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Thread: Supreme Court to Rule on Genetics Patents

  1. #1

    Default Supreme Court to Rule on Genetics Patents

    Here's one I don't think we've done to death.

    Imagine a licensing agreement for buying seeds that allows them to be used only once a season. They cannot be resold for planting, and cannot be used for research, crop breeding or seed production.

    Those indeed are the terms of seed giant Monsanto’s licensing agreement for its “Roundup Ready” soybeans, regardless of how unnatural the conditions may seem when it comes to farming. This is farming in the age of patented, genetically modified organisms, which in this case concerns soybean crops that withstand herbicide.

    The Supreme Court is weighing in on the soybean patents, agreeing to hear an appeal by a Knox County, Indiana soybean farmer who was ordered to pay $84,456 in damages and costs to Monsanto in 2009 for infringing those patents.

    Farmer Vernon Bowman’s dirty deed? The 74-year-old bought soybean seed from a local grain elevator that was contaminated with the patented seed, which he used to produce beans on his 299 acres.

    The case addresses the question of how far down the stream of commerce — in this instance the farming cycle — can a company control its patents, especially for products like soybeans that easily self-replicate. A lower court, an appeals court and even the Obama administration maintain the stream is virtually endless.

    The administration told the Supreme Court in a filing that the justices should not concern themselves with the possibility that such rigid patent protectionism could undermine traditional farming techniques, where parts of one harvest are often used to produce the next. The administration said Congress “is better equipped than this court” (.pdf) to consider those concerns.

    If the farmer’s view were adopted, the government argued, “the first authorized sale of a single Roundup Ready soybean would extinguish all of [Monsanto's] patent rights to that soybean and to its progeny.”

    Monsanto agreed, telling the court that if it sided with the farmer, such a decision would doom its business model.

    “Without reasonable license restrictions prohibiting the replanting of second- and later-generation soybeans, Monsanto’s ability to protect its patented technology would effectively be lost as soon as the first generation of the product was introduced into the market,” the agriculture giant told the high court in a filing.

    Farmer Bowman began purchasing Monsanto’s patented seeds in 1999 and, because of the licensing agreement, did not save any of the seed for future planting. But he also bought so-called “commodity” seed from a local grain elevator, which acts as a clearinghouse for farmers to buy and sell seed.

    But given that more than 90 percent of the soybeans planted in the area were Roundup Ready crops, the elevator’s seed was contaminated with Monsanto’s patented seed.

    Farmer Bowman planted that commodity seed, which was substantially cheaper to purchase, to produce a second, late-season crop, which is generally more risky and lower yielding. He then used seeds generated in one late-season harvest to help produce subsequent late-season crops.

    Monsanto sued him for patent infringement, and he lost.

    “Even if Monsanto’s patent rights in the commodity seeds are exhausted, such a conclusion would be of no consequence because once a grower, like Bowman, plants the commodity seeds containing Monsanto’s Roundup Ready technology and the next generation of seed develops, the grower has created a newly infringing article,” the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit ruled last year.

    The court noted that, once Monsanto’s patent genie is out of the bottle, Monsanto controls the soybean landscape.

    “While farmers, like Bowman, may have the right to use commodity seeds as feed, or for any other conceivable use, they cannot ‘replicate’ Monsanto’s patented technology by planting it in the ground to create newly infringing genetic material, seeds, and plants,” the appeals court added.

    Bowman appealed, urging the Supreme Court to analyze whether the law allows patent holders to “continue to assert patent rights after an authorized sale.”

    Monsanto’s licensing terms allowed farmers to sell the seed produced by one Roundup Ready crop to grain elevators. But the terms also forbid unauthorized planting of those seeds.

    “Practically, this issue affects every farmer in the country and the method of planting that farmers such as Mr. Bowman have used for generations,” Bowman’s attorneys wrote in their petition to the Supreme Court.

    The court, which decided Monday to review the case, did not indicate when it would hold oral arguments.
    Source

    Seems like a tricky issue to me. I'm not sure what to think about it. On the one hand, saying that you can't use the seeds you produce for a new round of crops doesn't seem right, but on the other hand, destroying any profit in developing new strains seems like a bad idea.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Here's one I don't think we've done to death.


