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Thread: Operation 'Together' In Afghanistan

  1. #1

    Default Operation 'Together' In Afghanistan

    Today a joint force of US Marines and Afghan troops began an assault on Marjah, the last major urban center (really just a town) held by the Taliban in the South. It's a major agricultural hub, (ironically because of a canal system built with US aid money some twenty years ago) meaning it produces food and opium, both of which the Taliban need. This operation is notable for two things. First, it involves significant numbers of Afghan government troops, including a replacement police force that will theoretically be less corrupt than the notoriously corrupt current police force in the town. Second, the attack has been openly publicized for weeks in advance, seemingly contrary to common sense military planning.

    The involvement of Afghan government troops and police along side the US marines gives the operation its name, "Moshtarak," which translates as "Together." This is important because because it A. offers the opportunity to lend legitimacy to the Karzai government, B. gives the new government troops the opportunity for field experience, C. in the case of the replacement police, offers the opportunity to prove the central government is an improvement over the local Taliban rule. These three items make this a key operation for the US counterisurgency plan and its success or failure is a bellwether for whether the US will pull off some semblance of vicotry in the war.

    The announcement of the invasion has been met with criticism and skepticism from all sides. What army announces to the enemy where and more or less when they are preparing to invade? It sounds insane to give the enemy the opportunity to shore up defences and bring in reinforcements. But its not insane. Its completely in keeping with General McChrystal's counter insurgency plan which does not focus of killing Taliban but on protecting the civilian population in Afghanistan. With that strategy in mind, warning the Taliban in advance that there would be an attack achieves three things:

    #1. The Taliban have the opportunity to consider their odds and withdraw. That would leave the US in control of the population center without a fight, allowing them to protect and provide services to the civilians. The fact that the Taliban escaped is meaningless because fighting and killing the Taliban is irrelevant to the strategy so long as they are not threateing the population. And then there's the public humiliation of the Taliban fighters if they run; the Afghan civilians lose faith in them.

    #2. The civilian population has the opportunity to run and/or prepare for the attack, meaning there will be fewer civilian casualties and the populace cannot help but get the message that the US / Afghan forces actually care about their safety.

    #3. If the Taliban do decide to stand and fight, to reinforce their numbers and defenses, it gives the US / Afghan forces the opportunity for a decisive victory. Routing the defenders sends a similar message as #1: the Taliban are weak. And if they fight, they really will be weaker in numbers and morale as a result.

    Assuming the US / Afghan forces are not defeated, a fairly safe assumption considering the imbalance of numbers, training and fire-power available to the opposing sides, this opperation offers the potential for a major step forward in the Afghan war. Regardless of what the Taliban decide to do, stand and fight or run to fight another day, the US / Afghan government stand to come out on top.
    Last edited by EyeKhan; 02-13-2010 at 04:45 AM.
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  2. #2
    The problem is that the Taliban will come back as soon as the US leaves the area.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The problem is that the Taliban will come back as soon as the US leaves the area.
    As with the first offensive into Helmand Province last summer, the intent is to maintain a protective presence in the population centers. Protecting the civilians is the key to McChrystal's counterinsurgency strategy. Assuming all goes as planned, there will not be a withdrawal.

    For reference:
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=106561669
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    As with the first offensive into Helmand Province last summer, the intent is to maintain a protective presence in the population centers. Protecting the civilians is the key to McChrystal's counterinsurgency strategy. Assuming all goes as planned, there will not be a withdrawal.

