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Thread: Nekkidness in public - a fundamental right?

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    Default Nekkidness in public - a fundamental right?

    Naked Rambler: The UK's oddest legal stand-off



    Naked Rambler Stephen Gough has spent more than six years in Scottish prisons for refusing to put his clothes on. The authorities have made it clear they do not want him there but the rambler is sticking to his principles. The result is possibly the UK's oddest legal stand-off.

    The Naked Rambler has been released from prison in Edinburgh after serving his latest sentence for public nudity.

    Stephen Gough has 18 convictions and has been in prison almost without a break since May 2006.

    His previous spells of freedom have often been as little as a few seconds, with arrest following his refusal to wear clothes on departure from prison.

    The offences of which he has been convicted are breach of the peace and contempt of court, refusing to wear clothes in front of the sheriff.

    He has twice walked naked from Land's End to John O'Groats - in 2003-04 and 2005-06 - typically wearing only boots, socks, a rucksack and perhaps hat.

    In England, Gough had run-ins with the police, but the attitude in Scotland has consistently been tougher with police and courts mostly agreeing that being naked in public is fundamentally a breach of the peace.

    Gough's attitude has also hardened, with the rambler refusing to wear clothes in court or after being arrested, leading to contempt of court convictions.

    The authorities in Scotland are growing rather weary.

    After his last conviction, the prosecution service issued a statement, the tone of which could be said to be exasperated.

    The Crown Office, responsible for prosecutions in Scotland, pointed out that it and the police had done all they could to "prevent" Gough from offending. In order to break the "vicious circle" which sees Gough thrown back in prison as soon as he is released, police chiefs decided earlier this year on a different approach.

    In July, Gough, a 53-year-old former marine from Eastleigh, Hampshire, was allowed to walk away from Perth prison without wearing clothes.



    Ch Supt Andy McCann, of Tayside Police, says a decision was taken to allow Gough to go on his way and only arrest him if his behaviour was gratuitous. "We asked him to show a bit of consideration," McCann says.

    But within three days, Gough was back in court after he walked naked past a children's playground in Fife.

    Adrian Cottam, procurator fiscal summary for the east of Scotland, says that despite repeated police requests, Gough has "intentionally caused shock and alarm to children and their parents".

    At Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court, Sheriff James Williamson says Gough's "disregard for other members of the public, in particular children" shows "arrogance" and "self-indulgence". He also lost patience with Gough for his refusal to allow social workers to assess his mental health.

    "When he did walk the length of the country he was variously ignored, celebrated and arrested," McCann says.

    Police have a certain amount of discretion over whether to arrest a person for being naked in public, he adds, and if people just see Gough as an "oddity" it would be fine to allow him to carry on.

    "It is about context and the alarm he is causing and his intention to cause alarm and whether his offences are flagrant and persistent."

    Gough's second walk to John O'Groats ended in February 2006.

    It took eight months because his trek was broken by spells in prison - but not even snow in the far north of Scotland could deter him from rambling naked.

    In May of that year, on a flight from Southampton to Edinburgh to attend an Appeal Court hearing, Gough stripped off in the toilet and was arrested when the plane landed. He has been in prison pretty much since then, and has spent six years in segregation.

    "He's had to be managed separately from other prisoners because he refuses to wear clothes," says Tom Fox, of the Scottish Prisons Service. "He is asked every day if he will put on clothes and he refuses."

    Fox says it is a self-imposed segregation that causes difficulties for prison management, but prison rules say that clothes must be worn.

    John Scott QC, chair of the Howard League for Penal Reform in Scotland, says the bill to keep Gough in prison for so long must have reached hundreds of thousands of pounds. It costs about £40,000 a prisoner a year, rising when an inmate is separated from others, and when he is repeatedly discharged and readmitted.

    "The point Gough is trying to make has become an expensive one for the rest of us," Scott says. "He has accrued the kind of prison sentence which people usually get for doing real harm and crimes of violence."

    It is Gough's contention that to be naked in public is a fundamental freedom and that nakedness is an aspect of his personal autonomy.

    "The human body isn't offensive," he told the Guardian in March 2012. "If that's what we're saying, as human beings, then it's not rational."

    Gough says he is determined to make his way the length of the UK "without compromises". He took this view all the way to the Scottish appeal court, where it was rejected.

    Scott, who is also a human rights lawyer, says being naked is "not generally accepted to be a human right".

    "You can develop your own thinking on what a human right is but if that clashes with the rights of other people not to be upset or alarmed then you have a problem."

    Andrew Welch, commercial manager of British Naturism, says Gough's behaviour has been "perceived to be confrontational, intolerant and inconsiderate".