    Source

    Seems like a tricky issue to me. I'm not sure what to think about it. On the one hand, saying that you can't use the seeds you produce for a new round of crops doesn't seem right, but on the other hand, destroying any profit in developing new strains seems like a bad idea.
    The compromise would be to have to set the price on the first generation then. You can't stop the law of unintended consequences, once its in the general environment you can't expect to control everything just because some of it is the off-cuts of yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #3
    Monsanto is a pretty vile company, but people have virtually no one else to turn to at this point. They love getting onto farmer's land who they don't control and stealing some of the crops, so that when its tested and comes up with a Monsanto stamp they can sue them into oblivion. Bowman wasn't the first, not by a long shot.
    There was a study published either this month or last that connected their roundup ready GMOs with cancer. and they are blowing millions to defeat California's GMO labels. fun times ahead.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 10-11-2012 at 04:38 PM.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Monsanto is a pretty vile company, but people have virtually no one else to turn to at this point. They love getting onto farmer's land who they don't control and stealing some of the crops, so that when its tested and comes up with a Monsanto stamp they can sue them into oblivion. Bowman wasn't the first, not by a long shot.
    There was a study published either this month or last that connected their roundup ready GMOs with cancer. and they and blowing millions to defeat California's GMO labels. fun times ahead.
    A pretty vile company that has singlehandedly increased the amount of global food production by unheard-of margins. (Also, the single GMO-cancer article you're referencing was shoddy and inconclusive - something the EFSA agrees with me on. As far as I'm concerned, GM food is a godsend. Well, not literally.) This isn't to suggest that some of the criticism of their approach esp. re: the developed world isn't warranted, but on the balance they have done a lot of good IMO.



    Look, I think there's two separate issues at stake here. The first is a straightforward question of copyright/patent law. This isn't copyrighting a natural process or a gene they discovered - it's copyrighting an organism they redesigned with a specific and very effective purpose in mind. It's a huge undertaking with significant costs, and it makes sense they should be granted a patent for it (as opposed to some genetic patents which are much more iffy). In that context, they have every right to restrict the unlicensed copying (especially for sale) of their engineered plants, as otherwise no one would have any incentive to buy more than one seed from them.

    The second issue is the tricky details of this case. I'm not sure I understand it completely (not a farmer), but it doesn't sound like this was willful infringement, but rather an issue of contamination. I find it challenging to understand why he should be liable for such contamination rather than someone higher up the chain who caused it. I can't really comment on this component with any knowledge, though.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    The second issue is the tricky details of this case. I'm not sure I understand it completely (not a farmer), but it doesn't sound like this was willful infringement, but rather an issue of contamination. I find it challenging to understand why he should be liable for such contamination rather than someone higher up the chain who caused it. I can't really comment on this component with any knowledge, though.
    The key to their argument *and I'm not saying the courts should agree* is that bit about each new generation of seed being a freshly infringing article. Monsanto knows that the contamination issue makes a claim on that first buy problematic. The obvious source higher up the chain to go after is the grain elevator. But the elevator sells the grain for all kinds of purposes, plenty of which Monsanto doesn't restrict, and there is no requirement to find out or dictate the purpose a buyer wants to put the material. And Monsanto can't go higher up the chain because there's no way to determine which farmer(s) introduced the Monsanto soybeans into the elevator.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  6. #6
    You also have to consider cross pollination. If gmo crops contaminant open pollination crops, do those crops become infringing products?
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    The key to their argument *and I'm not saying the courts should agree* is that bit about each new generation of seed being a freshly infringing article. Monsanto knows that the contamination issue makes a claim on that first buy problematic. The obvious source higher up the chain to go after is the grain elevator. But the elevator sells the grain for all kinds of purposes, plenty of which Monsanto doesn't restrict, and there is no requirement to find out or dictate the purpose a buyer wants to put the material. And Monsanto can't go higher up the chain because there's no way to determine which farmer(s) introduced the Monsanto soybeans into the elevator.
    Each new generation IS an infringing article, no question. But I don't think that has any bearing on the specifics of this case. Just because Monsanto doesn't have anyone to go after doesn't mean they can go after a guy who's blameless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    You also have to consider cross pollination. If gmo crops contaminant open pollination crops, do those crops become infringing products?
    I don't think that's a major issue with this case. Regardless, it's irrelevant since genetic testing can easily show that.

  8. #8
    Article also mentions soybean, those can cross pollinate, no? Just looking at the larger picture.

    Google says corn does the same...
    http://ohioline.osu.edu/agf-fact/0153.html
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  9. #9
    They can indeed cross-pollinate, but that's besides the point. IMO unintentional and partial copying is not an issue, especially since I imagine they won't be as remotely effective in hybrid form anyways. Regardless, it's easy to determine whether a sample plant is the original GMO or the result of hybridization. It's harder to prove if the hybridization was intentional or not, but certainly replicating a pure strain is a violation of their IP irrespective of that issue.

    Regardless, it's largely a marginal issue on the borders of fields.

