Wasted Money

[earthJoker]

There are cheaper alternatives in the less-than-legal market, though.

We have quite low taxes on alc currently, so I think it's not bad.

Though at some point if you get richer you get invited to more parties with free booze, so it's not you paying for it. Which also has the most actual waste (if the drinks are free anyway, you're not 100% sure what glass is yours, just get a new one - you end up throwing a lot away).

And who pays the party? Not the poor.

OK I admit sometimes it's companies who pay for parties, but that's still wasted.

[Flixy]

We have quite low taxes on alc currently, so I think it's not bad.

I don't think alcohol is very expensive here, but weed is for example cheaper, GHB is apparently dirt cheap (and AFAIK has similar affects as alcohol), etc...

And who pays the party? Not the poor.

OK I admit sometimes it's companies who pay for parties, but that's still wasted.

Sponsors, always.

[GGT]

Why do liberals always seek to appease people. Terrorists attack us, lets apologize and be nice to them. Poor people might have idle hands, and that's dangerous better give them free cigs. Boggle. You don't pay off people so they don't do bad things, you put the boot down on them if they become violent. Appeasement doesn't work. Do you think poor communities have more or less violent crime?

Why do YOU always conflate so many issues...and pose as a Conservative at the same time?

Oh and you need social support to quit? Just don't smoke. Its quite simple. Don't light up and put the death stick in your mouth. Of course poor people are more likely to use tobacco. Why is that? Liberals like to think its a "lack of education" or some other fluff. The reality is that the poor tend to have poorer impulse control and don't delay gratification. The same reason they smoke (despite the monetary cost) is the reason they are poor! Stupidity, shortsightedness and inability to plan for the future. You want to enable that behavior and you want the producers of society to pay for it. Pathetic.

Yeah, Education is just fluff. It's only those poor people who can't control their impulses or seek instant gratification. It must be because they're stupid...oh, wait. No, it's because they're liberals!

[Lewkowski]

Yeah, Education is just fluff. It's only those poor people who can't control their impulses or seek instant gratification. It must be because they're stupid...oh, wait. No, it's because they're liberals!

Claiming that poor people can't stop smoking because of a lack of education IS fluff. Why don't you tell me why you think poor people are more likely to smoke?

[EyeKhan]

Why don't you tell me why you think poor people are more likely to smoke?

I think this is a good question, one that I've never been able to figure out. What do you think?

[Flixy]

Smoking, I'm not sure, but alcohol and drugs have a lot of escapism in it. The shittier your life is, the nicer it is to be numbed to it.

[Timbuk2]

Down to education? The dangers of smoking are learned. The offspring of the better off are better educated.

Simplistic, but it has to be a factor.

[Loki]

People in a lot of newly developed countries are more likely to smoke than their parents, because it's the cool/prestigious thing to do.

[Flixy]

Down to education? The dangers of smoking are learned. The offspring of the better off are better educated.

Simplistic, but it has to be a factor.

I think it's a fairly small factor, to be honest. I mean, packages say smoking kills in pretty huge letters, there's no way you can claim ignorance, unless you can't read I suppose.

[Ominous Gamer]

start young and you aren't seeing the packages to read them, you're bumming individual cigs. addiction is a hell of a thing too. you get to the point where you convince yourself that it won't happen to you; somebody of somebody of somebody lived just fine and smoked twenty packs a day. Just look at how many things Lewk has managed to convince himself of that go against common facts.

[LittleFuzzy]

Down to education? The dangers of smoking are learned. The offspring of the better off are better educated.

Simplistic, but it has to be a factor.

I don't agree. Yes it has to be learned but it's not something taught primarily in schools which is what we're referring to when we talk about how well a person is educated. Rather this subject is taught via media. Advertisements, labelling, etc. And it is pervasive.

[Aimless]

These studies should of course be taken with generous helpings of salt, but:

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...ction+genetics

[Lewkowski]

I think this is a good question, one that I've never been able to figure out. What do you think?

Because people who are poor tend to be people who don't plan ahead and don't delay gratification. Its the simplest explanation, though people dislike it because it smacks of personal responsibility. EVERYONE knows cigs are bad for you so education just isn't a factor.

[Hazir]

People in a lot of newly developed countries are more likely to smoke than their parents, because it's the cool/prestigious thing to do.

I have this distinct feeling that in US pop culture the cigarette is cool again because it's so exquisitly counter-culture.

[GGT]

Claiming that poor people can't stop smoking because of a lack of education IS fluff. Why don't you tell me why you think poor people are more likely to smoke?

Controlling impulses and delaying gratification are taught/learned behaviors. All kids and teens make dumb decisions, and think they're invincible. But kids growing up in poverty face cultural problems and pressures that are part of that poverty. Whether it's not enough adults in their lives, or bad role models, idle time on their hands, living paycheck-to-paycheck....or constant daily struggles of a really crappy life that most of us here can't even imagine.

Poor kids are more likely to engage in all sorts of risky behavior. Maybe it's too hard to "imagine" a long, healthy, productive and happy life -- so they focus on here and now, fitting in with their circle of friends, trying to feel better and/or numb their pain?

