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Thread: Atlas Spurned

  1. #1

    Default Atlas Spurned

    Atlas Spurned

    By JENNIFER BURNS

    Published: August 14, 2012


    EARLY in his Congressional career, Paul D. Ryan, the Wisconsin representative and presumptive Republican vice-presidential nominee, would give out copies of Ayn Rand’s book “Atlas Shrugged” as Christmas presents. He described the novelist of heroic capitalism as “the reason I got into public service.” But what would Rand think of Mr. Ryan?


    While Rand, an atheist, did enjoy a good Christmas celebration for its cheerful commercialism, she would have scoffed at the idea of public service. And though Mr. Ryan’s advocacy of steep cuts in government spending would have pleased her, she would have vehemently opposed his social conservatism and hawkish foreign policy. She would have denounced Mr. Ryan as she denounced Ronald Reagan, for trying “to take us back to the Middle Ages, via the unconstitutional union of religion and politics.”


    Mr. Ryan’s youthful, feverish embrace of Rand and his clumsy attempts to distance himself from her is more than the flip-flopping of an ambitious politician: it is a window into the ideological fissures at the heart of modern conservatism.


    Rand’s atheism and social libertarianism have long placed her in an uneasy position in the pantheon of conservative heroes, but she has proved irresistible to those who came of age in the baby boom and after. They found her iconoclasm thrilling, and her admirers poured into Barry M. Goldwater’s doomed 1964 presidential campaign, the Libertarian Party and the Cato Institute. After her death, in 1982, it became even easier for her admirers to ignore the parts of her message they didn’t like and focus on her advocacy of unfettered capitalism and her celebration of the individual.

    Mr. Ryan is particularly taken by Rand’s black-and-white worldview. “The fight we are in here,” he once told a group of her adherents, “is a fight of individualism versus collectivism.” If she were alive, he said, Rand would do “a great job in showing us just how wrong what government is doing is.”
    Rand’s anti-government argument rested on another binary opposition, between “producers” who create wealth and “moochers” who feed off them. This theme has endeared Rand, and Mr. Ryan, to the Tea Party, whose members believe they are the only ones who deserve government aid.
    Yet when his embrace of Rand drew fire from Catholic leaders, Mr. Ryan reversed course with a speed that would make his running mate, Mitt Romney, proud. “Don’t give me Ayn Rand,” he told National Review earlier this year. “Give me Thomas Aquinas.” He claimed that his austere budget was motivated by the Catholic principle of subsidiarity, which holds that issues should be handled at the most local level possible, rather than Rand’s anti-government views.


    This retreat to religion would have infuriated Rand, who believed it was impossible to separate government policies from their moral and philosophical underpinnings. Policies motivated by Christian values, which she called “the best kindergarten of communism possible,” were inherently corrupt.
    Free-market capitalism, she said, needed a new, secular morality of selfishness, one she promoted in her novels, nonfiction and newsletters. Conservative contemporaries would have none of it: William F. Buckley Jr. criticized her “desiccated philosophy” and Whittaker Chambers dubbed her “Big Sister.”


    Mr. Ryan’s rise is a telling index of how far conservatism has evolved from its founding principles. The creators of the movement embraced the free market, but shied from Rand’s promotion of capitalism as a moral system. They emphasized the practical benefits of capitalism, not its ethics. Their fidelity to Christianity grew into a staunch social conservatism that Rand fought against in vain.


    Mr. Ryan has attempted a similar pirouette, but it is too late: driven by the fever of the Tea Party and drawing upon a wellspring of enthusiasm for Rand, politicians like Mr. Ryan have set the philosophy of “Atlas Shrugged” at the core of modern Republicanism.


    In so doing, modern conservatives ignore the fundamental principles that animated Rand: personal as well as economic freedom. Her philosophy sprang from her deep belief in the autonomy and independence of each individual. This meant that individuals could not depend on government for retirement savings or medical care. But it also meant that individuals must be free from government interference in their personal lives.


    Years before Roe v. Wade, Rand called abortion “a moral right which should be left to the sole discretion of the woman involved.” She condemned the military draft and American involvement in Vietnam. She warned against recreational drugs but thought government had no right to ban them. These aspects of Rand do not fit with a political view that weds fiscal and social conservatism.


    Mr. Ryan’s selection as Mr. Romney’s running mate is the kind of stinging rebuke of the welfare state that Rand hoped to see during her lifetime. But Mr. Ryan is also what she called “a conservative in the worst sense of the word.” As a woman in a man’s world, a Jewish atheist in a country dominated by Christianity and a refugee from a totalitarian state, Rand knew it was not enough to promote individual freedom in the economic realm alone. If Mr. Ryan becomes the next vice president, it wouldn’t be her dream come true, but her nightmare.


