Supply and Demand Retards

[GGT]

I'd love for some enterprising businessman to truck in gallons of clean water several hundreds of miles. Of course they won't do that if they can't make a profit... (you see how this works yet? Minus the profit incentive you'll have fewer people willing to go to extraordinary lengths).

What's that got to do with DISASTER dynamics?

Walmart either donated or trucked thousands of gallons of bottled water to Katrina victims. It was part of business-and-community efforts to help people stay alive during a crisis. It had positive PR affects, and was tax deductible 'charity', but it wasn't just to make money.

In fact, they'd have been roundly criticized as exploitative and greedy SOBs if they'd doubled prices on that water, just to make corporate profits, when babies and elderly were dropping like flies from dehydration.

[Lewkowski]

What's that got to do with DISASTER dynamics?

Walmart either donated or trucked thousands of gallons of bottled water to Katrina victims. It was part of business-and-community efforts to help people stay alive during a crisis. It had positive PR affects, and was tax deductible 'charity', but it wasn't just to make money.

In fact, they'd have been roundly criticized as exploitative and greedy SOBs if they'd doubled prices on that water, just to make corporate profits, when babies and elderly were dropping like flies from dehydration.

For Wal-Mart the good PR was worth the cost. For the independent guy who wants to make a quick buck - PR doesn't mean squat. But he'll be the one who drives hundreds of miles to deliver critical goods... IF he gets fair market value. And fair market value in limited supply periods is going to be higher than in times of abundant supply.

[Ominous Gamer]

PR doesn't mean squat.

PR means far more for the little guy than the larger guys.
Unless you're just out to exploit people, then I could understand why you would think this.

[GGT]

Yeah, nothing like making a quick buck by exploiting desperate people in the midst of a DISASTER. No wonder Lewk places such importance on gun ownership, Castle doctrine, and vigilante "justice". Cowboy Capitalism, as if it's a FPS game.

[Aimless]

I'd love for some enterprising businessman to truck in gallons of clean water several hundreds of miles. Of course they won't do that if they can't make a profit... (you see how this works yet? Minus the profit incentive you'll have fewer people willing to go to extraordinary lengths).

It's okay, you can get a disaster relief organisation to do it instead

[Hazir]

It' s funny how people of a certain type seem to think that the free market is a goal in itself rather than a means towards a goal.

[Enoch the Red]

It' s funny how people of a certain type seem to think that the free market is a goal in itself rather than a means towards a goal.

It's funny how people of a certain type seem to think that government is a goal in itself rather than a means towards a goal.

[Hazir]

It's funny how people of a certain type seem to think that government is a goal in itself rather than a means towards a goal.

I hope you are not referring to me, since I don't think that at all, unless you take government to be any type of societal organisation, including the most loose arrangements between individuals.

[Enoch the Red]

I hope you are not referring to me, since I don't think that at all, unless you take government to be any type of societal organisation, including the most loose arrangements between individuals.

I just thought we were telling jokes.

I happen to think it odd that you find people who find freedom to be a worthy goal funny, but it takes all kinds.

[GGT]

[Ziggy Stardust]

I happen to think it odd that you find people who find freedom to be a worthy goal funny, but it takes all kinds.

Freedom or the free market? Or are the the same?

[Hazir]

I'm with GiGi, it's nonsense to insist on the market when a disaster by definition distorts the market.

[Khendraja'aro]

And a temporary and localized distortion, while we're at it.

[Timbuk2]

Surely anything that has an effect on the market could be viewed as a distortion.

A disaster is just one criterion among a whole spread of criteria which can distort (affect) the market.

[Hazir]

Surely anything that has an effect on the market could be viewed as a distortion.

A disaster is just one criterion among a whole spread of criteria which can distort (affect) the market.

One could take things to that extreme; however I think one would have to be a native speaker of English for something as crazy as that. I think the storm 'Sandy' well surpassed the description of a random 'anything' for other people.