But you don't really care to figure out what causes poverty, or why poor people act in ways they do, in order to help them get out of poverty or break the cycles of poverty. That would mean you'd have to do more than just whine about how they're taking from the producers of society, from your holier-than-thou perch, preaching about character, put that BOOT down, cast dispersions, and walk away.

[Lewkowski]

Controlling impulses and delaying gratification are taught/learned behaviors. All kids and teens make dumb decisions, and think they're invincible. But kids growing up in poverty face cultural problems and pressures that are part of that poverty. Whether it's not enough adults in their lives, or bad role models, idle time on their hands, living paycheck-to-paycheck....or constant daily struggles of a really crappy life that most of us here can't even imagine.

Poor kids are more likely to engage in all sorts of risky behavior. Maybe it's too hard to "imagine" a long, healthy, productive and happy life -- so they focus on here and now, fitting in with their circle of friends, trying to feel better and/or numb their pain?

But you don't really care to figure out what causes poverty, or why poor people act in ways they do, in order to help them get out of poverty or break the cycles of poverty. That would mean you'd have to do more than just whine about how they're taking from the producers of society, from your holier-than-thou perch, preaching about character, put that BOOT down, cast dispersions, and walk away.

Enablers do more to keep poor people down then those who suggest tough love. Until someone realizes THEY are the problem they cannot change. When they realize that their past actions are the reasons for their failure they can see the value of changing their future actions and then succeed. By saying that economic failure is due to circumstances beyond their control you keep poor people poor and dependent on the government. Also a big base for the Democratic party.

[GGT]

Babies, toddlers, young children, tweens, teens and young adults ARE living in circumstances beyond their control.

[Lewkowski]

Babies, toddlers, young children, tweens, teens and young adults ARE living in circumstances beyond their control.

Oh yes because young adults can't possibly make rational decisions? Please. No wonder your a liberal you don't think anyone could possibility control themselves and actually make intelligent decisions.

[Aimless]

I've always wondered why poor people are so bad at accepting delayed gratification. Does anyone know?

[Aimless]

Oh yes because young adults can't possibly make rational decisions? Please. No wonder your a liberal you don't think anyone could possibility control themselves and actually make intelligent decisions.

I've always wondered why age is taken into account when it comes to voting, driving, drinking, punishment and insurance. Does anyone know?

[Loki]

I've always wondered why poor people are so bad at accepting delayed gratification. Does anyone know?

Selection bias. Not being able to delay gratification is why they're poor (which is not to say that all poor people can't delay gratification).

[Aimless]

Selection bias. Not being able to delay gratification is why they're poor (which is not to say that all poor people can't delay gratification).

I was wondering more about the "why" of delayed gratification. I also wonder how it is for people who start out as poor kids. Wiggin's discussion of the thousand bee stings comes to mind

[Loki]

Goes back to the personality faults mentioned in the other thread.

[Lewkowski]

I've always wondered why poor people are so bad at accepting delayed gratification. Does anyone know?

What Loki said. They are poor because of not delaying gratification. Blah Blah usual disclaimer this isn't for every single person that is poor.

[GGT]

I was wondering more about the "why" of delayed gratification. I also wonder how it is for people who start out as poor kids. Wiggin's discussion of the thousand bee stings comes to mind

There are tons of studies confirming that the first five years of life are crucial. Nutrition and environment (stimulation plus comfort/safety factors), in combination with genetic makeup, prepare the brain's development for the next decade, and beyond. The pre-frontal cortex -- decision making, behavioral monitor -- isn't fully formed until around age 20. That's why childrens' healthcare, Head Start, school meals, SNAP, and after-school enrichment programs are important for poor families.

Food insecurity or crappy nutrition, social problems like crime, violence or neglect are all thought to actually change the way a mind develops. Even contact sports at young ages, especially football, are being studied for its impacts on the young brain.


Bee stings?

[Tontoe]

I was wondering more about the "why" of delayed gratification. I also wonder how it is for people who start out as poor kids. Wiggin's discussion of the thousand bee stings comes to mind

There are a few things that I would imagine are important besides the relentless drumbeat of "poor people are lazy slobs" from some of our forumgoers. First, delayed gratification pays off less. It's much easier to wipe out savings when they're low. Being poor, even if our hypothetical poor person saves every penny, they are far more vulnerable to shocks such as medical bills or car repairs that wipe out any gains they've made. Short term gratification means that they at least get something they want for their money while they have it. Yes, it also means they can't pay off the former but a) they may not have enough to avoid crippling debt anyway and b) certain services such as charity or friends and family only kick in once one is truly out of options.

The pay off is also much more distant. As much as we would like to pretend that every virtuous soul is motivated only by hard work and self improvement, many people actually want to enjoy their lives. That often takes money. Asking someone to live the life of the idealized hard working poor for decades to buy a home is a bit rich when most of the people doing the asking can indulge their everyday desires with little restriction or can reasonably expect to be able to do so in the near future. Try avoiding that extra latte, not going out with friends, and not paying your cable bill for a few months and ask yourself if that's really the way you want to live.

That's not to say the poor aren't partially responsible for the own situation, but let's not pretend that we're operating on a strictly merit based system that is so effective that we can demonize the well sifted poor folk. Their are other factors to consider and they do matter.

[Timbuk2]

Useful post, and nicely put.

[Khendraja'aro]

*cue the "But tey are teh stoopid!" comments*