. This is a question I think all species for all time will simply accept.

[Nessus]

Well, theologically Christ is considered an aspect of God, yes? So Son of God and all that but also God himself. So the sacrifice is self-sacrifice right? And forgiveness can be interpreted as an act of self-sacrifice right? Giving up the transgression made against you, the hurt it caused, the desire for redress, etc? So the whole thing can be looked at as one giant recursive metaphor.

Where does that leave Judas?

[Lewkowski]

So we should emulate by torturing our children as a scapegoat for the wrongdoing of others?

Clearly.

[Aimless]

So we should emulate by torturing our children as a scapegoat for the wrongdoing of others?

Or possibly that we should forgive even those who torture our children, a position that Lewk has always held.

[LittleFuzzy]

Where does that leave Judas?

You tell me. I'm not really sure what you're asking.

[Nessus]

You tell me. I'm not really sure what you're asking.

Surely you've heard of the various heresies that had alternative answers to the seeming 'moral' dilemma that if God needed to forgive himself, and foresaw/created Judas's part in the whole self-mutilation deal?

[Steely Glint]

Or possibly that we should forgive even those who torture our children, a position that Lewk has always held.

That forgiveness is not yours to give, and nor it's it God's or any other metaphysical entity.

[LittleFuzzy]

Surely you've heard of the various heresies that had alternative answers to the seeming 'moral' dilemma that if God needed to forgive himself, and foresaw/created Judas's part in the whole self-mutilation deal?

Not sure. My background is Calvinist and while they're pretty set on predestination theologically I never bought into it. No questions/issues relating to Judas that might be relevant to Rand's question are springing to mind.

[Nessus]

Not sure. My background is Calvinist and while they're pretty set on predestination theologically I never bought into it. No questions/issues relating to Judas that might be relevant to Rand's question are springing to mind.

Why did God's self-mutilation/sacrifice require the eternal torture of Judas, one of God's creations? Did Jesus' foreknowledge of Judas' betrayal imply Judas was created to betray Jesus? Could Jesus have given the idea of this betrayal to Judas?

Also, Calvinist, wow

[GGT]

Not sure why the question is aimed at Christians in particular. Forgiveness doesn't have to be framed as a religious idea, or anything to do with God or a holy text.

It's a difficult human proposition....to forgive others, or forgive one's self for that matter. Forgiving, with no strings attached and no expectations, is something that benefits the forgiver just as much. It means resentment and bitterness no longer has a place to hide, or grow into anger, violence or vengeance, or other emotions that are toxic to humans.

The biblical metaphor of the crucifixion is an example of man's inner struggles with himself, others and the world, seeking or giving forgiveness...especially when that seems impossible, unwarranted, or paradoxical....and the concept of grace. At least that's one way to interpret it, as part of a very powerful force that's within humans' grasp and ability and choice.

[Lebanese Dragon]

Again why should such a sacrifice be necessary? If God is all-powerful he could just forgive if he wanted to?.

I don't see how? If I sinned, even if God "forgives me" it requires my repentance to not be a sinner. Sin is really the state of your soul with respect to the moral law. If you murdered a 100 people, and do not regret it, would not change it, and are still that same person, then it doesn't matter what God does you're still a sinner. It's essential to repent, and that's what accepting Christ is. In order for accepting Christ to be synonmous with repentance Christ led a life that was free from sin, so when you accept that lifestyle/accept Christ then you are free some sin. It's both Christ action (living a perfect life, including sacrificing himself for his beliefs) and accepting Christ, these two together are what cleanse you of sin. If one was not there, then you would not be free from Sin. If Jesus did not live a perfect life, or if you don't accept Jesus it wouldn't work. You need both. Jesus being God's son was only one who could do it perfectly, to show us the way. That's why it was Jesus (it wasn't moses, it wasn't paul, it was Jesus), that's why he lived the way he did.

It also doesn't explain why an all-powerful, all-knowing God would decide to only forgive those who believe in his tortured son, rather than those who try and live a good life regardless of their beliefs.

These are synonmous. Those who live good lives are naturally drawn to the message of Christ. Believing in Christ, doesn't mean believing in Christ's existence or believing he's the Son of God. It means believing in who he was as a person, his message. If you do that the rest will come.

[LittleFuzzy]

Why did God's self-mutilation/sacrifice require the eternal torture of Judas, one of God's creations? Did Jesus' foreknowledge of Judas' betrayal imply Judas was created to betray Jesus? Could Jesus have given the idea of this betrayal to Judas?

Also, Calvinist, wow

Eternal torture of Judas? I don't think Dante is actually the best source for Christian salvation theology. The *many* stories of Judas' betrayal and its personal consequences has always reeked of early Church politicking to me.

[Nessus]

Eternal torture of Judas? I don't think Dante is actually the best source for Christian salvation theology. The *many* stories of Judas' betrayal and its personal consequences has always reeked of early Church politicking to me.

