Palestine

[Hazir]

Today the Genereal Assembly of the United Nations will vote on giving Palestine 'non-member observer state' status. This implicit recognition of Palestine as a state is being played down and described as counterproductive by both Israel and the US. I think the vote is relevant because it does create a narrative where there are two states (as originally intended) and where it will be considerably harder for Israel to pursue policies based in the fiction that what a big part of the world (including parts of Europe) recognizes as a separate state as 'disputed territories'.

The vehemence with which the vote is opposed by the US and Israel belies their claims that the vote is irrelevant and won't change anything. In very subtle but significant ways things will change; tonight for the first time in my life I saw a map on the main news of the public broadcaster which showed a map of the area, in which an area that previously would be referred to as 'Westbank' was highlighted with the caption 'Palestine' over it.

The Netherlands most likely will abstain in the vote today.

[Loki]

If Palestine is a state, ruled by Fatah, what happens when there are attacks on Israel out of Gaza?

[Hazir]

Palestine was voted 'non-member observer state' with 138 votes in favour and 9 votes against.

[Hazir]

If Palestine is a state, ruled by Fatah, what happens when there are attacks on Israel out of Gaza?

The normal rules about self-defense would apply. Self-defense does not include the destruction of a neighbouring state.

[Dreadnaught]

Minor Rule 12 violation with this post.

Candidly, I don't see how it changes much of the UN agenda. I mean, the UN is obsessed with the Palestinians (and condemning Israel) anyway. The Palestinians get more time devoted to them than probably any other single group. So this new "status quo" isn't that new in comes way. Most of the left-wingers who populate the global diplomatic corps already see Palestine as a should-be state anyway, so why not be open about how they have been pre-judging an ongoing dispute? And why not let the anti-Zionists that populate the media (especially in Britain) have an excuse to be even more blatantly one-sided and start broadcasting maps of "Palestine"?

I'm curious how one declares a state with no clear borders. Like are the Palestinians then going to go to tons of states and demand recognition and embassies?

That said, I think it's a savvy move by the Palestinians and I'm surprised it wasn't tried earlier. I guess it just seemed beyond many people's imagination. Israel will undoubtedly continue to undermine any real recognition, which they are totally within their rights to do. After all, this vote basically rips-up the Oslo Accords.

Though this will also increase pressure on Israel to hopefully retrench on some of the settlements and, as Hazir says, the myriad subtle pressures will multiply now that the anti-Zionists who populate academia and the media will have a slightly elevated platform to agitate from. This could be a good thing if it increases Israel to go beyond recognizing its existential dilemmas and take some radical moves to withdraw settlers.

Overall, I think this is kinda good/kinda bad. But at least it's movement. At least for now. So congrats to the Palestinians.

[Hazir]

It was tried last year.

[Dreadnaught]

By "recent" I meant like in the 1980s after the first intefadah. I guess there was no PA to recognize (and the talks to create the PA eventually took center stage). But it seems like a potential alternative that was just beyond people's imaginations. Then again I've been hitting the sauce pretty hard.

[Hazir]

I think that at the time it would have been considered too little to consider for the Palestineans. Given that the Cold war wasn't over at the time it would have been considerably harder too to muster enough support for this move. Countries that felt free to vote today would have been manhandled into voting against.

[Loki]

The normal rules about self-defense would apply. Self-defense does not include the destruction of a neighbouring state.

What neighboring state? Fatah claims sovereignty over Gaza.

[Hazir]

What neighboring state? Fatah claims sovereignty over Gaza.

You may have noticed there is no state called Gaza and no relevant person or group is claiming Gaza is not a part of Palestine. The idea that a state's government needs recognition is not universal by the way. Many countries go by the rule that what is recognized is the state, whoever governs that state is an internal affair.

The bottom line is, regardless of what Israel says or does; the more states treat Palestine as if it is a state, the more this will become a reality. Israel's denial of this can't stop it.

[Veldan Rath]

I'll readily admit that I'm no expert on the full political fun this can lead to, but if Palestine is now a recognized state, and Hamas starts lobbing rockets...isn't that an act of war?

[Loki]

You may have noticed there is no state called Gaza and no relevant person or group is claiming Gaza is not a part of Palestine. The idea that a state's government needs recognition is not universal by the way. Many countries go by the rule that what is recognized is the state, whoever governs that state is an internal affair.

The bottom line is, regardless of what Israel says or does; the more states treat Palestine as if it is a state, the more this will become a reality. Israel's denial of this can't stop it.

My point is that if Palestine is a state, then Israel has the right to attack the West Bank in retaliation for attacks from Gaza.

I'll readily admit that I'm no expert on the full political fun this can lead to, but if Palestine is now a recognized state, and Hamas starts lobbing rockets...isn't that an act of war?

It's not recognized as a state. It's a step in that direction.

[Veldan Rath]

Then what constitutes being recognized as a state? X # of countries?

[Loki]

I stand corrected. They are technically now a state (according to the UN), though not a voting member of the UN. Statehood itself is a contested concept. You're a state to those who recognize you as a state. Achieving that recognition is easier when you're recognized by most major powers. Most states (though not some of the bigger ones) already recognized Palestine as a state before this resolution. This is more a play for prestige and an attempt to put legal pressure on Israel than any real change in how others view Palestine.

[Hazir]

My point is that if Palestine is a state, then Israel has the right to attack the West Bank in retaliation for attacks from Gaza.

Yes, statehood is not a free ride. I doubt Hamas likes it very much.