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Thread: Poverty As Character Flaw

  1. #1

    Default Poverty As Character Flaw

    This comes out of the RomneyRyan12 thread which is now embroiled in argument over whether one can dislike what Obama said at some point more or less than Romney's 47% claim and not be a rabid partisan on one side or the other.

    The most deeply troubling (IMHO) point of Romney's 47% speech, the one that is most arguable and seems to appeal to Conservatives on a most visceral level, is that Poverty Is a Character Flaw.

    Who agrees with this and why? Do you think it applies to all the poor, some of the poor, just a troublesome few? Is it just the American poor or does it apply to those in poverty everywhere?

    If you believe this, how do you put this into context with the fact that all human societies are and have been structured with lots of poor(er) people. Do you square this with the belief that most human beings for all of history have had the character flaws that lead to poverty? And is this an inherited trait, since the children of wealthy tend to stay wealthy and children of poor tend to stay poor....?

    Some might approach this as a simple yes/no question. The more thoughful might say it's chicken/ egg but the result is the same. Or they might say it's true for some but not others. If you think it's categorically NOT true, please explain. Do you really believe there's no poor character, lifestyle, behavior associated with the reasons that result in people's poverty? Why should people who do gigantically stupid things get help correcting the consequences of that stupidity?
    The Rules
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  2. #2
    I wouldn't call it a character flaw more an inevitable outcome of our overly generous and overly complicated welfare state. It shouldn't be too surprising if you make work not pay and not working pay that people choose to take advantage of it.

    While the flawed Jerry Springer/Jeremy Kyle types deserve their share of the responsibility (what you call blame) for their life choices even more so too do the left-wingers who ever more want to create a system whereby nobody is ever responsible (besides workers).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #3
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Right. Extreme stereotyping and flinging of exaggerations in 3 ... 2 ...

    Oh, damn, Rand beat me to the punch.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  4. #4
    I notice that virtually no one here is living below the poverty line, and nearly everyone is either in college or has a good job. Why do you suppose that is?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #5
    Luck. Pure luck and nothing else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    The most deeply troubling (IMHO) point of Romney's 47% speech, the one that is most arguable and seems to appeal to Conservatives on a most visceral level, is that Poverty Is a Character Flaw.
    One theory: this attitude helps supports the idea that SUCCESS and wealth reflects great character.

  7. #7
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I notice that virtually no one here is living below the poverty line, and nearly everyone is either in college or has a good job. Why do you suppose that is?
    You're not actually suggesting that our forum sample is somehow representative for something?

    And that coming from someone who's supposed to know about statistics and how to wield them. Reminds me of the doctor who proved that vaccines caused autism due to clever selection of his sample group.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    You're not actually suggesting that our forum sample is somehow representative for something?

    And that coming from someone who's supposed to know about statistics and how to wield them. Reminds me of the doctor who proved that vaccines caused autism due to clever selection of his sample group.
    No that's not at all what he said. Can I pull one from the Minx-playbook and say can't you read?

    The question is why do you suppose that the people who make up our sample go/went to college etc? Were each of us just lucky or is there another explanation?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #9
    Erm, the claim isn't about people here being representative of the general population (I certainly didn't claim that there are no poor people in the US because there are no poor people here ). The claim is that people here have certain traits or have done certain things, as a result of which no one is in poverty.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #10
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    So, stuff like socio-economic background or simply bad luck does not exist? Y'know, those factors which are outside your sphere of control but still have a major impact on the course of your life?

    Oh, I forgot, for Rand luck does not exist. It's all determined by sheer will.

    Too bad that his precious free will doesn't actually exist. At least not in the form he's thinking. That's the actual fun part of this: Due to brain chemistry he's incapable of perceiving that his brain chemistry is hindering him from perceiving exactly this fact.

    The claim is that people here have certain traits or have done certain things, as a result of which no one is in poverty.


    Right. And that is not a representative claim to support your argument. Maybe, Rand, you should try that reading stuff yourself. Representative as in: "If only everybody had those certain traits or had done certain things, no one would be in poverty." And don't even try to suggest you're not using that broad of a brush, guys.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I wouldn't call it a character flaw more an inevitable outcome of our overly generous and overly complicated welfare state. It shouldn't be too surprising if you make work not pay and not working pay that people choose to take advantage of it.

    While the flawed Jerry Springer/Jeremy Kyle types deserve their share of the responsibility (what you call blame) for their life choices even more so too do the left-wingers who ever more want to create a system whereby nobody is ever responsible (besides workers).
    That may be true for the UK, but not necessarily the US. We don't have "The Dole" like you do. Americans have to be looking/training for work to qualify for assistance, and it has time limits. Unemployment Insurance only goes to those who've paid into the program while they were employed. Ditto for Social Security.