    But Welch agrees with the principle that it is not an offence to choose not to wear clothes. There is no evidence that nudity causes harm to anyone of any age, he says, and "body shame" results in widespread and often serious negative effects, mainly to children and young people.

    "Nakedness is not illegal. A lot of this is about the application of the law," Welch says.

    "Naturist people are law abiding but we would like to know what the law is. People in authority seem to let personal opinion overcome what the law says."

    A number of Gough's convictions have been for contempt of court as he refuses to wear clothes in front of the sheriff. But the charge which gets him in front of the sheriff in the first place is breach of the peace.

    Criminal solicitor Grazia Robertson notes the flexibility of the offence. "You do not have to pass a new statute every time someone coughs in the wrong place," she says.

    But just because "one little old lady is shocked" it is not enough to prove there has been a breach, she says.

    On two occasions during his long history with the Scottish courts, Gough has been cleared by sheriffs.

    In 2007, Sheriff Isobel Poole ruled there was insufficient evidence to show that his state of undress had caused alarm to members of the public. Gough had been arrested in the car park after being released from Saughton Prison in Edinburgh.

    The sheriff decided there was no evidence of "actual alarm or disturbance", although she understood how such conduct could be considered unpleasant to passers-by.

    If Gough maintains his insistence on public nudity, what can the Scottish legal system do?

    One option - which the Crown Office says it has tried - is shipping him back to England.

    On his release from Edinburgh prison in 2007, police officers offered to take Gough to an address of his choosing in Yorkshire. Although he originally agreed to go with them, he changed his mind and attempted to walk from the prison along the A71 and was arrested again.

    Scott says the sooner a way is found to get Gough out of Scotland the better.

    "It is a situation calling for a degree of compromise from the authorities but they can't be seen to be saying he can do whatever he wants. If it was decided to let him on his way naked, they would not be saying he has won. People are not going to copy him.

    "The state needs to keep a sense of proportion because the harm he is causing is more offence and annoyance than damage to people and society. This could carry on until he is too ill to put on clothes. And that does not strike me as a sensible approach on behalf of the state."
    Have been vaguely following the travails of this chap as he drifts in and out of the news over the years.

    I find myself struggling with this.

    First and foremost; yes, the human body isn't something to be embarassed about, to be hidden away. Human convention has developed over the last 2 millenia where we haven't become accustomed to seeing nakedness outside of our own homes. That we cover up at all times. That, arguably, doesn't make it wrong to be naked, out and about in public. Just (highly) unusual. The law disagrees.

    I found myself flinching instinctively when I read the paragraph about the rambler walking nude past schools and children's playgrounds. But why? His point is - so what? This should be natural. It shouldn't matter where he is when naked, nor who sees him naked, child or adult. We have become so protective of a child's innocence today, so paranoid about dem paedophiles around every damn corner. It's easy to view this ramblers nudity while walking near children's areas through those paranoid eyes. Rightly so? I myself don't think so.

    I remember being on a beach in Northern Spain 5 or 6 years ago, and seeing a man walk naked up and down the beach, not a care in the world. It didn't raise an eyebrow. Is the street different to the beach? Had that chap walked off the beach and onto the street, would he then have been promptly rounded up and thrown into the back of a police van (Spanish liberal attitudes to such matters notwithstanding)... ? I would hope not, somehow.

    So for Stephen Gough? A bit of kudos perhaps for so determinedly standing by a difficult principal. Otherwise, is he just a bit eccentric? A bit off his rocker? Should it matter if he is?

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    Society has certain norms, and if you don't want to abide by them, you're free to live outside of society. I hear hermit huts are selling for cheap. You have the right to do what ever you want to yourself, but you do not have the right to force yourself upon others. Society has determined that, at the very least, children shouldn't be exposed to nudity. This guy decided that his values take precedence over society's values. That's fine, but he should be prepared to pay a price for those beliefs. Incidentally, if he was only concerned with being nude, I'm sure he could find plenty of places where he can be without getting arrested.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    I admire the principle he's standing for (don't think it's the right way to go about it). I find nothing fundamentally wrong with being naked. I would not see a society the accepted nuditing as diong something that violates others rights.

    That said if your society all agrees you must wear clothes, and you wish to be a part of that community you should also wear clothes. If you want to fight it, it should be through litigation, and getting your message out there. Perhaps attempt to create subcultures in your larger civilization of nude communities (wonder if the birth-rate will go up in such communities).

    I wouldn't have a problem with America or other countries transitioning into allowing complete nudity anywhere and everywhere.

    Inherantly there is no moral problem with it. If it was legal.. The only issue is balancing your desire to be naked and other people preference of you being covered. A balance of wants.

  4. #4
    What about the general public rights not to have to look at his ugly ass?
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    What about the general public rights not to have to look at his ugly ass?
    I can apply that to ugly people in general, horrible clothing some people wear, the vast amounts of perfume some people wear, etc.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    What about the general public rights not to have to look at his ugly ass?
    This.