    Jennifer Burns, an assistant professor of history at Stanford, is the author of “Goddess of the Market: Ayn Rand and the American Right.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/15/op...ryan.html?_r=1



    Thought it'd be better to expand this discussion out of other threads, where philosophies on Individualism and Capitalism are always butting heads with Progressivism, private/public, and politics.

    One of the comments summed up my pov pretty well:

    All political ideologies aside, we are a constitutional democracy first and foremost, which is – dare I say – a higher ideal than free commercial enterprise. Our Founding Fathers recognized this, and so did the states, when they enacted and ratified Art. I, Sec. 8 of the Constitution, giving a governmental body, our Congress, the authority to regulate interstate and international commerce. By authority of the Commerce Clause, our founders made Big Business answerable to us and subject to our regulation through our elected representatives.

    Some folks today have forgotten this. For reasons that make no sense to me the proponents of unregulated free market capitalism think that our country would be better off if we leave Big Business alone, if we let it govern itself, no matter how it affects our lives. To me, these folks seem to value fate over cultural self-determinism, the interests of the few, over the interests of the many, affluence, over need.

    But it is need, the needs of the many, that is the foundation underlying democracy. Serving the few, by empowering them to do what they want, regardless of the consequences of their actions, disempowers the rest of us from self-governance. It seems to me that this is a moral hazard of the laissez-faire economic model of today’s Republican Party based, in part, on the ideology of Ayn Rand, rather than on the ideology of a democratic republic and elected representation.

  2. #2
    "By authority of the Commerce Clause, our founders made Big Business answerable to us and subject to our regulation through our elected representatives."

    Big Business in 1789? Really?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    Those tricorn hats don't make themselves.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Big Business in 1789? Really?
    The slaves didn't exactly swim over themselves
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

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    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    "By authority of the Commerce Clause, our founders made Big Business answerable to us and subject to our regulation through our elected representatives."

    Big Business in 1789? Really?
    Well, I don't know about the US case, but business like the VOC which was founded around 1600 definitely would fall under the category 'big business'.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  6. #6
    Interstate and international commerce in 1789?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  7. #7
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Someone who likes Rand's work/philosophy does not follow it completely in lock step?

    Let's get that on the news.
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  8. #8
    The commerce clause wasn't about market regulation. In many ways it was about forcing deregulation on the states since regulation at the time mostly consisted of discriminating for or against specific actors which made commerce crossing state lines an incredible headache. SCOTUS heard the case Gibbons v Ogden fairly early on and let that stand more or less untouched for close to a century after. You have to remember, while Adam Smith had published Wealth of Nations already, free market theory was not the dominant economic model at the time.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

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    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    You said the d-word...she's gonna have the Occupy Movement go to your house...
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    You said the d-word...she's gonna have the Occupy Movement go to your house...
    On one hand, it saddens me that there's no cohesive worker's movement in America today as there was back in the 30s and 40s that actually could be a credible threat

    On the other, given the paramilitarization of your police force, they'd all just get shot with machine guns, so what the hey
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    On one hand, it saddens me that there's no cohesive worker's movement in America today as there was back in the 30s and 40s that actually could be a credible threat

    On the other, given the paramilitarization of your police force, they'd all just get shot with machine guns, so what the hey
    Assault rifles. The police don't have machine guns, even in New York City. You want those you need to call out national guard units.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  12. #12
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    On one hand, it saddens me that there's no cohesive worker's movement in America today as there was back in the 30s and 40s that actually could be a credible threat

    On the other, given the paramilitarization of your police force, they'd all just get shot with machine guns, so what the hey
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4acd...eature=related

    No cohesive worker's movement? SEIU ring ANY bells?

    And ummm...this mob was escorted by the police.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4acd...eature=related

    No cohesive worker's movement? SEIU ring ANY bells?

    And ummm...this mob was escorted by the police.
    Hopefully more states will adopt castle doctrines, and the home-owner could've executed that liberal drivel whore right on their door-step

    I'm not really invested in the matter enough to argue this to the point of data mining etc., but if this woman and the other cap-wearers frighten you as much as the communists frightened the post-WW2 US conservatives, I honestly don't know what to tell you
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  14. #14
    It was just a comment from a reader that I liked. Mostly on the unfettered free markets and laissez-faire theory of governance that isn't based in any reality, and that 'founding fathers' wrote a constitution that recognizes, and legitimizes, the role of government and legislation. Y'know, all that We, The People and representative democracy in a republic, a Union.

