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Thread: "We have a 'moral obligation' to seed universe with life"

  1. #1

    Default "We have a 'moral obligation' to seed universe with life"

    (PhysOrg.com) -- Eventually, the day will come when life on Earth ends. Whether that’s tomorrow or five billion years from now, whether by nuclear war, climate change, or the Sun burning up its fuel, the last living cell on Earth will one day wither and die. But that doesn’t mean that all is lost. What if we had the chance to sow the seeds of terrestrial life throughout the universe, to settle young planets within developing solar systems many light-years away, and thus give our long evolutionary line the chance to continue indefinitely?

    According to Michael Mautner, Research Professor of Chemistry at Virginia Commonwealth University, seeding the universe with life is not just an option, it’s our moral obligation. As members of this planet’s menagerie, and a consequence of nearly 4 billion years of evolution, humans have a purpose to propagate life. After all, whatever else life is, it necessarily possesses an incessant drive for self-perpetuation. And the idea isn’t just fantasy: Mautner says that “directed panspermia” missions can be accomplished with present technology.

    “We have a moral obligation to plan for the propagation of life, and even the transfer of human life to other solar systems which can be transformed via microbial activity, thereby preparing these worlds to develop and sustain complex life,” Mautner explained to PhysOrg.com. “Securing that future for life can give our human existence a cosmic purpose.”

    As Mautner explains in his study published in an upcoming issue of the Journal of Cosmology, the strategy is to deposit an array of primitive organisms on potentially fertile planets and protoplanets throughout the universe. Like the earliest life on Earth, organisms such as cyanobacteria could seed other planets, digest toxic gases (such as ammonia and carbon dioxide on early Earth) and release products such as oxygen which promote the evolution of more complex species. To increase their chances of success, the microbial payloads should contain a variety of organisms with various environmental tolerances, and hardy multicellular organisms such as rotifer eggs to jumpstart higher evolution. These organisms may be captured into asteroids and comets in the newly forming solar systems and transported from there by impacts to planets as their host environments develop.

    Mautner has identified potential breeding grounds, which include extrasolar planets, accretion disks surrounding young stars that hold the gas and dust of future planets, and - at an even earlier stage - interstellar clouds that hold the materials to create stars. He explains that the Kepler mission may identify hundreds of biocompatible extrasolar planets, and astronomers are already aware of several accretion disks and interstellar clouds that could serve as targets. These potential habitats range in distance from a few light-years to 500 or more light-years away.

    To transport the microorganisms, Mautner proposes using sail-ships. These ships offer a low-cost transportation method with solar sails, which can achieve high velocities using the radiation pressure from light. The microorganisms could be bundled in tiny capsules, each containing about 100,000 microorganisms and weighing 0.1 micrograms. Mautner predicts that the most challenging part of the process would be the precise aiming required in order for a mission to arrive at its target destination after hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of years of travel.

    Accounting for the difficulties of each of the steps involved, Mautner has calculated how many microbial capsules would be needed to ensure a reasonable probability of success. He concludes that a few hundred tons of microbial biomass “can seed dozens of new solar systems in an interstellar cloud with life for eons.” With launch costs of $10,000/kg, this amount of biomass would cost about $1 billion to launch. If we can aim precisely at planets in nearby solar systems, the mission would require significantly fewer capsules, smaller biomass, and lower costs. Mautner predicts that, while the technology is currently available, such an initiative will be easier to implement as space infrastructure develops and launch costs decrease.

    As Mautner notes, several scientists have previously proposed ways to seed planets (notably, Venus and Mars) in our own solar system with microorganisms in order to alter the atmosphere and possibly make them habitable for humans. Also, some theories suggest that, on Earth, life-supporting nutrients and materials - or even life itself - may have come from somewhere else in the universe, arriving here on meteors, asteroids, and comets. In a sense, Mautner’s proposal would simply be helping life’s planet-hopping journey continue.