    For reference:
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=106561669
    The US can control the cities, but the Taliban will continue to control the countryside, and that's where a majority of the population lives (the US doesn't have the manpower to adequately protect the countryside). These kind of offensives have been undertaken numerous times in the past. The US will probably kill a few dozen Taliban foot soldiers, with the rest of the Taliban melting away and shifting their attention elsewhere. Once the US leaves, they will come back. In the interim, the locals will be loathe to be seen as cooperating with the US, because once the Taliban comes back, they'd be killed. There is no military solution to this problem.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The US can control the cities, but the Taliban will continue to control the countryside, and that's where a majority of the population lives (the US doesn't have the manpower to adequately protect the countryside). These kind of offensives have been undertaken numerous times in the past. The US will probably kill a few dozen Taliban foot soldiers, with the rest of the Taliban melting away and shifting their attention elsewhere. Once the US leaves, they will come back. In the interim, the locals will be loathe to be seen as cooperating with the US, because once the Taliban comes back, they'd be killed. There is no military solution to this problem.
    Well, from what I've read and heard, what you are describing is the situation before McChrystal took over. He's clearly and loudly stated he's not using that play book anymore. The population in Afghanistan isn't as spread out as you think. Its concentrated in certain areas where there is water and arable land, like the Helmand river valley. Much of the countryside is sparsely populated because the terrain does not lend itself to even subsitance living. Whether the US/ NATO/ the Afghan government have enough boots on the ground to provide security, and justice, for enough of the country's people to starve the insurgency of aid remains to be seen. I think the key is whether the less fervent of Taliban forces will stop fighting, or even switch sides, once they know the US/ NATO/AFghan forces won't pull out like you describe. Clearly its a quesiton of time at that point because the occupation can't go on too much longer. Can the insurgency wait them out? Can a national army be ready soon enough?
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Today a joint force of US Marines and Afghan troops
    4,000 British troops plus support from Canadians, Danes and Estonians were part of the operation too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    4,000 British troops plus support from Canadians, Danes and Estonians were part of the operation too.
    My apologies to the Europeans. The article I linked did mention some brits. I believe the Marines are doing the lions share of the fighting, though it could be media bias here.
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  8. #8
    It's a US led operation, naturally, though Helmand is the region that has been under British control*.


    * in the loosest sense of the word
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    It's a US led operation, naturally, though Helmand is the region that has been under British control*.


    * in the loosest sense of the word
    I wonder how much of the fighting the Afghans are doing... The article says "some" were in the first wave of troops that landed in the town by helicopter. That by itself seems an odd tactic - to drop into a fortified enemy stronghold by helicopter. I'd like to see more details of the operation....
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  10. #10
    Here's an update on the battle from the AP. Some of the discussion addresses some of the points Loki raised. I'm hopeful that if they pull this off correctly - ie don't kill a lot of civvies, bring in corruption-free government administration, provide some improvement to services - this could be the first step toward a positive outcome in this war.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100213/...as_afghanistan

    Bombs slow US advance in Taliban-held Afghan town

    By ALFRED de MONTESQUIOU, Associated Press Writer Alfred De Montesquiou, Associated Press Writer – 2 hrs 33 mins ago

    MARJAH, Afghanistan – Bombs and booby traps slowed the advance of thousands of U.S. Marines and Afghan soldiers moving Saturday through the Taliban-controlled town of Marjah — NATO's most ambitious effort yet to break the militants' grip over their southern heartland.

    NATO said it hoped to secure the area in days, set up a local government and rush in development aid in a first test of the new U.S. strategy for turning the tide of the eight-year war. The offensive is the largest since the 2001 U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan.

    The Taliban appeared to have scattered in the face of overwhelming force, possibly waiting to regroup and stage attacks later to foil the alliance's plan to stabilize the area and expand Afghan government control in the volatile south.

    NATO said two of its soldiers were killed in the first day of the operation — one American and one Briton, according to military officials in their countries. Afghan authorities said at least 20 insurgents were killed.

    More than 30 transport helicopters ferried troops into the heart of Marjah before dawn Saturday, while British, Afghan and U.S. troops fanned out across the Nad Ali district to the north of the mudbrick town, long a stronghold of the Taliban.

    Maj. Gen. Gordon Messenger told reporters in London that British forces "have successfully secured the area militarily" with only sporadic resistance from Taliban forces. A Taliban spokesman insisted their forces still controlled the town.

    In Marjah, Marines and Afghan troops faced little armed resistance. But their advance through the town was impeded by countless land mines, homemade bombs and booby-traps littering the area.

