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Thread: EU-US free trade zone

  1. #61
    I have just been out sniffing rhino bums and I must say it has been rather refreshing. If any of you chaps are presented with the opportunity to do so then I strongly urge you to grab this bull by the horns and tally hoe right on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    snip


    That may be the political spin of the agricultural lobby and their political puppets, but there's no truth behind it. The vast majority of CAP cash (and US equivalent) goes to a small minority of large businesses. Furthermore the prices are too high because we have floors to our prices (but tariffs and other restrictions on those from outside) - remove the tariffs, remove the subsidies and as taxpayers we'd pay less out and as taxpayers we'd get cheaper food.
    Don't confuse small farms with Big Ag. In the US, farm subsidizies have gone back and forth, from protecting the Family Farm to huge agricultural multi-national conglomerates abuses. Just look at our corn industry, and how it emerged as an alternative to fossil-fuel industries. It didn't do much to lower fuel costs, but it did raise food prices. Big Ag vs Big Oil?

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I have just been out sniffing rhino bums and I must say it has been rather refreshing. If any of you chaps are presented with the opportunity to do so then I strongly urge you to grab this bull by the horns and tally hoe right on.
    Huh?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Not only is that a personal opinion with no scientific evidence to back it up - the idea that there is "no debate possible [about] which standards are stricter" is ridiculous - especially in this month given the news across Europe in recent weeks. We may not be guinea pigs but I didn't realise the Americans have been the ones eating horsemeat labelled as "beef" and in their lasagnes etc.

    I would rather know I'm eating GM-food that has been safety-tested and has a secure food chain that's getting tested, than not know which bloody animal I'm eating and nobody else in the food chain seems to have a clue either!
    That may be the political spin of the agricultural lobby and their political puppets, but there's no truth behind it. The vast majority of CAP cash (and US equivalent) goes to a small minority of large businesses. Furthermore the prices are too high because we have floors to our prices (but tariffs and other restrictions on those from outside) - remove the tariffs, remove the subsidies and as taxpayers we'd pay less out and as taxpayers we'd get cheaper food.
    How typical for you again to not see the difference between regulations and breaking the law.
    Congratulations America

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Huh?
    I'm guessing someone has gotten a hold of Rand's account...

    Or he's just really gotten into rhinos.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    How typical for you again to not see the difference between regulations and breaking the law.
    No I'm talking about the difference between spurious regulations that are neither scientific in reason, tested nor enforced in practice but just passed to appear like you give a shit ... and sensible, scientific-based, enforced regulatory environment. The idea we've had horse instead of beef [which can be detected easily from basic tests] all over the continent makes a mockery of the notion that standards are any higher here - lip service standards are meaningless. How typical of you not to see the difference between what politicians say they want and what reality does.

    As for Rhinos Amanda got a hold of my iPad and 'fraped' me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No I'm talking about the difference between spurious regulations that are neither scientific in reason, tested nor enforced in practice but just passed to appear like you give a shit ... and sensible, scientific-based, enforced regulatory environment. The idea we've had horse instead of beef [which can be detected easily from basic tests] all over the continent makes a mockery of the notion that standards are any higher here - lip service standards are meaningless. How typical of you not to see the difference between what politicians say they want and what reality does.

    As for Rhinos Amanda got a hold of my iPad and 'fraped' me.
    Oh come off it, you can't compare some horses being sold of as beef with a concerted effort to introduce GM foods or allow the entire production of meat be subjected to levels of use of anti-biotics that are at least questionable. And no I am not going to hunt for 'proof' as it is a well established fact that anti-biotics loose their effectiveness if over-used.

    And before you go off huffing and puffing again about how this isn't 'a few horses'; there are not enough horses in Europe to make a serious dent in the beef market, even if you'd slaughter all of them. The most probable reason for horses being sold off as beef at all probably lies in the fact that due to the crisis a lot of people who held horses no longer can afford to do so.