  10. #10
    Marginal or not, Monsanto has won cases because of it before.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Look, I think there's two separate issues at stake here. The first is a straightforward question of copyright/patent law. This isn't copyrighting a natural process or a gene they discovered - it's copyrighting an organism they redesigned with a specific and very effective purpose in mind. It's a huge undertaking with significant costs, and it makes sense they should be granted a patent for it (as opposed to some genetic patents which are much more iffy). In that context, they have every right to restrict the unlicensed copying (especially for sale) of their engineered plants, as otherwise no one would have any incentive to buy more than one seed from them.
    You're making the exact opposite argument in the MP3 thread...
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #12
    Not at all. Illegally copying music and selling it is a problem. If I buy a seed from Monsanto and want to sell the same seeds to someone else, that's 100% okay by me. The issue is copying the seed, just like copying the music. First sale doctrine is irrelevant to copies.

  13. #13
    Monsanto’s licensing terms allowed farmers to sell the seed produced by one Roundup Ready crop to grain elevators. But the terms also forbid unauthorized planting of those seeds.

  14. #14
    Which means whatever you buy, you have to plant that year. They have sued farmers that they claim tried to store the seed for later planting.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  15. #15
    It's complicated, for sure. But seems to me the intent is being ignored, or conflated, in this "virtually endless stream" of patent ownership.

    Farmer Brown buys seed from a grain elevator because it's cheap/affordable. It's been "contaminated" with a genetic modifier in that grain elevator, but he has no way of knowing that. No one would, until after it's been planted, grown, and harvested.

    Seems unfair to expect Farmer Brown to treat those seeds like a lab experiment (with a duty to test) instead of just seeds that he bought legally (with benign intentions). I'm not sure what "tests" are required from the grain elevator operator companies, but it's far-fetched to assume they have nefarious intentions either.


  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Not at all. Illegally copying music and selling it is a problem. If I buy a seed from Monsanto and want to sell the same seeds to someone else, that's 100% okay by me. The issue is copying the seed, just like copying the music. First sale doctrine is irrelevant to copies.
    You're limiting what people can do with a good after they buy it...
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    You're limiting what people can do with a good after they buy it...
    They own the seed on purchase, not the IP.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    They own the seed on purchase, not the IP.
    I fail to see the difference from MP3 sales. In neither case is the buyer claiming the IP.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I fail to see the difference from MP3 sales. In neither case is the buyer claiming the IP.
    No but in the case of "reselling" the mp3 the owner of the IP has already been compensated appropriately and an incentive remains for new buyers to buy from the owner of the IP. His ownership is not usurped. Buying a single patented seed and then selling a thousand of its descendants every year is not equivalent to buying a single mp3 and then reselling that mp3 once to one person while losing access to the file yourself. Buying a single seed and then reselling that specific seed unused may be a better comparison.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    You're limiting what people can do with a good after they buy it...
    Not at all; IMO you should be able to do whatever you want to with a patented/copyrighted good you buy, short of copying it for profit. That's the distinction here and it's pretty straightforward.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Not at all; IMO you should be able to do whatever you want to with a patented/copyrighted good you buy, short of copying it for profit. That's the distinction here and it's pretty straightforward.
    Then you're against Monsanto's position?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #22
    If Monsato want to restrict cross-contamination, replanting or whatever then they need to come up with a GM-crop that won't re-plant/produce seeds. That they can then sell to their hearts content. I don't see how Monsato can be allowed to prevent farmers doing what they've done since the dawn of civilisation - unless perhaps as the alternative they can 100% guarantee no cross-contamination.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If Monsato want to restrict cross-contamination, replanting or whatever then they need to come up with a GM-crop that won't re-plant/produce seeds. That they can then sell to their hearts content. I don't see how Monsato can be allowed to prevent farmers doing what they've done since the dawn of civilisation.
    At the very least they should be required to offer strong evidence of wilful and criminal infringement.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Not at all; IMO you should be able to do whatever you want to with a patented/copyrighted good you buy, short of copying it for profit. That's the distinction here and it's pretty straightforward.
    Obviously, it's not so straightforward, or it wouldn't be up for SCOTUS review.

    Farmer Brown ostensibly "profited" by using the seeds for their intended purpose: growing soybeans that he could sell at market. "Growing" denotes a type of copying, but that's not something Monsanto discovered/created/developed. That's just the nature of seed biology, and farming in general.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Then you're against Monsanto's position?
    On the specifics of this case, I have no idea - I haven't researched it in any level of detail and couldn't give you an informed opinion. On the face of it, it does not appear to be a case of willful infringement since he had no idea part of his seed stock included the GM organisms.

    On the broader issue of whether their patents have force with fairly broad applicability. To me, it's not a matter of Monsanto controlling far down the commerce stream; rather, it's a matter of patents applying to a product (and unlicensed copying of their product being illegal) irrespective of who owns it. This particular case may have some exculpatory evidence for the farmer, but that doesn't mean that someone isn't liable (IMO probably whoever sold the mixed seeds to the farmer).