    Throughout the day, Marine ordnance teams blew up bombs where they were found, setting off huge explosions that reverberated through the dusty streets.

    The bridge over the canal into Marjah from the north was rigged with so many explosives that Marines erected temporary bridges to cross into the town.

    "It's just got to be a very slow and deliberate process," said Capt. Joshua Winfrey of Stillwater, Okla., a Marine company commander.

    Lt. Col. Brian Christmas, commander of the 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines, said U.S. troops fought gunbattles in at least four areas of the town, including the western suburb of Sistani where India Company faced "some intense fighting."

    To the east, the battalion's Kilo Company was inserted into the town by helicopter without meeting resistance but was then "significantly engaged" as the Marines fanned out from the landing zone, Christmas said.
    Marine commanders had said they expected between 400 and 1,000 insurgents — including more than 100 foreign fighters — to be holed up in Marjah, a town of 80,000 people which is the linchpin of the militants' logistical and opium-smuggling network in the south.

    Shopkeeper Abdul Kader, 44, said seven or eight Taliban fighters, who had been holding the position where the Marines crossed over, had fled in the middle of the night. He said he was angry at the insurgents for having planted bombs and mines all around his neighborhood.

    "They left with their motorcycles and their guns. They went deeper into town," he said as Marines and Afghan troops searched a poppy field next to his house. "We can't even walk out of our own houses."

    Saturday's ground assault followed several hours after the first wave of helicopters flew troops over the mine fields into the center of town before dawn. Helicopter gunships fired missiles at Taliban tunnels and bunkers while flares illuminated the night sky so pilots could see their landing zones.

    The offensive, code-named "Moshtarak," or "Together," was described as the biggest joint operation of the Afghan war, with 15,000 troops involved, including some 7,500 in Marjah itself. The government says Afghan soldiers make up at least half of the offensive's force.

    Elsewhere in the south, three U.S. soldiers were killed by a bomb in an attack unrelated to the operation, NATO said.

    Once Marjah is secured, NATO hopes to quickly deliver aid and provide public services in a bid to win support among the estimated 125,000 people who live in the town and surrounding villages. The Afghans' ability to restore those services is crucial to the success of the operation and in preventing the Taliban from returning.

    Maj. Gen. Nick Carter, the top NATO commander in the south, said coalition forces hope to install an Afghan government presence within the next few days, bringing health care, education, electricity and other public services to win the allegiance of the townspeople.

    Teams of international development workers and Afghan officials are ready to enter the area as soon as security permits. A deputy district chief has already been appointed for Marjah and government teams have drawn up maps of where schools, clinics and mosques should be built.

    Some officials were more cautious about the speed with which government can be installed. "I can't yet say how long it will take for this military phase to get to the point where we can bring in the civilian support from the Afghan government. We hope that will happen quickly," NATO's civilian chief, Mark Sedwill, said in Kabul.
    Sedwill said a key part of establishing government in Marjah will be a series of meetings with tribal elders to hear their concerns much like two meetings that preceded the offensive.

    Tribal elders have pleaded with NATO to finish the operation quickly and spare civilians — an appeal that offers some hope the townspeople will cooperate with Afghan and international forces once the Taliban are gone. Still, the town's residents have displayed few signs of rushing to welcome the attack force. "The elders are telling people to stay behind the front doors and keep them bolted," Carter said. "Once people feel more secure and they realize there is government present on the ground, they will come out and tell us where the IEDs are."
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  11. #11
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Several American government officials gave details about the raid on the condition that they not be named, because the operation was classified.
    Isn't that tantamount to treason?

