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Thread: Only bad part...

  1. #1

    Default Only bad part...

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/10/us/hom...hts/index.html

    Loganville, Georgia (CNN) -- This is not a movie. There's no dramatic music in the background. A happy ending, far from a guarantee.
    The concern in Donnie Herman's voice was clear as day. So was his stress. With two telephones to his ear, he listened to his wife, Melinda, as she fled into an attic of their Loganville home. With her: Her two 9-year-old children and a loaded .38 revolver.
    In the house: An intruder with a crowbar.
    On another line was the 911 operator Donnie Herman had called for help. Herman's words to his wife, as he sat helplessly, an hour away from the home, were recorded.
    "Stay in the attic," he instructed her, calmly.
    "He's in the bedroom," she told him. He repeated the words to the 911 operator.
    "Shh. Relax," Herman said, trying to calm his wife.
    Then he instructed her to do what was fast becoming a realistic possibility.

    "Melinda -- if he opens up the door, you shoot him! You understand?"
    What happened next has made the Hermans the new faces of the right to bear arms.
    Melinda Herman fired a six-shot revolver at the intruder, hitting him five times, in his torso and in his face. Surprisingly, he managed to flee.
    Gun rights groups say this shows that law-abiding citizens should be allowed to buy their weapon of choice and as big a magazine or ammunition clip as they like.
    They remind people that Melinda Herman had only a six-shot revolver.
    "It's a good thing she wasn't facing more attackers. Otherwise she would have been in trouble and she would have run out of ammunition," said Erich Pratt, director of communications for the Gun Owners of America.
    "She shot him five times and he still didn't drop. This is going to endanger people's safety."
    The right of self-protection has been thrust into the forefront in a national debate after last month's Newtown, Connecticut, tragedy.
    This week, a federal task force led by Vice President Joe Biden is holding talks with private industry groups, the NRA, and legislators -- all to determine the correct balance between the right to self-protection and preventing further mass shootings.
    Meanwhile, Americans are flocking to gun shops to buy guns and ammunition in record numbers -- partly due to Newtown and partly due to their fears that the rules are about to change on what they can legally own.
    The FBI said it conducted almost 2.8 million checks for gun purchases in December, a record high for a month.
    Donnie and Melinda Herman own two guns for protection at home, but until two weeks ago, she had never fired a gun. Her husband told sheriff's department investigator's that he took her shooting so that she'd be familiar with the family's guns if she ever had to use one.
    Now, clutching the .38 revolver, Melinda Herman was in the middle of a heart-pounding crisis inside her own home.
    She had already locked multiple doors before she and her children took refuge in an adjacent-room attic -- the kind with a small door that you have to bend down to go through.
    The intruder had used the crowbar to break through the front door and then two other doors upstairs, and she could hear him coming closer and closer.
    On the phone, Donnie Herman calmly instructed his wife about the use of the weapon she had practiced on.
    "Remember everything I showed you. Everything I taught you," he told her, and he reassured her that help was on the way.
    Then it happened.
    "She shot him. She's shooting him. She's shooting him. She's shooting him. She's shooting him. ... Shoot him again! Shoot him!" Donnie Herman said as the 911 dispatcher listened.
    He then lost phone contact with his wife and children. His anguish and the pain of not knowing what had happened may be etched in his mind for eternity. But they were safe.

