Recycling

[Dreadnaught]

At work I was perusing some data about garbage generation in the US. A lot of the data seems to tout lower per-capita waste generation:



http://www.epa.gov/osw/nonhaz/munici..._factsheet.pdf

Yet when you dig deeper, you get this mixed bag-

• Since 1990, the total amount of MSW going to landfills
dropped by almost 10 million tons, from 145.3 million to 135.5
million tons in 2010 (see Table 3).

• The net per capita discard rate (after recycling, composting,
and combustion for energy recovery) was 2.40 pounds per person per day, lower than the 2.51 per capita rate in 1960, when virtually no recycling occurred in the United States
(see Table 4).

How is it that after decades of recycling and waste reduction efforts, the net per-capita waste output is only 5% lower than in 1960?

I guess on the plus side, we are truly able to generate a TON more economic output while reducing per-capita waste so that's not terrible. I guess the ratio needs to be tinkered more.



So, my question: would you buy a big-ticket item like a cellphone or a car if it was compostable and biodegraded within xx years?

[wiggin]

I'm not sure I really understand your question. I assume that my cell phone is not a big driver of our waste numbers (especially since almost all cell phones are recycled to either refurbish for resale on the secondhand market or to extract useful and rare materials). Ditto for most of my other expensive purchases, which are generally relatively small size-wise and are kept for long periods (my TV, for example, will probably be replaced every 10-20 years; my computers every 4-5). The only really big capital purchase I make in terms of pounds of waste is likely to be my car. I haven't a clue how cars are dealt with nowadays, but if my memory from children's programs is any indication, most of junked cars are stripped of anything valuable/useful and then scrapped. Certainly a relatively significant contribution to my lifetime waste, but not that much.

I imagine that most of my average waste disposal is just everyday stuff - disposable items like napkins or tissues (or the occasional bits of tableware from parties), food waste including compostable materials that I simply throw out (because, let's be honest, what's the point of composting if you live in an apartment?), packaging that can't be recycled, etc. My big ticket items are probably negligible compared to my other waste.

[Hazir]

Yeah, I was wondering too, why would you want a compostable car/cellphone if you could re-use the materials of those durables as we speak? Stuff that goes into a landfill, yeah, I would say that nothing should go there that doesn't degrade. And I also think it wouldn't be a bad thing if producers got a shove in the right direction.

[Dreadnaught]

The recycling process is somewhat hard for those devices. And my understanding is it's not getting much easier as various composites and rare earth materials are buried in various systems.

But maybe the cellphone and car examples weren't really getting the question across. I was mainly thinking about the development of biodegradable/compostable plastics and extrapolating the limited progress in that space into the future. What would consumer tolerance be if a large proportion of the ordinary things we own biodegraded over time, whether it was a big-ticket item or something smaller. EG furniture, a washing machine, alarm clocks, packaging.

Does that make a bit more sense?

[wiggin]

I think that disposable things - including disposable electronics - should be made as easy as possible to recycle or degrade, yes. But I think that non-disposable items - such as most things on your list - should not be designed to fall apart over the course of a reasonable lifetime. Coffee cups are not exactly the same as furniture.

[Dreadnaught]

That's my question -- would you object to a stated reasonable lifetime for something a broad range of consumer products, after which it would biodegrade?

[GGT]

Why does it have to be bio-degradeable?

I wouldn't mind buying a phone or car (or refrigerator or washing machine) that has a high percentage of parts or materials that can be re-used or re-purposed.

Same thing works in reverse -- buying things made from other things' components. Car tires have been re-used and re-purposed in multiple ways, from soil erosion berms to shoe soles and handbags. Poly-propalene bottles can become fleece jackets, etc.

The key to recycling is balancing the energy used, and pollutants created, during the process. The "thing" itself doesn't matter as much as how it's being recycled.

[Ominous Gamer]

That's my question -- would you object to a stated reasonable lifetime for something a broad range of consumer products, after which it would biodegrade?

whats reasonable? I took my Gameboy to the movies tonight, a Gameboy that's nearing 20 years old... We are the 3rd generation to own our piano. My bed frame is older than I am.

No, I don't think you are going to find a "reasonable" lifetime. If anything products need to be made to last longer. The problem is that Ikea consumer mindset that you are trying to promote

[GGT]

In that vein, it's interesting to note that older "durable goods" were truly "durable". They could stand the test of time, and didn't have a planned obsolescence that's so common today.

I still have an old rotary phone with a curly cord. Heavy as hell, but still works like a charm. It's outlasted multiple modern models of land line, cordless, and cell/mobile phones.

[Hazir]

I think the question is not one of durability but of items becoming obsolete. Even if my first cell phone would have been still fully functional I would not want to have it today, it simply lacks a lot of functions that I find essential in a phone. Furniture on the other hand; only if it really loses it's function I would be inclined to replace it. And then of course you have the items of furniture that are older than you and in your family for several generations; you don't want them to degrade ever at all.

[Dreadnaught]

Why does it have to be bio-degradeable?