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If Monsato want to restrict cross-contamination, replanting or whatever then they need to come up with a GM-crop that won't re-plant/produce seeds. That they can then sell to their hearts content. I don't see how Monsato can be allowed to prevent farmers doing what they've done since the dawn of civilisation - unless perhaps as the alternative they can 100% guarantee no cross-contamination.
    I don't think that's the case. Does a company need to provide copy protection on everything they produce in order to pursue legal redress against infringement? I think not; in fact, with most copyrighted media today I think most of us would agree that such copy protection schemes are counterproductive, expensive messes. With a GMO I can only imagine it would be far more complicated and far more expensive.

    There's a subtle distinction here I think many people are missing. There's the issues of contamination of a seedstock with GM seeds (resulting in a mix of some GM seeds and some unmodified seeds); in my mind, the person who sold the GM seeds knowingly to such a 'bank' is liable for infringement (everyone downstream, if they are not knowing or willfully negligent, they probably are less of a problem). To cause this kind of contamination, someone needs to do something on purpose, and they are producing exact copies of a GM seed for sale.

    The second kind of contamination we've discussed is inside a single organism, where you can get cross-pollination between different crop strains resulting in hybrid seeds containing some GM genetic material. These hybrid seeds are probably fairly marginal in the grand scheme of things, but they probably do offer some improvement over unmodified crops, so one could argue that they are infringements of the patent. However, I see RB's logic in this case, since the cross-pollination occurred without the planning or prior knowledge of the farmer, and the results are not direct copies. Absent a concerted effort to circumvent patents in this manner, I think it's far more forgivable and tougher to enforce.

  26. #26
    Do CDs naturally copy themselves, automatically produce new versions? No.

    Do crops? Yes.

    Sorry but seeds are part and parcel of the product you sold.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Do CDs naturally copy themselves, automatically produce new versions? No.

    Do crops? Yes.
    So what? The issue isn't making the copy, it's making the copy for profit. Monsanto explicitly allows making 'seeds' in one generation for food, but not to propagate a new generation of GMOs.

    Sorry but seeds are part and parcel of the product you sold.
    Okay, so Monsanto will now sell 1 seed to a lucky farmer for, say, $5 billion? Patents and copyrights are granted to companies irrespective of the ease of copying the product because we want to give the producer of a new good a short term monopoly on the production and sale of that good to compensate them for the costs of innovation. In your world, Monsanto will get essentially no reward for the incredibly valuable service they have provided the world at significant cost and effort.


    An interesting fictional read on this issue is The Windup Girl. In a world where courts don't enforce these patents, the author envisions biotech companies releasing viruses to destroy old 'unlicensed' crops, resulting in massive famines and epidemics. I know that's a bit of hyperbole, but the underlying point is solid - willfully flouting these sorts of patents is a recipe for disaster, and completely removes the incentive for innovation in food biotechnology, which is desperately needed today.

  28. #28
    Its not a recipe for disaster any more than not using GMO companies for thousands of years of human civilisation is a recipe for disaster. Farmers have used techniques like that the farmer in question have used since before Monsanto existed. If Monsanto can't create a product that works in that environment then that's their problem, I don't see why farmers have to stop doing what they've always done just because a new company decides they can't.

    Monsanto can get as much reward as they can for selling what they've invented if they want within the confines of the industry they've chosen to work in. Seeds are part and parcel of that industry, as are grain elevators etc
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Its not a recipe for disaster any more than not using GMO companies for thousands of years of human civilisation is a recipe for disaster. Farmers have used techniques like that the farmer in question have used since before Monsanto existed. If Monsanto can't create a product that works in that environment then that's their problem, I don't see why farmers have to stop doing what they've always done just because a new company decides they can't.

    Monsanto can get as much reward as they can for selling what they've invented if they want within the confines of the industry they've chosen to work in. Seeds are part and parcel of that industry, as are grain elevators etc
    Okay, so you're essentially dooming the entire food biotechnology industry. I guess that means we'll have to come up with another way to feed 9-10 billion people by 2050. The only way to really work it your way is for Monsanto to get directly into agriculture through vertical integration - buy up lots of land, plant their own engineered crops and control the seedstock at every stage. Obviously that's not going to happen.


    Just because an industry has 'always worked' some way doesn't mean it can't be changed if a new and better technology comes along. This is simple patent protection for a very expensive technology; I don't see why you have a problem with them pursuing infringement cases. If farmers want access to engineered seeds (which dramatically increase their yields and profits), they have to be willing to respect the patents of the creators of this technology.

  30. #30
    I think you need to do a bit more work to get people accept the argument that Monsanto, and by extension the biotech industry, cannot exist unless it sues farmers for 80,000 for (unknowingly?) buying contaminated grain.
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