    He learned later that his wife fired all six shots, and hit the intruder with all but one bullet.
    Not realizing she was out of ammunition, she ordered the man to stay on the floor as he bled. She then fled the house with her children.
    Walton County Sheriff Joe Chapman -- whose office responded to the shooting at the Hermans' home -- said he believes the mother and her two children were in a life-and-death situation and she had no choice but to exercise her constitutional right to self-defense.
    "Had it not turned out the way that it did, I would possibly be working a triple homicide, not having a clue as to who it is we're looking for," he told CNN.
    Despite being shot five times, the suspect, identified as Paul Ali Slater, still managed to get back into his SUV, but he drove off the road and crashed a short distance away.
    He remains hospitalized. Due to privacy laws, the hospital cannot divulge any information on his condition.
    But the controversy continues. Home gun ownership and self-defense will always be controversial.
    The Hermans' story of self-defense is being used by the National Rifle Association and the Gun Owners of America to make their point to the White House and Congress about gun ownership.
    But Donnie Herman has told people he's not interested in being a poster boy for anyone. He has not yet responded to CNN's request for an interview with him and his wife.
    "My wife is a hero. She protected her kids. She did what she was supposed to do as a responsible parent and gun owner," Herman told CNN affiliate WSB.
    Yet it's unclear whether the benefits of having a loaded and readily available gun in one's home outweigh the drawbacks.
    "It's more common for an armed homeowner in the United States to be a victim of suicide, homicide, assault or an accidental shooting than it is for that person to shoot an intruder," according to Dr. Arthur Kellermann, a senior health policy analyst at Rand Corporation, a non-partisan think tank.
    Kellermann led research for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in the 1990s which found that people who have guns in their homes are nearly three times more likely to be a victim of homicide and nearly five times more likely to commit suicide.
    Experts also say that simply having a gun for self-protection does not guarantee safety. They say the fear is that many people will take part in what might be considered a feeding frenzy by purchasing a gun, but not learn how to properly use it.
    Sheriff Chapman holds courses for homeowners who want to learn how to safely and properly use a weapon.
    "Be proficient with it. Be taught how to use it. Train with it," he said.
    "I often tell people, 'If you don't think that you have what it takes to take a human life then don't bother buying one. Don't waste your money. Don't waste your time," he told CNN.
    "Don't put it in a drawer and think that's the answer to everything, because it isn't."

    *******************

    "Despite being shot five times, the suspect, identified as Paul Ali Slater, still managed to get back into his SUV, but he drove off the road and crashed a short distance away.
    He remains hospitalized. Due to privacy laws, the hospital cannot divulge any information on his condition."

    The only way this story could of been better is if the scum bag thief died of his wounds.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    "Despite being shot five times, the suspect, identified as Paul Ali Slater, still managed to get back into his SUV, but he drove off the road and crashed a short distance away.
    He remains hospitalized. Due to privacy laws, the hospital cannot divulge any information on his condition."

    The only way this story could of been better is if the scum bag thief died of his wounds.
    I can find lots of bad things in that story, including a family that will likely no longer feel safe in their own home and children who will long bear the scars of seeing something horrible unfold in front of them, but different strokes I guess...

    But this does speak to several points I've been trying to illustrate about the usefulness of larger capacity magazines and semi automatic weapons for self defense. It's just not like the movies where it's one and done. What if in the heat of the moment she hadn't been as accurate, or if more of her shots had only grazed him, or if there had been a second assailant. To say you can only ever need 'X' number of rounds in any situation is remarkably short sighted. I think this has been pointed out before, but I somehow doubt she left that closet wishing she had fewer bullets.

    And if it was the case that you would only ever need 'X' number of rounds, why wouldn't we also limit police officers to that many rounds? I mean, police officers are highly trained, so they should be less likely to miss, more likely to put lead in the ten ring, and need even fewer rounds than your average civilian, right?
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 01-11-2013 at 07:31 AM.

  3. #3
    Pretty crappy story used to defend Castile Doctrine. They hid in the attic because an intruder used a crow-bar to break and enter, hoping to steal stuff. Maybe I missed something in the story, but I didn't see where there was a need to confront the thief with a deadly weapon. Things can be recovered, but lives cannot.

    I'm not saying people should act as passive victims in their own homes. But this story didn't pose well for what to do during a theft scenario. Especially when the only weapon is a crow-bar meant to break-and-enter.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Pretty crappy story used to defend Castile Doctrine. They hid in the attic because an intruder used a crow-bar to break and enter, hoping to steal stuff. Maybe I missed something in the story, but I didn't see where there was a need to confront the thief with a deadly weapon. Things can be recovered, but lives cannot.