    By the way, you really can't stop yourself from taking it upon yourself to contradict whatever it is I say can you? You could for a change have chosen to keep your flap closed when I expressed a personal opinion and explicitly told Loki it was a personal position. But of course you had to take it onto an entirely useless tangent of that not 'being scientific'. Are you just as big a bore in real life or is that something you reserve for on this forum.
    Congratulations America

  8. #68
    For one optimistic perspective...

    http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...e-is-different

    For Transatlantic Trade, This Time Is Different

    Why the Latest U.S.-EU Trade Talks Are Likely to Succeed

    Tyson Barker
    February 26, 2013

    In his State of the Union address two weeks ago, U.S. President Barack Obama announced that Washington would launch negotiations with the European Union this year on a comprehensive venture called the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP). Negotiators in the United States and Europe aspire to make the TTIP the most advanced economic agreement in the world, and any deal will likely go beyond the most basic aspect of free trade -- namely, the elimination of tariffs. More broadly, Europe and the United States can be expected to align their regulations regarding manufacturing and services such as finance and telecommunications. The deal would also address new frontiers of economic growth, including the U.S. shale gas market and online intellectual property. They also hope to eliminate almost all barriers to foreign direct investment.

    The elimination of tariffs alone, which average out to four percent on goods traded between the United States and Europe, could remove a $24 billion impediment to transatlantic trade. Beyond free trade, however, the real gains from the deal would come from regulatory cooperation. Transatlantic business would flourish, for example, if German cars that passed safety inspections in Stuttgart also met standards appropriate for U.S. drivers, if drugs and medical devices designed in one market could be sold to consumers in the other more quickly, and if smart-phone plugs built for both markets would be interoperable. In the highly regulated areas of advanced manufacturing and services, the backbone of the U.S. and European economies, streamlining business would give each side a huge boost in competitiveness.

    The idea for such a deal is not new. Apart from the enlargement of NATO and the EU to formerly communist countries, no joint project has captured the imaginations of American and European leaders as much as the creation of a transatlantic marketplace. Together, the U.S. and European economies account for approximately 50 percent of global GDP, and the trade, investment, and commerce that passes between them amounts to $5 trillion annually. The sheer size of this relationship provides the logic behind the United States and Europe's continuing to set the economic rules by which the rest of the world abides. Bringing the two economies together in a free trade agreement could unleash growth of 0.5 to two percent of GDP on each side of the Atlantic and create as many as two million jobs in the process.

    IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED

    For all its potential, this great economic project has remained illusory. One previous effort, the Clinton administration's 1995 New Transatlantic Agenda, aimed to refocus U.S.-European relations on economic ties, with the newly created European Union as the primary interlocutor. As with the TTIP, negotiators then sought to create a flurry of new institutions and mutual recognition agreements that would establish a free trade area between the United States and Europe. Essentially, they tried to create a transatlantic marketplace in one swift stroke. But more immediate security issues in the Balkans and the admission of China to the World Trade Organization pushed this goal to the wayside.

    Later, in 2007, the Bush administration sought to revive the issue of transatlantic economic cooperation, working with Germany to create the Transatlantic Economic Council. The TEC was meant to graft the U.S. and European economies more closely together, primarily through regulatory cooperation in areas as disparate as accounting, electric vehicles, and nanotechnology. This initiative aimed at growing a transatlantic marketplace by slowly breaking down the regulatory barriers between the two markets. But the effort quickly became bogged down in technical disputes around one issue: the import of chlorine-washed chicken from the United States to Europe.

    A major obstacle to such deals is that culture and commerce collide when two governments attempt to align their regulatory policies, often with unpredictable outcomes. In the United States, the basic building block of regulation is cost-benefit analysis. Europe takes a more cautious approach, placing the burden of proof of a product's safety on the innovator. In essence, the differences in regulatory approach can easily fall into the stereotypes that each side harbors about the other: whereas the American approach emphasizes the outcome, the Europeans care more about the process.

    Could this time be different? Differences in U.S. and European agriculture policies, particularly Europe's more restrictive regulation of genetically modified organisms, have been insurmountable stumbling blocks in previous rounds of U.S.-EU trade talks, and there are signs that agriculture could play the same role this time around. Other sectors are also likely to sow discord between the two sides. Europe and the United States have different ideas about how to regulate online tech companies, the use of cloud computing, and cybersecurity. These issues have become the subject of highly politicized debates throughout Europe on citizens' rights to privacy and data protection. In general, some European policymakers believe that the American system lacks adequate protections against the commercialization of individuals' personal information, demanding that companies such as Google and Facebook respect their users' "right to be forgotten."