[Aimless]

Surely anything that has an effect on the market could be viewed as a distortion.

A disaster is just one criterion among a whole spread of criteria which can distort (affect) the market.

I've only seen it used wrt things that substantially affect outcomes.

[GGT]

And now there's mandatory gas rationing.....partly because of price gouging and/or black market profiteering that was leading to other problems.

DISASTERS expose the flaws in Free Market theory, when supply/demand disruptions lead to hoarding, looting, violence, social breakdown, chaos. People tend toward base instincts of survival and self-protection during DISASTERS, not necessarily their best angels or the milk of human kindness. It makes sense on a certain level....In the event of an emergency, apply your own oxygen mask first, before attempting to help others.

But when the lights go out, people get scared, hunker down, and shrink their groups. It's a pretty rare group that rations water or food (or fuel) among themselves, in order to find others in need. Like the wheelchair-dependent person living on the 12th floor, without elevators. Or the oxygen-dependent person whose tank is empty.

Sure, it often happens that people band together in altruism, philanthropy or charity. They check on neighbors, organize as a community, and reach-out. Especially during a crisis. But that's just not enough, as history has shown, when people either freeze or dehydrate to death in anonymity....surrounded by people. That's when "Big Government" is no longer the problem or teh evil enemy.

[Illusions]

And now there's mandatory gas rationing.....partly because of price gouging and/or black market profiteering that was leading to other problems.

Its actually to reduce the wait times and lines for gas, and to hopefully ease some of the violence, or reduce the escalated threats of violence that have been occurring more recently. The main form of rationing right now is just Odd-Even rationing, where plates ending in odd numbers or letters can only get gas on odd numbered days, and even numbered plates on even numbered days.

[Lewkowski]

PR means far more for the little guy than the larger guys.
Unless you're just out to exploit people, then I could understand why you would think this.

The little guy who isn't even in the normal business of selling generators? And even if he did sell them in his local area I'm having a hard time his local market is going to hear news stories about that one guy (pro or con).

[Lewkowski]

Yeah, nothing like making a quick buck by exploiting desperate people in the midst of a DISASTER. No wonder Lewk places such importance on gun ownership, Castle doctrine, and vigilante "justice". Cowboy Capitalism, as if it's a FPS game.

No one forces anyone to buy anything. Its an even exchange. Someone comes from a long way to make a quick buck - the people who now have a good that was in short supply are happy to pay extra - if they didn't want to pay extra they just wouldn't buy. I don't get how this is exploitation. Your system essentially forces out anyone who does want to go out of their way at risk to themselves to sell needed goods and services. Impact? Fewer goods and services are available for those that need it most.

[Lewkowski]

It's okay, you can get a disaster relief organisation to do it instead

If the disaster relief organization provided 100% of all the goods needed the the would be enterprising businessman would have no market. And then we wouldn't have anything to argue about. However since government is cracking down on price "gougers" then obviously there is a shortage.

[Lewkowski]

I'm with GiGi, it's nonsense to insist on the market when a disaster by definition distorts the market.

The market causes equilibrium to be found. If prices are very high and goods are scarce there is a powerful incentive to have folks like our generator man go extra lengths to provide those goods. Let me ask you this. Do you think Mr. Shepperson was doing something wrong? Do you agree that the government was right to seize his goods and jail him?

[Hazir]

The market causes equilibrium to be found. If prices are very high and goods are scarce there is a powerful incentive to have folks like our generator man go extra lengths to provide those goods. Let me ask you this. Do you think Mr. Shepperson was doing something wrong? Do you agree that the government was right to seize his goods and jail him?

I have no idea who he is or what he did. I could very wel imagine government regulating (against) his commerce during a time of emergency, as we saw during and immediately after Sandy. The importance that we as a society put on the goals of government should decide on the punishment. So yes, there could be times that breaking a trade law should put you in jail.