I wouldn't mind buying a phone or car (or refrigerator or washing machine) that has a high percentage of parts or materials that can be re-used or re-purposed.

Same thing works in reverse -- buying things made from other things' components. Car tires have been re-used and re-purposed in multiple ways, from soil erosion berms to shoe soles and handbags. Poly-propalene bottles can become fleece jackets, etc.

The key to recycling is balancing the energy used, and pollutants created, during the process. The "thing" itself doesn't matter as much as how it's being recycled.

In that vein, it's interesting to note that older "durable goods" were truly "durable". They could stand the test of time, and didn't have a planned obsolescence that's so common today.

I still have an old rotary phone with a curly cord. Heavy as hell, but still works like a charm. It's outlasted multiple modern models of land line, cordless, and cell/mobile phones.

The problem with buying things that have recyclable components is that it's still not easy to recycle. Electronics are a great example of this -- they are full of small amounts of recyclable materials, but many don't recycle them because electronics recycling drop-offs are relatively rare in many areas and the process itself is expensive because you have to take it apart.

I have a rotary phone too. Actually, I have two. But the materials inside them are relatively easier to extract and recycle compared to a modern phone.

More generally, I'm talking about the idea that people will always be buying new things to some degree. And they will always be throwing out old things. So is there any value to producing some goods with the idea that they will likely be replaced/thrown-out within a few years/decades and should biodegrade over time.

[Ominous Gamer]

The problem with buying things that have recyclable components is that it's still not easy to recycle. Electronics are a great example of this -- they are full of small amounts of recyclable materials, but many don't recycle them because electronics recycling drop-offs are relatively rare in many areas and the process itself is expensive because you have to take it apart.

Consumers shouldn't suffer because there are some that shop poorly or use inconsiderate manufacturers or products. I wouldn't say that electronics are difficult to recycle, there is a rather high demand in that market, to the point that people will weed through dumps looking for electronics and whatnot for the bits of copper and gold. Its just not as easy as recycling paper, and never will be.

When you upgrade a phone through TMobile they actually give you a prepaid bag to return your own phone. So I assume they somewhat know what the hell is going on and how to do it.

thrown-out within a few years/decades and should biodegrade over time.

What items do people suddenly decide to dispose of after a few decades? And how would building these items out of shittier materials be better than building them for the long term and donating them to places like goodwill and other agencies that help the unfortunate.

[wiggin]

That's my question -- would you object to a stated reasonable lifetime for something a broad range of consumer products, after which it would biodegrade?

I think this is a complex question. To some extent, I think that already happens - some things you buy are clearly less durable than others, and you pay for the difference. IKEA is cheaper than real furniture, and while it doesn't exactly 'biodegrade', it does fall apart. Ditto with plenty of other goods, which are planned to fall apart at some point. So, from that perspective, if the products were designed to biodegrade - and companies were open about the timing - I think that would be fine (though the materials engineering to achieve this may be quite a bit more complex than you might think).

On the other hand, I think that forcing this on people is a bad idea, so I don't think there should be something like a government directive. I think that there should be a market - for people who are shopping for hand-down-to-grandchildren kind of stuff, you buy the real deal, which has no planned degradation. For people who just want throwaway furniture for their dorm, they can buy cheap stuff which will fall apart. At the end of the day, it's really just an extension of what I said above - if you're intending your purchase to be disposable on some time frame, then indeed it might be worth it to buy the degradable stuff.

How to get companies to spend on the engineering work to make their cheap products degradable is likely to be challenging, though. Obviously some companies will do it just to look good (e.g. Starbucks cups or whatever), but plenty have thin enough margins in the discount market that they're unlikely to find it worthwhile. I'm not sure a good way to provide these incentives. Perhaps jacking up the prices on disposal, but providing a price break for degradable goods that are disposed of correctly? Incidentally, this is an easy way to reduce trash volume/weight in general as well - charge residents a much steeper price for trash removal, and suddenly they'll recycle and compost a lot more. Classic Pigovian taxation, my favorite tax policy.

[GGT]

The planned obsolescence of tech products (cell phones, computers), durable items with limited lifespan (cars, fridges) and cheap fall-aparts (IKEA furniture) is a garbage/waste problem. Specifically junkyards vs landfills vs incinerators, or "hazardous waste" that we ship off to other places NIMBY.

I've heard of one incentive aimed at manufacturers, starting at the corporate engineering level. Not by adding a tax, but a requirement that they're responsible for the disposal of their products they make and/or sell. That means they have to plan for the eventual end of their product, not just its inception and sale.

When a car dies or is totaled, instead of going to a generic junkyard or industrial 'resource retrieving' operation, the car and its components become the responsibility of the manufacturer and/or the seller. When a fridge dies and can't be fixed, instead of going to the curb on "heavy item" garbage pick-up (which the township or county pays for currently), the manufacturer and/or seller takes ownership.

The costs would be passed onto the consumer at the front-end of purchase, but the back-end disposal would ultimately be a corporate responsibility. They could network with other manufacturers, and share special retrieval and disposal entities, either by item or component. They'd be 'forced' to engineer disposal into their designs and sales.