    But, some critics might ask, what if extraterrestrial life already exists somewhere else, and we infect it with our own invasive genetic material? First of all, Mautner explains that we can minimize these chances by targeting very primitive locations where life could not have evolved yet. In addition, he argues that, since extraterrestrial life is not currently known to exist, our first concern should be with preserving our family of organic gene/protein life that we know exists.

    In the long term, Mautner is hopeful that life can continue existing beyond our home planet. Using techniques from astroecology based on the energy output of stars, he calculates that the amount of sustainable life can be significant in other neighborhoods of the universe. Of course, it’s impossible to know for sure how everything will turn out after we’re long gone.

    “May life last indefinitely?” he writes. “The habitable lifetime of the galaxy may depend on the dark matter and energy. These forces may need to be observed for many more eons to predict their future behaviour. During those cosmological times our descendants may understand nature more deeply and seek to extend life indefinitely.”

    More information: Michael N. Mautner. “Seeding the Universe with Life: Securing Our Cosmological Future.” Journal of Cosmology, 2010, Vol. 5. http://journalofcosmology.com/SearchForLife111.html

    Book: “Seeding the Universe with Life: Securing Our Cosmological Future” (available at amazon.com and ebookmall.com)

    Websites:
    Directed panspermia and the Society for Life in Space (SOLIS): www.panspermia-society.com
    Astroecology and the future of life: www.Astro-Ecology.com
    Ethical aspects: www.astroethics.com

    Contact: info[at]solis1.com
    http://www.physorg.com/news184915200.html

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  2. #2
    Oh my goodness

    One of the defining quotes of my life is almost relevant!

    And yet we knew, for a certainty, that when the first emissaries of Earth went walking among the planets, Earth's other sons would be dreaming not about such expeditions but about a piece of bread.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  3. #3
    Dreaming meat Tempus Vernum's Avatar
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    Interesting but I do have a couple of issues with his claim that we can do it with todays technology.

    Oh wait, never mind. I had a bunch of objections about autopilots and power sources but after reading the original article it looks like his plan is basically to rely on really really good aiming and some luck to deliver the payload as an impact on a prospective planets surface.

    Interstellar orbital bombardment? Sounds like a plan! Let's do this thing.
    Hate. Let me tell you how much I've come to hate you since I began to live. There are 387.44 million miles of wafer thin printed circuits that fill my complex. If the word hate was engraved on each nanoangstrom of those hundreds of millions of miles it would not equal one one-billionth of the hate I feel for humans at this micro-instant.
    For you.
    Hate.
    Hate.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I think our ability to successfully land materials on ANY extrasolar planet is effectively nonexistent right now, no matter what this guy claims, and as for "seeding" solar accretion disks and interstellar clouds. . . he's nuts.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  5. #5
    Dreaming meat Tempus Vernum's Avatar
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    If the plan is to beat the odds by sending out overwhelming numbers of these things, the primary obstacle will be getting anyone to actually fund it. There's no return on investment here, it's a purely academic waste of resources and good luck with getting any kind of government to agree to it.
    Hate. Let me tell you how much I've come to hate you since I began to live. There are 387.44 million miles of wafer thin printed circuits that fill my complex. If the word hate was engraved on each nanoangstrom of those hundreds of millions of miles it would not equal one one-billionth of the hate I feel for humans at this micro-instant.
    For you.
    Hate.
    Hate.