    THE FIERCE URGENCY OF NOW

    Still, despite these challenges, there are a number of indications that a deal can actually be achieved this time around. Europe's desire for an agreement is palpable, and Washington knows it. In light of the eurozone crisis and larger challenges to the European approach to social welfare, governments in the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, and Germany are looking to rejigger the European economy for long-term competitiveness -- and are looking to adopt more market-based stimulus. As a result, there is now a greater willingness to accommodate U.S. conditions for a deal. The United States has been determined to leverage its position to win favorable terms before the negotiations begin. In particular, Washington insisted on achieving certain preliminary agreements to ensure that the Europeans had sufficient political clout to dislodge the interest groups that had prevented past deals, such as agricultural lobbies and smaller parties such as the Greens and the Pirates, and anti-globalization parties on the far right and the far left.

    More important, the strategic calculus for a Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership seems to have changed. First and foremost, a U.S.-EU trade and investment deal could boost the slumping economies on both sides of the Atlantic. This allure has always been there in previous trade talks, but given anemic U.S. economic growth and the eurozone recession, the need for stimulus is particularly acute these days. In December 2012, unemployment stood at 7.8 percent in the United States and at 10.7 percent in the EU. Consider the potential effects of a deal. Today, a third of the tariffs paid by the United States go to Europe. Zeroing out tariffs could add $180 billion to both economies. And the greatest benefits to be gained may come from deeper regulatory alignment, in which both sides seek ways to recognize the other sides' standards, certifications, and safety tests for products as roughly providing an equivalent level of protection for their consumers.

    What is more, the logic behind such a deal is not just economic -- it's also political. Several geopolitical developments could also tip the scales in favor of the agreement.

    For starters, a trade deal would give logic to a transatlantic relationship that many observers lament is becoming irrelevant. A budget-constrained Washington and a Europe still battling its sovereign debt crisis may find it difficult to take joint action on the global stage. With the United States increasingly looking east toward Asia, and the EU increasingly turning inward, the threat of the transatlantic community being pulled apart is real. But trade negotiations would reinvigorate the transatlantic alliance. Moreover, they would also help legitimize the EU in the eyes of some euro-skeptic governments, such as in London and in Prague, by providing a project that would put market access at the core of the EU's global mission and allow their countries to balance their European and Atlanticist identities.

    On a grand strategic level, closer U.S.-European ties would also enhance the West's leverage with China at a time when it is sorely needed. As a result of China's state-capitalist model, Beijing can harness its money to enhance its industrial competitiveness. Moreover, it selectively follows international economic rules, for example by restricting market access to and exports of its raw materials, such as rare earths, and ignoring international norms about intellectual property. Left unchallenged, such behavior could undermine commerce in ways not seen since the establishment of the Bretton Woods system. A robust trade and investment deal would give the United States and Europe greater leverage in the coming decades to push back against China and reaffirm the liberal international order.

    In 1995 and 2007, when the economic preeminence of the United States and Europe was unquestioned, the two sides had the luxury of putting off negotiations. When the Clinton administration pushed for a trade deal, China's economy was the size of Turkey's. By the time of the last round of talks, the Chinese economy was the size of Germany's. Now, however, the OECD predicts that China will become the largest global economy by 2016, giving it enormous ability to set the terms of global trade. As much as anything, this change in the economic pecking order has enhanced the need for a U.S.-European trade deal.

    In the broadest terms, a U.S.-EU trade deal would allow the United States and Europe to maintain their sway over global economic governance. Both recognize that their ability to set global rules will diminish as economic power shifts to the Asia-Pacific region. In the coming decade, no one power will be able to drive the international agenda. But if they join forces, the United States and Europe can channel their combined economic weight to keep control of the reins of the global economic order.

    In his 1901 novel Buddenbrooks, Thomas Mann describes the staid German middle class, writing, "The outward, visible and tangible signs and symbols of happiness and achievement often appear only when in reality everything is already starting to go downhill again." The same could be said of the U.S.-European relationship. The honeymoon period offered by the global financial crisis and the rise of China, during which both sides may be able to make the necessary compromises, will be short, quickly subject to a battery of political timetables and shifting priorities. The political leaders who have pushed for opening negotiations now have the responsibility to ensure that the current conducive climate leads to success.