    Mullah Baradar has been in Pakistani custody for several days, with American and Pakistani intelligence officials both taking part in interrogations, according to the officials.
    They'll probably need to offer him a mansion on the Riviera to get him to talk. I mean torture is off the table, right?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  13. #13
    Wow, this is great news in a number of different ways.
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  14. #14
    It will probably save the lives of dozens of American troops over the next year, but I'm not convinced it will have a more significant long term effect. We can only wait and see.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    It will probably save the lives of dozens of American troops over the next year, but I'm not convinced it will have a more significant long term effect. We can only wait and see.
    It may signal a greater willingness on the part of Pakistan to put more pressure on these guys within their own borders. That may help significantly and long term.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    It may signal a greater willingness on the part of Pakistan to put more pressure on these guys within their own borders. That may help significantly and long term.
    That much is true. But what happens once the Pakistani Taliban backs off a bit? The only reason Pakistan is really helping now is because the Afghan and Pakistani Taliban are working together. It need not be the case.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    From what it sounds like, they're letting Pakistan interrogate him. I doubt they have some of the same conniptions that we do with regards to interrogation.

  18. #18
    Capturing/killing major insurgent leaders has been accomplished before, and as Loki suggested it does not usually have much of a long term effect.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  19. #19
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/wo...7intel.html?hp

    Looks like things aren't what they seem.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/wo...7intel.html?hp

    Looks like things aren't what they seem.
    Holy Shit. They arrested him to stop the US from negotiating. Fuck. And once they decided to it didn't take long to nail him either. I wonder who else they could easily nail if they wanted to. This is totally fucked up. I don't think anything vis a vis Pakistan and Taliban is what it seems.
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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Holy Shit. They arrested him to stop the US from negotiating. Fuck. And once they decided to it didn't take long to nail him either. I wonder who else they could easily nail if they wanted to. This is totally fucked up. I don't think anything vis a vis Pakistan and Taliban is what it seems.
    Tut tut, you're forgetting uncle George's lesson. A perpetual war is one of the tools needed to keep a populace dumb, poor and ignorant, and accept it. It would be such a shame if all those concrete and steel bunkers, and all those wonderfully destructive little gifts of science, and the men and women who wield them, had no reason to be, and to work. Wouldn't it?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Tut tut, you're forgetting uncle George's lesson. A perpetual war is one of the tools needed to keep a populace dumb, poor and ignorant, and accept it. It would be such a shame if all those concrete and steel bunkers, and all those wonderfully destructive little gifts of science, and the men and women who wield them, had no reason to be, and to work. Wouldn't it?
    You taught me nothing has any reason to be.
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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    You taught me nothing has any reason to be.
    No objective reason. So we must manufacture them, like small works of art. So the burials of your dead little boys and girls, torn to shreds by other boys and girls halfway across the globe, are turned into grand spectacles of grief-ridden honour, and pride. Society, in the wake of the cold war, decreed that the most valuable people in both superpowers were the generals, and possibly the political leaders. So the generals were encased in massive constructions, hidden under great mountains, to preserve at least them, these paragons of man, when the world was struck alight by elemental fire. That's a reason. Is it a good reason? Many seem to think so.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    No objective reason. So we must manufacture them, like small works of art. So the burials of your dead little boys and girls, torn to shreds by other boys and girls halfway across the globe, are turned into grand spectacles of grief-ridden honour, and pride. Society, in the wake of the cold war, decreed that the most valuable people in both superpowers were the generals, and possibly the political leaders. So the generals were encased in massive constructions, hidden under great mountains, to preserve at least them, these paragons of man, when the world was struck alight by elemental fire. That's a reason. Is it a good reason? Many seem to think so.
    Is a cause a reason? There are causes for everything. I think there are reasons for everything. But not purpose. Right? How can there not be a purpose. Something. The cruelty of no purpose, really no purpose, to anything is like an intent, a purpose, in and of itself. Malice.
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  25. #25
    Wrong
    "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Spawnie View Post
    Wrong
    yeah.
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  27. #27

  28. #28
    Interesting. I'm assuming they anticipated this and have some sort of countermeasure for it. On the plus side, rather than being the local security,law and order, and system of justice, the Taliban are now the terrorizers which could play into the hands of the government/US.
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  29. #29
    Hope is the denial of reality

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Why are you quoting a source you despise?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

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