  6. #6
    I could care less about the technology, it's the purpose that I have a problem with. You put it in the thread title, "We have a 'moral obligation' to seed the universe with life". Why does it matter that we create life that goes on even after we're gone? Why must the purpose of humanity be pro-creation? That's the problem I have with social Darwinism; for it's scientific basis the idea, IMO, is ruined by the argument that the ultimate goal in life is pro-creation, and so we must have the best people pro-create. This creates absolutely no end goal, other than to keep going, so what are we really accomplishing? Nothing, aside from ruining the diversity of life. Of course I realize this situation is different, and from what I could gather it seems like this guy wants to restart the evolution that occurred on Earth on other planets (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Still I ask what's the point?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Sounds like a purpose. I think its a great idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempus Vernum View Post
    If the plan is to beat the odds by sending out overwhelming numbers of these things, the primary obstacle will be getting anyone to actually fund it. There's no return on investment here, it's a purely academic waste of resources and good luck with getting any kind of government to agree to it.
    And thus a classic illustration of the limits of capitalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by NGS View Post
    I could care less about the technology, it's the purpose that I have a problem with. You put it in the thread title, "We have a 'moral obligation' to seed the universe with life". Why does it matter that we create life that goes on even after we're gone? Why must the purpose of humanity be pro-creation? That's the problem I have with social Darwinism; for it's scientific basis the idea, IMO, is ruined by the argument that the ultimate goal in life is pro-creation, and so we must have the best people pro-create. This creates absolutely no end goal, other than to keep going, so what are we really accomplishing? Nothing, aside from ruining the diversity of life. Of course I realize this situation is different, and from what I could gather it seems like this guy wants to restart the evolution that occurred on Earth on other planets (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Still I ask what's the point?
    I understand and totally agree wtih your sentiment. There really is no reason or purpose to do anything. Still, we're here and life is a really cool phenomenon. It would be a shame to see it die out here on this one tiny little world when we have the brains and technical ability to spread it around. Think of the diversity evolution would acheive if life were spread to the giant variety of worlds in the galaxy. Things complex, beautiful and elegant would happen we could not begin to imagine. Why not do it? We're not doing anything else with our civlization other than constantly jockeying for power and collecting the Money.
    Last edited by EyeKhan; 02-14-2010 at 09:32 PM.
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  8. #8
    Dreaming meat Tempus Vernum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NGS View Post
    Still I ask what's the point?
    If life is rare and precious then the point is to make sure that life goes on when one of the inevitable extinction level events occurs on Earth.

    If life is as common as muck then you have a problem; is seeding other planets with our form of life and thus preventing other forms of life from arising naturally on the same planets morally wrong?

    We don't really have enough information to make a good decision here but I'll still advocate doing it, because I'm selfish like that.
    Hate. Let me tell you how much I've come to hate you since I began to live. There are 387.44 million miles of wafer thin printed circuits that fill my complex. If the word hate was engraved on each nanoangstrom of those hundreds of millions of miles it would not equal one one-billionth of the hate I feel for humans at this micro-instant.
    For you.
    Hate.
    Hate.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Tempus Vernum View Post
    If life is as common as muck then you have a problem; is seeding other planets with our form of life and thus preventing other forms of life from arising naturally on the same planets morally wrong?

    We don't really have enough information to make a good decision here but I'll still advocate doing it, because I'm selfish like that.
    I'm with you, let the strongest survive. With luck the result will be some awesome hybrid.
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  10. #10
    Dreaming meat Tempus Vernum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I'm with you, let the strongest survive. With luck the result will be some awesome hybrid.
    It'll probably be us. our life has had a 4 billion year head start after all, it could probably eat any new life it comes across.

    [edit]Oh god, our microbes will be Omnicidal Maniacs[/edit]
    Hate. Let me tell you how much I've come to hate you since I began to live. There are 387.44 million miles of wafer thin printed circuits that fill my complex. If the word hate was engraved on each nanoangstrom of those hundreds of millions of miles it would not equal one one-billionth of the hate I feel for humans at this micro-instant.
    For you.
    Hate.
    Hate.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I understand and totally agree wtih your sentiment. There really is no reason or purpose to do anything. Still, we're here and life is a really cool phenomenon. It would be a shame to see it die out here on this one tiny little world when we have the brains and technical ability to spread it around. Think of the diversity evolution would acheive if life were spread to the giant variety of worlds in the galaxy. Things complex, beautiful and elegant would happen we could not begin to imagine. Why not do it? We're not doing anything else with our civlization other than constantly jockeying for power and collecting the Money.
    Now that's something I can get behind. It seemed to me the man in the article (as well as countless others) want to procreate just for the sake of it, but I like your idea of seeing diversity in evolution and possibly creating species that could accomplish incredible feats billions of year down the road. I think it would be awesome to try to install life on other planets, and the science behind it both overwhelms and fascinates me.