    IMO, "government" is how we try to balance out extremes, whether it's radical Individualism, total Collectivism, Corporatism, Militarism, or any Religious extremism. All those "isms" that can destroy a nation from within. It's a big red flag that our politics has become so polarized, when "extreme fringes" are incorporated into one party or the other, and can force extreme swings just to get more votes under their tent.

    Yeah, I mean the Tea Party factions, Religious fanatics, homophobes and xenophobes who've found a "home" in the GOP. All that's needed is claiming they're fiscal conservatives and they're under the tent. It's called appealing to their base....that's pretty scary if true...and ignores everyone in the middle or on the fence, and those who don't subscribe to Party Politics. That's a recipe for contaminating governance with extremism, and more polarization. I don't think the general population is as divided as our gov't (and politics) reflects, and doesn't see negotiation or compromise as dirty words that betray principles.

  15. #15
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    And we are right back to your dodging and hyperbole...good fun! Oh right, we are ALL serious here!

    You opined that there is not a cohesive movement. There is. SEIU has a lot of political power in this country.

    If a couple of hundred bible thumpers showed up on YOUR doorstep, protesting your sinful ways, you might be a wee bit on edge too.

    Look, there was a 17 yr old kid in the house, alone, and he was a bit scared of the MOB outside his house.

    Fuck, I would be a bit shocked and scared to find a bunch of twats like these on my yard. Should I just allow them to stay there, trespassing?

    You think they would leave if politely asked by the homeowner?

    Union thugery is NOT imaginary, I've experienced it.

    What is you're definition of cohesive workers movement?
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    And we are right back to your dodging and hyperbole...good fun! Oh right, we are ALL serious here!

    You opined that there is not a cohesive movement. There is. SEIU has a lot of political power in this country.

    If a couple of hundred bible thumpers showed up on YOUR doorstep, protesting your sinful ways, you might be a wee bit on edge too.

    Look, there was a 17 yr old kid in the house, alone, and he was a bit scared of the MOB outside his house.

    Fuck, I would be a bit shocked and scared to find a bunch of twats like these on my yard. Should I just allow them to stay there, trespassing?

    You think they would leave if politely asked by the homeowner?

    Union thugery is NOT imaginary, I've experienced it.

    What is you're definition of cohesive workers movement?
    Okay, there's a cohesive workers' movement in the US that is capable of acts of terrorism.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    And we are right back to your dodging and hyperbole...good fun! Oh right, we are ALL serious here!

    You opined that there is not a cohesive movement. There is. SEIU has a lot of political power in this country.

    If a couple of hundred bible thumpers showed up on YOUR doorstep, protesting your sinful ways, you might be a wee bit on edge too.

    Look, there was a 17 yr old kid in the house, alone, and he was a bit scared of the MOB outside his house.

    Fuck, I would be a bit shocked and scared to find a bunch of twats like these on my yard. Should I just allow them to stay there, trespassing?

    You think they would leave if politely asked by the homeowner?

    Union thugery is NOT imaginary, I've experienced it.

    What is you're definition of cohesive workers movement?
    In the same sentence it was compared to cohesive movements in the 30s and 40s and the actual threat they posed. By all means, the movements are probably less cohesive, and definitely less of a threat now. I don't see how that's wrong?

    Also, I despise this kind of thuggery, just so you know.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  18. #18
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    I would say in this information age they are MORE cohesive, but less in #.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    You said the d-word...she's gonna have the Occupy Movement go to your house...
    Cute. But it's worth noting that Greenspan was a huge Rand fan, and believed that The Markets could and would regulate themselves....based on self-interests (profits) of the actors. That would naturally prevent things from getting too risky, volatile, over-leveraged, or destructive. Only "creative destruction" would happen, leading to more innovation and...more profits. In turn, those profits that would trickle down to everyone, meaning more jobs and more investments and....more profits!

    And we all know greed is good, capitalism isn't meant to have a moral compass, Animal Spirits have no need for containment, what's good for The Markets is good for society, and everyone's self-interests will automatically play in unison like a beautiful orchestra. What could possible go wrong, please pass the punch? Even Greenspan finally found the flaw in that philosophy, but only after things went to hell in a hand basket. He was shocked, shocked I tell you!

  20. #20
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Wait, you trust a word that Greenspan says?
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  21. #21
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Of course, he has Green in his name!
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  22. #22
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Yeah, Greenspan...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mII9N...eature=related

    I know I need to take this tongue in cheek...but it's fun to watch.
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  23. #23
    The sudden hand-wringing about Ayn Rand among left-wing sites is curious. A guy says he read a pretty famous book that inspired him to appreciate the value of business. I've never read the book; I've heard it's terribly written. And the movie version that came out last year looks awful.