Interesting proposal.

[wiggin]

That doesn't sound like a very good idea.

[Dreadnaught]

Well, me being me, I of course would be very reluctant to advocate forcing this on people. But I think it's an interesting potential consumer option depending on where the technology goes. And, as Wiggin points out, it's something that could be compelling if large areas took garbage/recycling collection on a per-pound/volume basis.

[Ominous Gamer]

it's something that could be compelling if large areas took garbage/recycling collection on a per-pound/volume basis.

something that would also be achieved by making items more durable and educating people to be better consumers, looking towards charity instead of the dump when one does have the fancy for something new would be icing.

[Timbuk2]

Does the US not have phone recycling and reselling industry?

It's big business over here. The TV is filled with adverts for companies that will buy your phone off you. Mazuma Mobile is one of the best known, and a company I posted my last phone to when I received an upgrade, and received cash in return.

If the phone is functional, they resell it in China, Africa, Indian subcontinent. If it's not functional, they recycle and sell the parts.

In the UK there were an estimated 20 million phone upgrades in 2011. That's a heck of a lot of unwanted phones.

[Dreadnaught]

We do, but it's not too developed. In general, electronics recycling isn't too developed.

I think the success of phone recycling so far has a lot to do with the rapid evolution in the cellphone itself.

[RandBlade]

Biodegradable := recycling

Old mobile phones can be recycled, there are companies that will pay for old mobiles in order to recycle them.

As for your figures, we consume (and produce) far more than we did 50 years ago. To be able to do so with less waste is very impressive I think.

[wiggin]

Biodegradable := recycling

Old mobile phones can be recycled, there are companies that will pay for old mobiles in order to recycle them.

As for your figures, we consume (and produce) far more than we did 50 years ago. To be able to do so with less waste is very impressive I think.

True, but Dread isn't wrong that it would be better to reduce this figure even more. Landfills aren't cheap, and they're also pretty bad for the environment. I also abhor throwing away anything made from plastic - to the chemical engineer/polymer chemist in me, it's like watching irreplaceable resources going down the tubes just so somebody could get a cheap knickknack.

[Dreadnaught]

Indeed, I'm currently going through all my stuff and giving/throwing away about 30% of my stuff. Hitting a bit of a speedbump when it comes to electronics like old phones.

I'd like to donate them or recycle them, but it's hard to find a particularly convenient electronics/phone recycling program. But I'm wary of even those options because I'm not confident in my ability to completely wipe them clean of old photos, drunk texts, etc. So I'm left with dramatically empty shelves and drawers...and an entire drawer half-filled with old phones going back to the beginning of the last decade. I guess I could throw away the boxes to consolidate the physical space...

[Illusions]

I'd like to donate them or recycle them, but it's hard to find a particularly convenient electronics/phone recycling program.

Hard to find a particularly convenient electronics/phone recycling program? Most Best Buy locations have a phone recycling drop off either right in the vestibule or in the building itself. Whether they actually recycle the phones, and whether employees are unable to look through said phones I guess is another issue.

I myself have to find someone or some business to take my old, dead UPS, since I believe its a sealed lead acid battery with circuitry controlling it, I can't just throw it out, or turn it in to regular neighborhood recycling programs.

[Ominous Gamer]

Staples and Office Depot either still have or used to have recycling programs too.

As for the UPS, contact your city/county government. They may have a program at one of the dumps.

[GGT]

What part of a cell phone stores pics and texts? Can't some memory card be removed like the SIM card? We have cell phone recycling drop bins all over the place, even some Starbucks. They usually state how they're either re-conditioned or 'melted down' with other plastics for re-use.

But we can no longer put out a CRT television at the curb for heavy trash pick-up. *Or old computers* They're loaded with too many toxic components, unless someone knows what they're doing, and uses proper precautions. (Unlike the tons of stuff sent overseas for 9 year olds to pick through with their bare hands looking for bits and pieces )

Old appliances like ovens and fridges are picked up at the curb. One of our local salvage companies gets first dibs buying any parts or metals they want...then it goes to our landfill with a fee. All those costs are mixed in our municipal trash removal charges, billed quarterly with septic sewer fees.

No idea where retailers who remove-and-replace old appliances (at no charge) send the old stuff. Lowe's and Home Depot now sell those Driveway Dumpster bags that you can fill with all sorts of waste, then call municipal trash companies to haul it away....

[Dreadnaught]

Hard to find a particularly convenient electronics/phone recycling program? Most Best Buy locations have a phone recycling drop off either right in the vestibule or in the building itself. Whether they actually recycle the phones, and whether employees are unable to look through said phones I guess is another issue.

I myself have to find someone or some business to take my old, dead UPS, since I believe its a sealed lead acid battery with circuitry controlling it, I can't just throw it out, or turn it in to regular neighborhood recycling programs.

Indeedy, I would be willing to go out of my way to a BestBuy (they aren't super close by) but I remain paranoid about my data lurking on them.