    SNAP has more people enrolled now, because the Great Recession was so wide and deep, and once middle-class workers became the working-poor. Most of the millions using SNAP are children and seniors. Same for Medicaid recipients.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    So, stuff like socio-economic background or simply bad luck does not exist? Y'know, those factors which are outside your sphere of control but still have a major impact on the course of your life?

    Oh, I forgot, for Rand luck does not exist. It's all determined by sheer will.
    "You make your own luck" - did your education come from luck only or did you ever do homework etc? I believe Liverpool were unlucky to lose to United a few days ago but I'm not going to curse the moon and stars because the sun was coming out of Uranus.
    Too bad that his precious free will doesn't actually exist. At least not in the form he's thinking. That's the actual fun part of this: Due to brain chemistry he's incapable of perceiving that his brain chemistry is hindering him from perceiving exactly this fact.
    So you believe in predestination? Oh well, in which case why should you bother trying anything or voting or making any decisions? Luck and destiny will take care of them all.
    Right. And that is not a representative claim to support your argument. Maybe, Rand, you should try that reading stuff yourself. Representative as in: "If only everybody had those certain traits or had done certain things, no one would be in poverty." And don't even try to suggest you're not using that broad of a brush, guys.
    Interesting you quoted Loki yet keep referring to me. Oh well.

    Again I suppose you have no responsibility for anything you've ever done in your life then?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #13
    If poverty was simply a character trait, we would not be able to measure social mobility as consistently as we can.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I notice that virtually no one here is living below the poverty line, and nearly everyone is either in college or has a good job. Why do you suppose that is?
    How many people on this forum do you think were born to parents that do not place great value in a solid education?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  15. #15
    I think the origins of this community (forums for PC games) makes that a pretty clear case of selection bias.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I think the origins of this community (forums for PC games) makes that a pretty clear case of selection bias.
    Computer gamers are guaranteed to have parents that value education?

    I suppose Minx is entirely right; you never hear of someone being the first in their family to go to college/university.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #17
    They're a signifier that you have access to a certain amount of disposal income, either your own or your parents.

    I suppose Minx is entirely right; you never hear of someone being the first in their family to go to college/university.
    The fact that certain families never had someone go to college/university until you heard about it just then doesn't tell you something?
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Computer gamers are guaranteed to have parents that value education?

    I suppose Minx is entirely right; you never hear of someone being the first in their family to go to college/university.
    I am the first in my extended family to go to university

    I don't know what that means vis a vis my rabid leftism

    Bizarro fuck you got mine?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I suppose Minx is entirely right; you never hear of someone being the first in their family to go to college/university.
    I was.

    This is also the internet, and I don't believe half of what half of ya'll say, question if half even exist, and always question if half of ya'll are astroturfing trolls.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I am the first in my extended family to go to university

    I don't know what that means vis a vis my rabid leftism

    Bizarro fuck you got mine?
    Mooch
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Mooch
    In Socialist Scandahoovia? Everyone is!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    I was.

    This is also the internet, and I don't believe half of what half of ya'll say, question if half even exist, and always question is half of ya'll are astroturfing trolls.
    what
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  23. #23
    typo is=if



    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  24. #24
    Hi Harry13.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    In Socialist Scandahoovia? Everyone is!
    Still, kudos to your precursor germinal cells on their successful struggle to achieve Finnishness
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    The fact that certain families never had someone go to college/university until you heard about it just then doesn't tell you something?
    The fact that plenty of poor people do go university doesn't tell you something?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Erm, the claim isn't about people here being representative of the general population (I certainly didn't claim that there are no poor people in the US because there are no poor people here ). The claim is that people here have certain traits or have done certain things, as a result of which no one is in poverty.
    My understanding is that there are several posters who are or have recently been below the poverty line. Some for an extended period of time.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  28. #28
    Are we counting recent college grads who just happened to finish college in the midst of a major recession? Or are you referring to Munchkin?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #29
    I've been out of college for 6 years, I've shared my stories of government issued cellphones, food stamps, and health insurance.
    I'm clear of that now, but I wouldn't say its because of finishing college.


    Not that being a recent college grad, or entering the workforce during a recession, stopped romney from counting those people as part of the 47% who refuses to care for themselves
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  30. #30
    Would you have the position you do now without a college degree?
    Hope is the denial of reality

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