    Nonetheless, I've seen days of people simultaneously bashing Ayn Rand, and bashing Paul Ryan for not agreeing with everything Ayn Rand stood for. WTF, which is it?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I've never read the book; I've heard it's terribly written.
    I'm imagining Dreadnaught buying a copy of Atlas Shrugged online, getting an original first edition copy, the delivery guy cryptically telling him "He must not read from the book!", Dreadnaught ignoring his warning and reading it anyway, then Ayn Rand coming back from the grave like Imhotep in The Mummy.
    . . .

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    The sudden hand-wringing about Ayn Rand among left-wing sites is curious.
    That you're trolling 'left-wing sites' despite your low opinion of them is curiouser.


    A guy says he read a pretty famous book that inspired him to appreciate the value of business. I've never read the book; I've heard it's terribly written. And the movie version that came out last year looks awful.

    Nonetheless, I've seen days of people simultaneously bashing Ayn Rand, and bashing Paul Ryan for not agreeing with everything Ayn Rand stood for. WTF, which is it?
    He gives her book as presents, requires his interns to read Atlas Shrugged, gives speeches at Atlas club, cites her philosophies in interviews, and credits her with the foundation of his economic policy beliefs. That kind of overt 'admiration' is fair game for vetting a political figure, especially a VP candidate. Wouldn't you agree?

  26. #26
    He cites the book as an inspiration, but actually my point was:

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    I've seen days of people simultaneously bashing Ayn Rand, and bashing Paul Ryan for not agreeing with everything Ayn Rand stood for. WTF, which is it?

  27. #27
    You're asking the wrong "which is it?" question. He's claiming to be both a conservative Catholic, and a Rand acolyte, at the same time. Those are about as diametrically opposed philosophies as you can get. When he speaks to religious groups, he touts his religiosity as the foundation of his beliefs. When he speaks to economic groups, he pulls out the Rand card as the foundation of his beliefs.

    Sure, lots of politicians nuance their speeches to a particular audience. But now he's on the national stage, and he's being asked how he reconciles the two halves, as part of his decision-making and prioritizing. Personally, I don't have a problem with "cafeteria style" choosing from one column and then another. But Ryan says that kind of "moral relativism" is bad.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Someone who likes Rand's work/philosophy does not follow it completely in lock step?

    Let's get that on the news.
    Exactly. I never get why you have to be in favor of EVERYTHING someone does that you think had a great perspective on certain points.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    You're asking the wrong "which is it?" question. He's claiming to be both a conservative Catholic, and a Rand acolyte, at the same time. Those are about as diametrically opposed philosophies as you can get. When he speaks to religious groups, he touts his religiosity as the foundation of his beliefs. When he speaks to economic groups, he pulls out the Rand card as the foundation of his beliefs.

    Sure, lots of politicians nuance their speeches to a particular audience. But now he's on the national stage, and he's being asked how he reconciles the two halves, as part of his decision-making and prioritizing. Personally, I don't have a problem with "cafeteria style" choosing from one column and then another. But Ryan says that kind of "moral relativism" is bad.
    You can be a Catholic and a libertarian... you can be gay and be a Republican. Not everyone fits in a neat category on every subject. I for example can't stand laws against drugs and gambling, would you say I'm not a "true conservative" because of that? Its obvious that Ryan likes Rand's economic beliefs and didn't like her personal moral choices like atheism. MLK was a great civil rights leader but also an adulterer, are you now going to suggest that people who say MLK is their hero and role model have to cheat on their spouses? No that's stupid, as stupid as the idea that in order to embrace Rand's positions on government and economics you have to embrace her lack of theology.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    You can be a Catholic and a libertarian... you can be gay and be a Republican. Not everyone fits in a neat category on every subject. I for example can't stand laws against drugs and gambling, would you say I'm not a "true conservative" because of that? Its obvious that Ryan likes Rand's economic beliefs and didn't like her personal moral choices like atheism. MLK was a great civil rights leader but also an adulterer, are you now going to suggest that people who say MLK is their hero and role model have to cheat on their spouses? No that's stupid, as stupid as the idea that in order to embrace Rand's positions on government and economics you have to embrace her lack of theology.
    Ayn Rand's position on government and economics were based on atheism, and was the root of "objectivism". She denounced altruism of any kind, as well as moral relativism. Everything was about the Individual and self-interest, pretty much black-and-white stuff. Have you even read her writings?

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