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Thread: The Last to Fall

  1. #1

    Default The Last to Fall

    Canada’s last known Great War veteran, dies at age 109

    The last known First World War veteran who served Canada, John Babcock, has died at the age of 109, ending a link to the era when Canada came of age as a nation.

    Babcock, who enlisted at 15, never saw battle.

    Underage when he joined the 146th Battalion of the Canadian Expeditionary Force in Sydenham, Ont., he arrived in England a few months later and was transferred to reserve battalions.

    A Kitchener, Ont., farm boy, he ended up with the Boys Battalion in 1917, waiting until he turned 18 to go to the front lines. The war ended first, however.

    In a statement released late Thursday, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said: “I was deeply saddened to learn today of the death of John Babcock, Canada’s last known First World War veteran.

    “On behalf of all Canadians, I would like to extend my sincere condolences to Mr. Babcock’s family and friends. As a nation, we honour his service and mourn his passing,” he said.

    “The passing of Mr. Babcock marks the end of an era. His family mourns the passing of a great man. Canada mourns the passing of the generation that asserted our independence on the world stage and established our international reputation as an unwavering champion of freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law.”

    Babcock himself never dreamt he’d become a national symbol.

    But on Nov. 11, 2008, he symbolically passed a torch via video link from Spokane, Wash., where he made his home, to a Second World War veteran at the national Remembrance Day ceremony in Ottawa. Then the flame was handed, in turn, to a Korean War vet, to a retired peacekeeper and to a soldier who had returned from Afghanistan.

    "We must never forget our fallen comrades," Babcock said at the time. "I pass this torch of remembrance to my comrades. Hold it high."

    Born on July 23, 1900, Babcock was one of 650,000 Canadian men and women who served in the Canadian Forces during the First World War.

    “In honouring his service and mourning his passing, we honour the proud history of our country and pay tribute to all those who fought and died for Canada,” Harper said.

    Babcock was more modest about his wartime record.

    “My service didn’t amount to much,” he told the Ottawa Citizen in an interview just before Remembrance Day in 2003.

    “I enlisted when I was 15 1/2 years old. They were hard up for men then. They didn’t have the draft yet and they were relying on people enlisting.”

    It wasn’t long before they discovered his lie.

    “They said how old are you? I said 18,” he recalled. “So I went to England. I was in the 26th reserve. When my service record came through, though, they found out I was only 16. With 1,300 men underaged in the Canadian Army, they put them in the young soldiers’ battalion.”

    In interviews, the man known to friends and family as Jack credited his military training for instilling in him the values of discipline and honesty.

    In later years, he was much sought after by the media and shared his experience with youth in schools, to ensure that the contribution of those who served their country is remembered for all time.

    “Babcock is our last personal connection to a remarkable generation of Canadian heroes,” Harper’s statement added.

    For the keepers of Canadian heritage, such as Andrew Cohen, the fading away of the last soldiers who served during the war — a prelude to the eventual eclipse of the entire generation that lived through the 1914-18 conflict — presents a profound challenge for Canada’s collective memory.

    Cohen, president of the Historica-Dominion Institute, a leading promoter of Canadian identity, urged the federal government to hold a state funeral for Babcock.

    “A state funeral would be a fitting tribute not only to Mr. Babcock, but also to the more than 600,000 Canadians who served in the First World War, and especially those who died,” he said in a news release.

    Babcock has earned a special place in the pages of Canada’s past, and although he did not see action in the war, Cohen and fellow history advocate Rudyard Griffiths — founder of the newly merged Dominion Institute and author of Who We Are: A Citizen’s Manifesto — have repeatedly urged the Canadian government to mark his passing with a national period of commemoration.

    Babcock himself has said he would prefer a simple family memorial service to the proposed state funeral.

    However his death is marked, Babcock will soon take his place in the national lore alongside Canadians such Provo Wallis — the Halifax-born naval hero who outlived all other combatants from the War of 1812 — and George Ives, the last veteran of the Boer War.

    Some of Babcock’s recollections of the First World War can be found at a Veterans Affairs website.

    "It may become necessary for a young man or woman to join the military to defend their country," he said at one point. "I hope countries think long and hard before engaging in war, as many people get killed. What a waste . . . not to mention the relatives who are left to mourn."

    In some ways Babcock lived his life backwards.

    He finally received his high school diploma at the age of 95. When he was 103, he was considering taking a college course.

    When he returned to Canada after the war, he worked as a labourer in Ontario and Saskatchewan before moving to the U.S. where he joined the U.S. army in 1921.

    He left in 1924 and became an electrician and moved to Spokane in 1934.

    Married twice, Babcock met his first spouse, Elsie, in Oakland, Wash. The two were married for 44 years before she died. They had two children, a boy and a girl.

    Later, he worked in the oil business and then moved on to natural gas before operating his own business as a mechanical contractor. At the end of his career, he worked for his son’s waterworks equipment wholesale business and didn’t retire until he was 87.

    He married his second wife, Dorothy, in 1976.