It's not my fault the fan-fics are better than the originals But even so, Judas possibly managed a fairly showy suicide, and are you saying he didn't go to Hell? Do you believe there is a Hell in the first place? God, religious conversation are such mine-fields

[LittleFuzzy]

It's not my fault the fan-fics are better than the originals But even so, Judas possibly managed a fairly showy suicide, and are you saying he didn't go to Hell? Do you believe there is a Hell in the first place? God, religious conversation are such mine-fields

My belief? If there is a hell it's one that's not populated by human souls. Salvation only makes sense to me if it's for everyone. All the divisions and rules *specific sins like suicide being an express ticket downstairs, only being eligible if you've publicly affirmed that Christ is your personal savior or if you've been baptized as a consenting adult, etc* look like politics and sociology to me, not anything that has business being mixed with faith. Those are about exerting control over people, exercising power here on Earth, not about some afterlife. But by my way of thinking if I was going to apply some of those rules then Judas would still not be in hell. He may have betrayed Jesus but he still believed in him, earlier in their travels and certainly after the resurrection. And I just can't see salvation being denied him because of the guilt or despair he felt for the betrayal. It would make more sense to deny him if he hadn't felt such remorse. He may have wanted to deny it to himself but it makes no sense to me for that sort of wish to be respected, under the circumstances.

[Nessus]

You live in a far nicer universe than I do

That aside, how, uh, theologically popular is that view-point? As in, does any of the major branches of Christianity support this? Obviously I'm not going to suggest you're wrong if the Pope says you're wrong or whatever, given my non-faith, but I'm curious.

[Loki]

I don't quite get the belief in heaven or hell. One can interpret some elements of existence as evidence of a god. One can perhaps make some logical arguments that a god's existence is feasible. But there's absolutely no reason to believe that heaven exists, nor any way at all to find supporting evidence. I realize that the standard and type of evidence in theology is different, but we're talking about no chance of any evidence at all.

[LittleFuzzy]

You live in a far nicer universe than I do

I think we both already knew this

That aside, how, uh, theologically popular is that view-point? As in, does any of the major branches of Christianity support this? Obviously I'm not going to suggest you're wrong if the Pope says you're wrong or whatever, given my non-faith, but I'm curious.

Which viewpoint, the one that Judas Iscariot meets the rules for getting into heaven or that salvation really does go for everyone?

[Nessus]

I think we both already knew this

Which viewpoint, the one that Judas Iscariot meets the rules for getting into heaven or that salvation really does go for everyone?

Can I get two for the price of one?

[LittleFuzzy]

Can I get two for the price of one?

Well I really have no idea wrt Judas. There seems to be incredible division and scholastic disagreement on just what he did, why he did it, and what the consequences of it were. It seems like the primary purpose of that story is as a case-study example to illustrate some other theological point, like predestination. For the other, I imagine the only sect which would support my view would probably be the Unitarians But while I won't claim to know the minds of Catholics or Baptists, many in the rank and file of the other mainstream Protestant sects these days don't find much to argue with in my conception of universal salvation, whatever the "official" theology of their church is. Theologians might be interested in squaring the circle, but most people take a few simple themes and just reason the rest of it out from those. And the most dominant theme in the mainstream Prot churches these days is the "God is love" line from 1st John.

[Nessus]

Well I really have no idea wrt Judas. There seems to be incredible division and scholastic disagreement on just what he did, why he did it, and what the consequences of it were. It seems like the primary purpose of that story is as a case-study example to illustrate some other theological point, like predestination. For the other, I imagine the only sect which would support my view would probably be the Unitarians But while I won't claim to know the minds of Catholics or Baptists, many in the rank and file of the other mainstream Protestant sects these days don't find much to argue with in my conception of universal salvation, whatever the "official" theology of their church is. Theologians might be interested in squaring the circle, but most people take a few simple themes and just reason the rest of it out from those. And the most dominant theme in the mainstream Prot churches these days is the "God is love" line from 1st John.

Right, this was my guess, but you're more in tune with what's going on in the trenches (as it were).

This is personal and I don't mind if you don't want to answer, but do you feel the Holy Spirit guides you (and others, I suppose) in reasoning it out from those simple themes? That's the function of that aspect of the Trinity, right?

(I'm not asking if you hear voices or stuff like that)

[LittleFuzzy]

Right, this was my guess, but you're more in tune with what's going on in the trenches (as it were).

This is personal and I don't mind if you don't want to answer, but do you feel the Holy Spirit guides you (and others, I suppose) in reasoning it out from those simple themes? That's the function of that aspect of the Trinity, right?

(I'm not asking if you hear voices or stuff like that)

Never really thought about it. If it does, it would seem to me that it wants a multiplicity of views, judging from the results
I think we are blind men with an elephant. Presbyterian:Baptist. Protestant:Orthodox. Christianity:Islam. Monotheists:Polytheists: Theists:Non-theists. We all get a piece right here or there.

[Nessus]

Never really thought about it. If it does, it would seem to me that it wants a multiplicity of views, judging from the results
I think we are blind men with an elephant. Presbyterian:Baptist. Protestant:Orthodox. Christianity:Islam. Monotheists:Polytheists: Theists:Non-theists. We all get a piece right here or there.

So atheists are the only ones who don't get to play with the elephant? Aww More seriously, is there a place in that world for complete atheism and rejection of all 'super-natural' elements as I, for example, view the world? I'm reading your post as that I'm not touching the elephant, but is that so? In your view.