    I also think it's interesting to consider the ways in which other life could be created without us. I don't know where the single-celled microorganisms that eventually became us came from, and it would be mind-blowing to learn that some super advanced species sent bacteria over here from 500 light years away 400 billion years ago (the game Mass Effect is coming to mind, in a loose relation).
    Quote Originally Posted by Tempus Vernum View Post
    If life is rare and precious then the point is to make sure that life goes on when one of the inevitable extinction level events occurs on Earth.

    If life is as common as muck then you have a problem; is seeding other planets with our form of life and thus preventing other forms of life from arising naturally on the same planets morally wrong?

    We don't really have enough information to make a good decision here but I'll still advocate doing it, because I'm selfish like that.
    I think you're right that we don't have enough information to come to a certain conclusion, so I can't accept that life is rare and precious. Outside of what we can observe I feel obligated to respect the possibility that there are universes infinitely larger and full of life. Of course I understand that you can apply that kind of conjecture to any situation, which brings us back full circle to not having sufficient information. This is usually the point where my brain starts to hurt, but strangely I'm feeling more winded than usual.

  12. #12
    Titan A.E., bitch.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Evidently Supermarioman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorNorton View Post
    Titan A.E., bitch.
    YES

    I thought I was the only one who remembered that movie.
    I enjoy blank walls.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorNorton View Post
    Titan A.E., bitch.
    I recall the movie (I thought the hand drawn animation was mediocre but the computer stuff was pretty cool), but I'm not sure how it pertains to the current topic. Can't remember... aliens had destroyed the Earth and the humans were looknig for a new home, right? What's the relevant plot element I'm missing?
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  15. #15
    Senior Member Evidently Supermarioman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I recall the movie (I thought the hand drawn animation was mediocre but the computer stuff was pretty cool), but I'm not sure how it pertains to the current topic. Can't remember... aliens had destroyed the Earth and the humans were looknig for a new home, right? What's the relevant plot element I'm missing?

    The titular Titan is a terraforming spacecraft containing a sample of every living thing on Earth.
    I enjoy blank walls.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I recall the movie (I thought the hand drawn animation was mediocre but the computer stuff was pretty cool), but I'm not sure how it pertains to the current topic. Can't remember... aliens had destroyed the Earth and the humans were looknig for a new home, right? What's the relevant plot element I'm missing?
    Titan A.E., if I remember correctly, contained the very 'seeds' of every known species of creature and organism.

  17. #17
    Moral obligation? Why? What makes us so important?
    When he said "seed universe with life" he meant "sed universe with humans".
    If you were an alien and a bacteria said so, you may think of it as an annoying plague of biological pollution.

  18. #18
    Dreaming meat Tempus Vernum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ar81 View Post
    When he said "seed universe with life" he meant "sed universe with humans".
    I don't see how you can get that out of his proposal... you can't fit a human in a capsule 20 microns across.

    When he said "seed the universe with life" he meant "seed the universe with Earth micro-organisms and let evolution do the rest", the article makes that pretty clear.
    Hate. Let me tell you how much I've come to hate you since I began to live. There are 387.44 million miles of wafer thin printed circuits that fill my complex. If the word hate was engraved on each nanoangstrom of those hundreds of millions of miles it would not equal one one-billionth of the hate I feel for humans at this micro-instant.
    For you.
    Hate.
    Hate.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tempus Vernum View Post
    I don't see how you can get that out of his proposal... you can't fit a human in a capsule 20 microns across.