    I have little problem with him rambling naked through more secluded genuine rambling areas, but through towns and cities is different and past a children's playground is on purpose I think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #7
    Prison seems to be harsh. And considering what the average Brits wear, naked seems to be a good alternative.
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    naked in the snow?
    Congratulations America

  10. #10
    Not just naked in the snow....naked plunges into freezing water!

    Did anyone offer this dude a thong or Speedo micro-swim-suit, just to cover his genitals (especially while walking in front of play grounds)? Maybe he'd be willing to wear one of those Gandhi Indian type of coverings, instead of English trousers.

  11. #11
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    I fail to see why it is so horrible for children to see genitals. Seeing someone's genitals does not automatically mean you're going to have sex with that person. I don't feel a particular desire to see the average person naked, but I also don't think that that should be the basis for regulation. Basically I think this guy's human rights are being abused for no good reason at all.
    Congratulations America

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I fail to see why it is so horrible for children to see genitals. Seeing someone's genitals does not automatically mean you're going to have sex with that person. I don't feel a particular desire to see the average person naked, but I also don't think that that should be the basis for regulation. Basically I think this guy's human rights are being abused for no good reason at all.
    It opens cans of worms that just don't need opening at all.

    I wouldn't walk past a school with a loudspeaker shouting that there's no Santa either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    It opens cans of worms that just don't need opening at all.

    I wouldn't walk past a school with a loudspeaker shouting that there's no Santa either.
    Doing the latter would spoil other people's fun. Walking around naked doesn't really do anything at all to other people.
    Congratulations America

  14. #14
    Seeing your butt ugly naked ass isn't my style of fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    We see things on a daily basis we don't really choose to see. Next thing you know people will be thrown in prison for having an offensive BO.
    Congratulations America

  16. #16
    It isn't a right not see someone naked, it's a desire, a prefrence, and that needs to be balanced out with others desires. If it was a right then it'd be fundamentally and in herantly wrong.

    the difference here being if society accepted nudity it'd be both morally and legally okay.

    On the contrary if society accepted the random murder of one another, regardless of the agreement it's still immoral, even if it's now legal.

    The only reason it's a big deal to us, and say not african tribes is because of social indoctrination. I still think this man is going about this issue the wrong way.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    We see things on a daily basis we don't really choose to see. Next thing you know people will be thrown in prison for having an offensive BO.
    So that makes it a 'right' to walk through town and by a school totally naked?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #18
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Oh, why won't someone think of the children!
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    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    So that makes it a 'right' to walk through town and by a school totally naked?
    Schools aren't public grounds in that sense - there's tonnes of stuff you're not allowed to do in school that you are allowed to do on the streets.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    So that makes it a 'right' to walk through town and by a school totally naked?
    I don' t see anything intrinsically wrong with it.
    Congratulations America

  21. #21
    OK for everyone saying that its suddenly a human right to walk around naked I assume its also OK to cover up for some of that time? I can't see why it could possibly not be?

    So I suppose someone who walks about wearing a long Mac overcoat (but with nothing on underneath) and say walks up to women alone in the parking lot and exposes himself to them, that's perfectly OK too?
    I guess exposing going around dressed while with adults but then exposing yourself at a fence of a playground to kids would be a human right?
    At work I have a human right to follow a woman into the store cupboard, close the door and drop my trousers and underpants to the floor exposing myself to her?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #22
    No, but you could wear spandex and be disgusting in public?

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    OK for everyone saying that its suddenly a human right to walk around naked I assume its also OK to cover up for some of that time? I can't see why it could possibly not be?

    So I suppose someone who walks about wearing a long Mac overcoat (but with nothing on underneath) and say walks up to women alone in the parking lot and exposes himself to them, that's perfectly OK too?
    I guess exposing going around dressed while with adults but then exposing yourself at a fence of a playground to kids would be a human right?
    At work I have a human right to follow a woman into the store cupboard, close the door and drop my trousers and underpants to the floor exposing myself to her?
    I think those specific examples cross the harassment threshold.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  24. #24
    So its OK to be naked so long as you never cover up?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    So its OK to be naked so long as you never cover up?
    Or possibly that it's generally okay to be naked but not okay to use nakedness as a tool to harass or accost a person. A corollary of that may indeed be that it's more okay to be naked all the time I refer you to the defense of British cop-haters in a nearby thread for one illustration.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    So its OK to be naked so long as you never cover up?
    Is it OK to wear a see-through blouse and a bikini or thong bottom? That's being "covered up" in the strictest sense, at least for most public environments, including airports. They'd look more closely at my feet, and whether or not "shoes" include flip-flops.

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