    http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...e-is-different

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    or allow the entire production of meat be subjected to levels of use of anti-biotics that are at least questionable.
    Not questionable--harmful, dangerous.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Not questionable--harmful, dangerous.
    According to? The same people who think GMOs are the spawn of Satan?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    According to? The same people who think GMOs are the spawn of Satan?
    just search for "antibiotic" here on the forum for links that surpass even your high "someone mentioned it in the Daily Mail" standards
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  12. #72
    How about you post a link?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #73
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_resistance

    Antibiotics are so overused that the human race is down to only a select few "super antibiotics" that they can fall back on because of growing resistances. Amoxicillin is so overused that its increasingly being found to be useless in modern times.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  14. #74
    That doesn't make the food itself unsafe...
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #75
    i think you're misreading when hazir and aimless mentioned antibiotics. its used in food, one of the problems, but I didn't take their posts to mean the food itself was unsafe for consumption.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  16. #76
    There's nothing in that link that shows American beef is less safe to eat than European horsemeat/beef.

    EDIT:
    It is my understanding that the problem is not that people are becoming immune to antibiotics but that the bacteria and pathogens are themselves evolving to become immune. Survival of the fittest in action.

    Given the huge volumes of transatlantic passenger travel that happen daily we're not immune to getting any bacteria that can be carried by passengers.

    So the question that matters is "Is the food safe"? And I've not seen any scientific evidence to say no b
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #77
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Resistent/immune bacteria in hospitals are a pretty big concern. I will say i'm not sure if those come from cattle with too much antibiotics, or from people who ate too much.

  18. #78

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    EDIT:
    It is my understanding that the problem is not that people are becoming immune to antibiotics but that the bacteria and pathogens are themselves evolving to become immune. Survival of the fittest in action.
    No-one has said that "people are becoming immune to antibiotics". The second part of your sentence is not as simple as you make it out to be. Excessive use in agriculture leads to a greater selection pressure--of a worse kind--on a much greater scale, and in such a way as to make it much easier for bacteria to exchange genes.

    Given the huge volumes of transatlantic passenger travel that happen daily we're not immune to getting any bacteria that can be carried by passengers.
    You're gonna hafta help me parse this sentence because it's not making sense to me in the context of this discussion.

    So the question that matters is "Is the food safe"?
    No, that's a question that matters. Another question that matters is, "Are our food production methods safe?" It's like only asking, "Are our cars safe?" and ignoring the question, "Is our driving safe?"
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    You're gonna hafta help me parse this sentence because it's not making sense to me in the context of this discussion.
    If a "superbug" evolves in the USA it won't stay in the USA because transatlantic air travel means that passengers will bring it over to Europe.
    No, that's a question that matters. Another question that matters is, "Are our food production methods safe?" It's like only asking, "Are our cars safe?" and ignoring the question, "Is our driving safe?"
    We can't stop the Americans from producing food.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If a "superbug" evolves in the USA it won't stay in the USA because transatlantic air travel means that passengers will bring it over to Europe.
    Well at least it wont evolve in my own body.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  22. #82
    It won't evolve in your body just from eating a steak either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #83
    Really, where will it evolve in a CIA lab?

    Edit: There are two possible places where they can evolve, the animal is only one of them.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  24. #84
    Does eating a steak count as the equivalent of taking a whole course of antibiotics because that's quite impressive if it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #85
    Actually it's under-dosed which is actually a bad thing regarding the issue.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  26. #86
    I find it amusing that we are having to explain how this works to rand, when the same information is in the wiki link he claims wasn't relevent
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 03-02-2013 at 10:19 PM.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  27. #87
    Okay, so let's all just pause here for a second: we could fight for a while about antibiotics fed to meat cattle for a while here.

    The question is: should those products be banned from the EU? Or can trade negotiators simply agree that beef labels state their country of origin (which they often do) and that those who don't use anti-biotics can label their meat as such?

    It's not like two slabs of beef on a shelf from the US and Germany are going to give each other cooties, right?

  28. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    those who don't use anti-biotics can label their meat as such?
    why not make those that use antibiotics label their products?
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  29. #89
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    why not make those that use antibiotics label their products?
    This.
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  30. #90
    Then labelling would either dilute its purpose, or cause a consumer uproar. Any food with egg, milk, or corn derivatives would just say "antibiotics were used in the processing of this product". Then consumers would know antibiotics are in practically everything they buy to cook or eat, unless it's a whole fruit or vegetable.

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