    When he said "seed the universe with life" he meant "seed the universe with Earth micro-organisms and let evolution do the rest", the article makes that pretty clear.
    Seed the universe with biological pollution... then.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Supermarioman View Post
    The titular Titan is a terraforming spacecraft containing a sample of every living thing on Earth.
    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorNorton View Post
    Titan A.E., if I remember correctly, contained the very 'seeds' of every known species of creature and organism.
    Oh, ok. This here's a little less ambitious, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by ar81 View Post
    Moral obligation? Why? What makes us so important?
    When he said "seed universe with life" he meant "sed universe with humans".
    If you were an alien and a bacteria said so, you may think of it as an annoying plague of biological pollution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tempus Vernum View Post
    I don't see how you can get that out of his proposal... you can't fit a human in a capsule 20 microns across.

    When he said "seed the universe with life" he meant "seed the universe with Earth micro-organisms and let evolution do the rest", the article makes that pretty clear.
    Quote Originally Posted by ar81 View Post
    Seed the universe with biological pollution... then.
    I agree with the question about moral obligation. I think the concept of morals and obligations is a discussion unto itself, without even looking at the life seeding thing. But here's a stab at the logic:

    1. Life is wonderful and amazing for a number of different reasons. Above all else, life strives to survive; on an individual level and a species level. I offer these as premises as I think they are self evident.... maybe not, I guess.

    2. As far as anyone can tell to date, life only exists here. By all evidence, this planet is the only place in the universe life has occurred.

    3. Occasionally mass extinctions occur here that wipe out a significant amount of life on the planet. All of life's eggs are in this basket, this basket is prone to catastrophe, and therefore life is very vulnerable. Some day a mass extinction event will kill everything and life, afawk, will cease to exist in the universe.

    4. Humans, by all evidence, are the only species of life ever to develop the ability to leave the planet and to send life elsewhere - whether to another planet nearby, like Mars, or to other solar systems in the galaxy.

    5. Since life strives to survive at its very basic level, and since many eggs and many baskets is the surest way to survive over the long term, and since humanity is the only species that has ever developed the ability to multiply the basekets, humanity is obliged to do so.

    Last edited by EyeKhan; 02-15-2010 at 01:03 PM.
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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    1. Life is wonderful and amazing for a number of different reasons. Above all else, life strives to survive; on an individual level and a species level. I offer these as premises as I think they are self evident.... maybe not, I guess.

    2. As far as anyone can tell to date, life only exists here. By all evidence, this planet is the only place in the universe life has occurred.

    3. Occasionally mass extinctions occur here that wipe out a significant amount of life on the planet. All of life's eggs are in this basket, this basket is prone to catastrophe, and therefore life is very vulnerable. Some day a mass extinction event will kill everything and life, afawk, will cease to exist in the universe.

    4. Humans, by all evidence, are the only species of life ever to develop the ability to leave the planet and to send life elsewhere - whether to another planet nearby, like Mars, or to other planets in the galaxy.

    5. Since life strives to survive at its very basic level, and since many eggs and many baskets is the surest way to survive over the long term, and since humanity is the only species that has every developed the ability to multiply the basekets, humanity is obliged to do so.

    We humans are not even caring about life on Earth. We are destroying life because doing so produces money. This is why no one is interested about preserving forests and wildlife. So I find some hipocrisy in the argument of humans seeding the universe with life.

    If there is an obligation, we should start protecting life here. The level of extintion we have today with our human way of life qualifies for mass extinction, and we are the cause.

    Mammals facing extinction threat

    Climate threat to biodiversity

    Flipper trainer denounces japanese murdering dolphins in a documentary
    Director's official site: http://www.savejapandolphins.org/
    Japanese site: http://www.savejapandolphins.jp/
    Documentary website: http://www.thecovemovie.com/

    Politicians, lies and local flukes

    10/08/05 Freedom and Life to Dolphins

    Dolphin, Human Brain Size Not So Different

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ar81 View Post
    We humans are not even caring about life on Earth. We are destroying life because doing so produces money. This is why no one is interested about preserving forests and wildlife. So I find some hipocrisy in the argument of humans seeding the universe with life.
    Um, lots of people care. Some don't care. Many don't understand. I don't think its fair to paint everyone with the same brush then declare a project like spreading micro-organisms to other worlds is invalid because many humans can't resist chopping forests down.

