That's weird because I didn't change the colour.Originally Posted by earthJoker
That's weird because I didn't change the colour.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
It's OK now.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Memo to myself: Copy&Pasting from this board makes the colours go haywire.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Just don't use the WYSIWYG editor. Standard editor is good enough.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
I thought I used the standard editor but obviously not
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
I think the default is not set to standard
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Which reminds me, isn't it strange that Rand hasn't replied as of yet?
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
I flew back Wed/Thu from Canada. Approx 24 hours spent traveling (2 hour car journey, 4 Flights - 2 delayed by snow), then jet-lag, sleep etc all prevented replying.
"That was written in direct reply to a post suggesting names should be able to be banned as they can directly affect a kids grade" - Where you not claiming that names should be able to be be banned as they can directly affect a kids grade?However, it has been conclusively shown over here in Germany that certain names will have an adverse effect on their school grades.
I've already related the story of how the name "Kevin" sports some rather negative connotations in Germany.
"then using Kevin as an example." - Kevin was then used as an example of named affecting a kids grade.
Doesn't address the correlation v causation issue.
What it does is address the question of whether or not teachers prejudiciously associate certain names with certain traits. There is other literature addressing the question of whether or not teachers' assumptions about/perceptions of students influence how well those students do.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
No? I simply stated what I did without demanding a ban on names. You helpfully quoted Fuzzy's post which I replied to and for which I already gave an explanation as to what exactly inside Fuzzy's post I was responding to: Namely that a name itself can indeed have an adverse effect.
Let me repeat myself, just so it doesn't fly over your head again as you did quote my post but obviously didn't understand a single letter of it:
I stated that a name in itself can indeed have an adverse effect.
NOWHERE did I ask for a ban. I also did not demand a law on not banning names. In fact, I actually did not say anything regarding the issue of whether there should be a black list (or, indeed, a white list) for names.
Does that now get into your thick skull?
Once more: I did not ask for a ban. I never even stated if I was for or against banning names!
I'm honestly astounded that you keep on repeating your lie when you'd be perfectly able to actually go through this thread and check what I said in a matter of seconds.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
I would suggest both the problem and the remedy lies with the teachers.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
The study is aimed towards teachers. So yes.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
That would require that it's something you can actually influence - yes, there will be the cases of conscious prejudice.
There's also the subconscious. Not everything we do or act on is controlled by active thought processes.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Being aware of something is the first step of countering subconscious problems.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Alright, I'll bite. Yes, that's the first step.
And then what? How do you make sure that your subjective opinion is free from prejudice?
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Some job interviewers have a system where you give sympathy and anti-sympathy points. At the end sympathy points will count negative, as sympathy will make you give better marks on all other criteria. I don't know how well that works.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Probably quite badly as you'll give more sympathetic people less of the sympathy point purely for the reason that you'll associate those points with negative marks (and not what the label on them says).
In essence, doesn't get rid of the halo effect (that's the name for what we're talking about). Not to mention that it's still subjective. You can't get rid of subjectivity by subjecting it to another round of subjectivity.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
In the end it's simply because a certain type of parent names their kids a certain name. If not Kevin, it will be another name. Doing anything about the name won't help.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
Sure it can, just pick a name that doesn't signal low and dirty origins. I agree with Fuzzy's assessment that the problem lies with the teachers but in lieu of a sea change occurring in the profession (will never happen thanks to unions; wave your hands if you're dreadnaught) it may be worthwhile to just give your kid a neutral name rather than to take up (= use your kids in) a likely futile struggle to fix human behavior.
Or?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
The thought did occur to me that placing that sort of moral or cultural value *positive or negative* on the bearer of particular arrangements of communication symbols which have absolutely nothing to do with such values is absolutely nonsensical, should not be pandered to, and really ought not be perpetuated by patterns of deliberate avoidance.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
That's a nice sentiment but what do you propose to fix the problem?
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
At the same time, kids have no say in what names they get or what battles their parents decide to use them in, and parents ought to act in the best interests of their children. I agree with you that it sucks to have to avoid things simply because people are people.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Irrational prejudice from names? By admnistrative authorities coming down on people exercising such apparent bias and by not kowtowing to the bias. The only real way to combat such prejudices is to keep the triggers in the offender's face so they have no choice but to learn about/accept them. The biased attitudes fade with time and exposure. In other situations straight education can work but I can't think of a way to use education to combat prejudice against non-discrete sub-populations beyond the platitude that prejudging at all is just a bad thing and we all know that just doesn't carry too far. Not exactly useful for stopping harm now, I know, 's why I didn't post it until Minx brought it up. It also addresses the symptom *specific associations* rather than the underlying problem *prejudging period* but. . . I don't see a way to adequately address that problem.
Oh, so now social engineering takes a back seat to impinging on what is comfortable for individuals? What a remarkable turnaround for you Minx, there's hope for you yet.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
It's nowhere close to a turnaround; you've just constructed for yourself a caricature of my views over the years. However, there may be hope for you too. Eg. if you can explain what it is I've said that's led you to believe that I should be completely and categorically against a parent giving their child a neutral name in an attempt to avoid potential harmful consequences of being named eg. "uneeqqe" or for that matter "usama".
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
And that's why it won't work with this particular issue.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
I've understood the halo affect from a very young age, postulating on it, but I think the best way to deal with it, is to consider how you treat a person and compare it to how you are treating other people in similar situations. This can help identify the bias you have within yourself, and talking to the person you may be biased for or against to get their impression. Whose willing to be this honest with themselves, or take these issues serious enough, is another matter. but there are ways to improve the bias in prejudice.
Sometimes if you start to dislike someone then everything they do starts to annoy you, the way they talk, their mannerisms, a normal request. Kind of like how Minx reacts to Lewk, I do think there is to some extent a halo effect or negative halo effect going on. Or for that matter people to GGT. Granted she is passionate, and does not give ground easily in discussions, but people do react quiet strongly to her statements.. that go beyond addressing them and into personal attacks. It's clear this happens it's just a matter of self-reflection to keep a balance.
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