    I'm not saying people should act as passive victims in their own homes. But this story didn't pose well for what to do during a theft scenario. Especially when the only weapon is a crow-bar meant to break-and-enter.
    ...

    Are you joking? Do you ever read anything that's posted here? She was hiding in her upstairs closet after closing and locking three doors behind her. He broke through all three. I just don't have the words to explain how incredibly dense you are being, but no, you shouldn't have any rights to defend yourself, and your children, or your property, in your own home against an intruder with a crowbar. I mean, the intruder clearly was in the right here.

    You are turning into a caricature of yourself. This is just reflexive stupidity.

    And you know what, I'm just being baited into this. This is exactly why I am not going to continue this conversation with you.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 01-11-2013 at 06:58 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    ...

    Are you joking? Do you ever read anything that's posted here? She was hiding in her upstairs closet after closing and locking three doors behind her. He broke through all three. I just don't have the words to explain how incredibly dense you are being, but no, you shouldn't have any rights to defend yourself, and your children, or your property, in your own home against an intruder with a crowbar. I mean, the intruder clearly was in the right here.
    Aren't you the one who accuses everyone else for having emotional, reflexive reactions to any type of violence...and suggesting that home gun ownership is the cure-all? Well, here's a story about an intruder armed with a crowbar, and a homeowner armed with a gun, and the disparities. Now you're the one being emotional....

    You are turning into a caricature of yourself. This is just reflexive stupidity.

    And you know what, I'm just being baited into this. This is exactly why I am not going to continue this conversation with you.
    Suit yourself. The debate about guns will continue, without your input.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Aren't you the one who accuses everyone else for having emotional, reflexive reactions to any type of violence...and suggesting that home gun ownership is the cure-all? Well, here's a story about an intruder armed with a crowbar, and a homeowner armed with a gun, and the disparities. Now you're the one being emotional....
    Wait, er... did you read the story?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Suit yourself. The debate about guns will continue, without your input.
    It'll be alright. You're probably doing more damage to your own side than Ghost ever could.

  8. #8
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    GGT is not alone. In fact people who think just like her are in the White House.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Just one thing: I do not mind if you shoot someone in self defense, but do you think simply pointing the gun and telling him to go would also have caused him to flee?

  10. #10
    if u dont shoot him he wont lern his lessun

  11. #11
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/11/us...eath.html?_r=0

    January 10, 2013
    Gun Enthusiast With Popular Online Videos Is Shot to Death in Georgia
    By ROBBIE BROWN

    CARNESVILLE, Ga. — Keith Ratliff loved guns. He built his own rifles. He kept bullets in his car’s cup holder. And on the rear window he slapped a sticker of the Starbucks Coffee mermaid firing two pistols.

    “I ♥ Guns and Coffee,” it read.

    Mr. Ratliff’s passion for firearms made him something of a celebrity on the Internet, where he helped make scores of videos about high-powered and exotic guns and explosives. His YouTube channel, called FPSRussia, became the site’s ninth largest, with nearly 3.5 million subscribers and more than 500 million views.

    But last week, the authorities said, Mr. Ratliff, 32, ended up on the wrong end of a gun. The police in northeast Georgia found him dead at his office on Jan. 3, shot once in the head. He was surrounded by several guns, but not the one that killed him. The Georgia Bureau of Investigation is treating it as a homicide.

    “We are interviewing people of interest, but we have not named a suspect,” said the Franklin County sheriff, Stevie Thomas. “We are not ruling out any options.”

    The news, coming amid a national debate about gun control, rippled across the blogs and social networking sites where his videos were popular. Tributes on Facebook and Twitter came from fans stunned that such a well-armed expert had not been able to defend himself.

    “For him not to pull out that gun and try to defend himself, he had to feel comfortable around somebody,” his wife, Amanda, told a television channel in Lexington, Ky., where he used to live. "Either that or he was ambushed."