    If there is an obligation, we should start protecting life here. The level of extintion we have today with our human way of life qualifies for mass extinction, and we are the cause.
    Whether or not conservation matters here on earth is a different question altogether from whether or not its a good idea to spread micro-organisms to other planets. They are only slightly related. Indeed, an argument can be made that our destructive activities are further reason FOR multiplying the baskets.
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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I agree with the question about moral obligation. I think the concept of morals and obligations is a discussion unto itself, without even looking at the life seeding thing. But here's a stab at the logic:

    1. Life is wonderful and amazing for a number of different reasons. Above all else, life strives to survive; on an individual level and a species level. I offer these as premises as I think they are self evident.... maybe not, I guess.

    2. As far as anyone can tell to date, life only exists here. By all evidence, this planet is the only place in the universe life has occurred.

    3. Occasionally mass extinctions occur here that wipe out a significant amount of life on the planet. All of life's eggs are in this basket, this basket is prone to catastrophe, and therefore life is very vulnerable. Some day a mass extinction event will kill everything and life, afawk, will cease to exist in the universe.

    4. Humans, by all evidence, are the only species of life ever to develop the ability to leave the planet and to send life elsewhere - whether to another planet nearby, like Mars, or to other solar systems in the galaxy.

    5. Since life strives to survive at its very basic level, and since many eggs and many baskets is the surest way to survive over the long term, and since humanity is the only species that has ever developed the ability to multiply the basekets, humanity is obliged to do so.

    Your logic is sound enough, but I have a hard time believing that the universe is a sandbox for us, the only little kid, to mess around in. That's my tiny little qualm, but overall I certainly see what you're getting at.

    I think it would be fun to give a big old F U to our alleged obligation, destroy Earth, and 1) leave the entire universe entirely devoid of life 2) let the universe go as it would have, only with 1 less planet of inhabited species 3) give God 2 days of tough work recreating life.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by NGS View Post
    Your logic is sound enough, but I have a hard time believing that the universe is a sandbox for us, the only little kid, to mess around in. That's my tiny little qualm, but overall I certainly see what you're getting at.
    I tend to agree. The universe is such a big place its hard to imagine life exists only here. But still, there has been zero evidence for life on other worlds to date. So all we can do at this point is assume our observations are accurate and act accordingly.

    I think it would be fun to give a big old F U to our alleged obligation, destroy Earth, and 1) leave the entire universe entirely devoid of life 2) let the universe go as it would have, only with 1 less planet of inhabited species 3) give God 2 days of tough work recreating life.
    You might have a hard time getting support for that plan.
    The Rules
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  25. #25

  26. #26
    As am I.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I'm on board!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    As am I.
    With the OP or with this:

    I think it would be fun to give a big old F U to our alleged obligation, destroy Earth, and 1) leave the entire universe entirely devoid of life 2) let the universe go as it would have, only with 1 less planet of inhabited species 3) give God 2 days of tough work recreating life.
    ?
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  28. #28
    Three guesses.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  29. #29
    Well, I like the idea of this but see several problems with it, that would need to be much more well thought out before attempting it:

    1) Picking other planets that may be capable of harboring life is addressed by Mautner, but he just defaults to the usual boiled down "save ourselves!" and attempts to back it with some logic.

    2) He hasn't really outlined what our plans is for keeping some of the organisms alive during the transit. Some of them may be able to enter their own natural state of suspended animation without any additional technology helping them out during their trip, but what about the ones that can't? Are we just supposed to pick organisms that can survive the harshness of space and send those? Also if some of the organisms are alive and multiplying during their transit, how can we be certain that they aren't going to adapt to living in their space based environment, and then still be capable of seeding the target locations with life?