To paraphrase a politician of the country I am in right now; the free market is like a tramway; if you no longer want to go where it takes you there is no reason to stay on it.

[Lewkowski]

I have no idea who he is or what he did. I could very wel imagine government regulating (against) his commerce during a time of emergency, as we saw during and immediately after Sandy. The importance that we as a society put on the goals of government should decide on the punishment. So yes, there could be times that breaking a trade law should put you in jail.

To paraphrase a politician of the country I am in right now; the free market is like a tramway; if you no longer want to go where it takes you there is no reason to stay on it.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...price-gouging/

After Hurricane Katrina, Mississippi Attorney General Jim Hood announced a crackdown on “gougers.”
John Shepperson was one of the "gougers" arrested. Shepperson and his family live in Kentucky. They watched news reports about Katrina and learned that people desperately needed things.
Shepperson thought he could help, so he bought 19 generators. He and his family then rented a U-Haul and drove 600 miles to an area of Mississippi left without power.
He offered to sell his generators for twice what he had paid for them, and people were eager to buy. But police confiscated his generators, and jailed Shepperson for four days. The police kept his generators.
Did the public benefit? No.
It's price "gougers" who bring the water, ship the gasoline, fix the roof, and rebuild cities. You might not believe me but will you believe Nobel Prize-winning economists Gary Becker, Vernon Smith and Milton Friedman? All three have said “ gouging” is good. Milton Friedman said, “price ‘gougers’ save lives.”

[Ominous Gamer]

You might not believe me but will you believe Nobel Prize-winning economists Gary Becker, Vernon Smith and Milton Friedman? All three have said “ gouging” is good. Milton Friedman said, “price ‘gougers’ save lives.”

I know its hard for you to find sources beyond fox news, but this quote is originally from an article that's 6 years old, and Gary Becker is only thrown into the mix because of a blog post (that's since been deleted) he had in response to Posner. While Becker didn't fully agree with price fixing of gas during Katrina (because it ignored the increased cost of bringing gas in), he also said that he agrees with price controls during times of rescue.

edit: your link is also invalid

[Loki]

Are you seriously claiming that the issue in NY/NJ right now is rescuing people?

The problem right now is that the supply of gas has gone down (for various reasons), while demand has gone up (due to panic buying). Can you please tell me how rationing and price controls solve this problem?

[Ominous Gamer]

I was only referring to Lewks overly simplistic and out of context quote. Not once did I suggest that the current situation is still in the rescue stages. I mentioned it to show that Becker doesn't have a gouging is good attitude, at least from the source his quote is originally pulled from; to show that once again there are areas of grey that lewk doesn't understand.

[LittleFuzzy]

Are you seriously claiming that the issue in NY/NJ right now is rescuing people?

The problem right now is that the supply of gas has gone down (for various reasons), while demand has gone up (due to panic buying). Can you please tell me how rationing and price controls solve this problem?

You're asking how rationing works to curb panic-buying?

[Loki]

You're asking how rationing works to curb panic-buying?

The rationing in question is done by odd/even car registration plates, not quantity purchased. I would argue that any kind of rationing would actually contribute to panic buying, since people who were not panicked before would be panicked now.

I was only referring to Lewks overly simplistic and out of context quote. Not once did I suggest that the current situation is still in the rescue stages. I mentioned it to show that Becker doesn't have a gouging is good attitude, at least from the source his quote is originally pulled from; to show that once again there are areas of grey that lewk doesn't understand.

My bigger point was that not allowing price hikes is contributing to the current shortages; why would anyone rush to get gas supplies to NY/NJ when they can charge no more there than they can elsewhere (where they don't have to do extra work)?

[Ominous Gamer]

My bigger point was that not allowing price hikes is contributing to the current shortages; why would anyone rush to get gas supplies to NY/NJ when they can charge no more there than they can elsewhere (where they don't have to do extra work)?

Which is what Becker said. Arguing that pricing control needs to account for increased expenses is not the same as arguing that price gouging is good.