    Mr. Ratliff’s videos, which starred a friend, Kyle Myers, are popular for their homegrown brand of zaniness — three minutes of Mr. Myers’s casual banter as he rakes targets or blows things up with extreme displays of firepower. Most are made outdoors, where Mr. Myers fires at targets like hay bales or photographs of Justin Bieber, while explaining the merits of various weapons. The videos always end the same way: with a boom.

    “We couldn’t make a video about such a high-powered rifle without blowing up a truck,” Mr. Myers says in one video before opening fire on an empty pickup truck. “So let’s get a nice, big explosion and maybe a little shrapnel.”

    F.P.S. is slang among video game players for “first-person shooter.” “Russia” refers to the thick accent used by Mr. Myers’s online persona.

    Mr. Ratliff recently moved from Kentucky to Carnesville, a city of 540 people that is 80 miles from Atlanta. He opened a business that made and repaired firearms, and was licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the authorities said.

    He was last seen alive at 7 p.m. on Jan. 2, the police said. The next night, the police found him dead inside the business, FPS Industries.

    Neighbors in this small community said Mr. Ratliff kept to himself. His wife and 2-year-old son lived in Kentucky. Until last week, Sheriff Thomas said he was called to the property only once, after neighbors heard gunfire.

    “As many of you already know I lost a close friend this week,” Mr. Myers wrote to his 1.1 million Facebook followers. “I ask only that you show respect to the situation for the family’s sake.”

    Dan Barry contributed reporting from New York.
    Emphasis mine.
    Last edited by EmperorNorton; 01-11-2013 at 03:32 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Just one thing: I do not mind if you shoot someone in self defense, but do you think simply pointing the gun and telling him to go would also have caused him to flee?
    This is a really dangerous line of thinking. Maybe he would have backed out of the house. Maybe he would have lunged forward knocking the gun out of her hands. What if he had been armed with something in addition to the crowbar? What if he had seen it as a sign of weakness? Maybe he would have had done any number of things, but when someone is in your home, you don't have time to go through the what if's.

    You just don't have the luxury of calmly and cooly going through your options and weighing what could be. Should she have tried to reason with him? Offer him a compromise? Hope that maybe he'll only take the life of one her children and then he'll grow tired of terrorizing them? She did the only thing you can do in that situation and assume the worst. She put the lives of her family and herself above her attacker, and she should be proud of having done so. I can't imagine it easy to pull the trigger, but if the choices are the safety and well being of those I love and an armed man with a crowbar, there can't be any hesitation. He loses every time.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    This is a really dangerous line of thinking. Maybe he would have backed out of the house. Maybe he would have lunged forward knocking the gun out of her hands. What if he had been armed with something in addition to the crowbar? What if he had seen it as a sign of weakness? Maybe he would have had done any number of things, but when someone is in your home, you don't have time to go through the what if's.

    You just don't have the luxury of calmly and cooly going through your options and weighing what could be. Should she have tried to reason with him? Offer him a compromise? Hope that maybe he'll only take the life of one her children and then he'll grow tired of terrorizing them? She did the only thing you can do in that situation and assume the worst. She put the lives of her family and herself above her attacker, and she should be proud of having done so. I can't imagine it easy to pull the trigger, but if the choices are the safety and well being of those I love and an armed man with a crowbar, there can't be any hesitation. He loses every time.
    Sure, in this case - but I remember cases where burglars were shot in the back as they were fleeing. Also, police regularly arrest people at gunpoint and only rarely shoot them (usually not even warning shots). Depends on the circumstances of course, but I don't think it's unreasonable to try and avoid violence. Of course, if he breaks into your room, is very close by, and presumably armed as in this case, I don't object.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  14. #14
    It's sooo wierd. I used to watch that guy on youtube. WTF, so sad. He made such funny comments, and had sweet gun videos.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    if u dont shoot him he wont lern his lessun
    Exactly.

    Plus you have the right to defend your property. This woman probably wasn't even thinking about her property, she was thinking about her kids. BUT even if she was just thinking about her property she has EVERY right to lethally defend what is hers.

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