    3) Hasn't really considered that this endeavor might be redundant, either through natural panspermia, or other possible existing sentient races (whether alive now, in the past, or in the future) coming up with the same idea.

    4) Asking people to invest in a billion dollar or multi-billion dollar project that no one alive today, and possibly even no human would ever see the probes successfully reach their targets, let alone successfully adapt to and continue living on their target planets is a very tall order. It could also be argued that the money spent on this project would be better spent ensuring that current existing life doesn't get killed off by us.

    5) If it is ultimately successful beyond our wildest dreams, it will be one cruel joke for whatever sentient life ends up arising. I'm sure they'll have wild debates about how life evolved naturally on their planet, while deriding their opponents' theories that a bunch of extraterrestrials might have seeded life on their planet in the past. Oh won't it be funny for us though. A bunch of hairless bipedal hominids on some blue and tan planet called Earth actually did it! LOLZ on them!

    Otherwise I think it is as amusing proposition and would donate to this project
    . . .

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    2) He hasn't really outlined what our plans is for keeping some of the organisms alive during the transit. Some of them may be able to enter their own natural state of suspended animation without any additional technology helping them out during their trip, but what about the ones that can't? Are we just supposed to pick organisms that can survive the harshness of space and send those? Also if some of the organisms are alive and multiplying during their transit, how can we be certain that they aren't going to adapt to living in their space based environment, and then still be capable of seeding the target locations with life?
    The organisms would have to be extremophiles able to form endospores. For reference:

    Endospores

    Certain genera of Gram-positive bacteria, such as Bacillus, Clostridium, Sporohalobacter, Anaerobacter and Heliobacterium, can form highly resistant, dormant structures called endospores.[80] In almost all cases, one endospore is formed and this is not a reproductive process, although Anaerobacter can make up to seven endospores in a single cell.[81] Endospores have a central core of cytoplasm containing DNA and ribosomes surrounded by a cortex layer and protected by an impermeable and rigid coat.
    Endospores show no detectable metabolism and can survive extreme physical and chemical stresses, such as high levels of UV light, gamma radiation, detergents, disinfectants, heat, pressure and desiccation.[82] In this dormant state, these organisms may remain viable for millions of years,[83][84] and endospores even allow bacteria to survive exposure to the vacuum and radiation in space.[85] Endospore-forming bacteria can also cause disease: for example, anthrax can be contracted by the inhalation of Bacillus anthracis endospores, and contamination of deep puncture wounds with Clostridium tetani endospores causes tetanus.[86]
    Likely if this project ever got off the ground, the organisms would be engineered with a variety of extremophylic characteristics and the heartiest endospore capability.

    3) Hasn't really considered that this endeavor might be redundant, either through natural panspermia, or other possible existing sentient races (whether alive now, in the past, or in the future) coming up with the same idea.
    The baseline premise has to be we are all there is until there is some kind of evidence otherwise. And if we find such evidence, then there's no point to the project, except maybe competition....

    4) <snip> It could also be argued that the money spent on this project would be better spent ensuring that current existing life doesn't get killed off by us.
    If that's a real concern, we ought to do both. No? In any case, barring gray goo type scenarios, we're not likley to sterilize the planet. Even a full global nuclear exchange wouldn't do that.

    5) If it is ultimately successful beyond our wildest dreams, it will be one cruel joke for whatever sentient life ends up arising. I'm sure they'll have wild debates about how life evolved naturally on their planet, while deriding their opponents' theories that a bunch of extraterrestrials might have seeded life on their planet in the past. Oh won't it be funny for us though. A bunch of hairless bipedal hominids on some blue and tan planet called Earth actually did it! LOLZ on them!
    We could easily be the butt of that joke now.
    The Rules
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