    Funeral arrangements have not been announced.
    Vancouver Sun Source

    Hard to believe that there was still anyone alive who served in WW1. My grandmother lost 3 bothers in the Battle of the Somme who were killed within 20 minutes of each other in 3 different locations, along with over 100 more from her town in Scotland, Motherwell. She said that on that day almost the entire Motherwell soccer team died as only 2 survived.

    Have we learned anything from all these sacrifices of our forefathers? Likely not as we keep coming up with new ways to kill more people faster. Here's to John Babcock, the last remnant from a bygone age.

  2. #2
    Have we learned anything? Can you tell me when the last world war was?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It's not okay to shoot an innocent bank clerk but shooting a felon to death is commendable and do you should receive a reward rather than a punishment

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ImAnOgre View Post
    Have we learned anything? Can you tell me when the last world war was?
    I wasn't just referring to world wars. How many have died in "police actions" around the world in the last 65 years since the last "World War"?

  4. #4
    I'm betting not nearly as many have died in police actions since the last world war, as died in the last world war.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It's not okay to shoot an innocent bank clerk but shooting a felon to death is commendable and do you should receive a reward rather than a punishment

  5. #5


    I don't think he's referring just to "numbers", Ogre.

    Wasn't it recently the UK buried a vet who was 100+?

  6. #6
    GGT, BJD simply asked if we had learned anything.... from my post it seems we have learned a lot.

    As far as developing weapons that can kill millions, there are always going to be crazies, and until such time as there is a one world government, nations are going to have to have a way to defend themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It's not okay to shoot an innocent bank clerk but shooting a felon to death is commendable and do you should receive a reward rather than a punishment

  7. #7
    BJD? You make me sound like a sandwich. Thanks IAO.

  8. #8
    No, Ogre, we haven't learned anything. The polarization of the globe that took place after World War Two also meant that the storm of a third world war would, probably very literally, end the human species, not to mention wreak havoc with the rest of the biosphere. Loonies with their loony logic could no longer justify things escalating to the point of war, because only after the invent of the atomic spark did we finally guarantee that the loonies themselves wouldn't have a world to lord over after the bombs fell. Less developed nations still engage in full-scale "classical" warfare, and it is not even two decades since the last mass-scale genocide on European soil. And your nation wages perpetual war because apparently Vietnam was fun times for everybody.

    What has anyone learned? Certainly nothing from the mistakes of generations before them. Death and torture are the only sure-fire professions in this world, if you have the knack for them.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  9. #9
    When when we ever learn, when will we ever learn?

    Sing-along, follow the bouncing ball, fun for the whole family!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    No, Ogre, we haven't learned anything. The polarization of the globe that took place after World War Two also meant that the storm of a third world war would, probably very literally, end the human species, not to mention wreak havoc with the rest of the biosphere. Loonies with their loony logic could no longer justify things escalating to the point of war, because only after the invent of the atomic spark did we finally guarantee that the loonies themselves wouldn't have a world to lord over after the bombs fell. Less developed nations still engage in full-scale "classical" warfare, and it is not even two decades since the last mass-scale genocide on European soil. And your nation wages perpetual war because apparently Vietnam was fun times for everybody.

    What has anyone learned? Certainly nothing from the mistakes of generations before them. Death and torture are the only sure-fire professions in this world, if you have the knack for them.
    Your negativity clouds your otherwise competent mind. You want everything to be horrible, regardless of what is. Its the same with your screwy idea that all life is a mechanism of destruction because it eats.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    When when we ever learn, when will we ever learn?

    Sing-along, follow the bouncing ball, fun for the whole family!
    Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
    We're finally on our own.
    This summer I hear the drumming,
    Four dead in Ohio.

    Gotta get down to it
    Soldiers are gunning us down
    Should have been done long ago.
    What if you knew her
    And found her dead on the ground
    How can you run when you know?

    Tin soldiers and Nixon coming,
    We're finally on our own.
    This summer I hear the drumming,
    Four dead in Ohio.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Your negativity clouds your otherwise competent mind. You want everything to be horrible, regardless of what is. Its the same with your screwy idea that all life is a mechanism of destruction because it eats.
    *shrug* I could turn the argument around and say that you have to disagree with my "screwy" ideas because you so desperately want them to be wrong, so that your children have a bright and happy future to expect in a world that is, on the whole, beautiful and fair. Neither are good arguments, because they're not really arguments at all. It's just ad hominem.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    *shrug* I could turn the argument around and say that you have to disagree with my "screwy" ideas because you so desperately want them to be wrong, so that your children have a bright and happy future to expect in a world that is, on the whole, beautiful and fair. Neither are good arguments, because they're not really arguments at all. It's just ad hominem.
    #1. Who said anything about fair? Nothing at all is fair, ever was fair, or ever can be fair.

    #2. If you look at what went on in WW2 by the "good guys"; like fire bombing cities all over Europe and Japan that had no validity as a military target. Creating fire storms out of populated cities, god. Look at the blatant indiscriminate killing of people in every urban battle across the world in that war.... Yeah, war still happens. Genocide still happens in some places. But the Powers don't do things like that anymore, (except maybe in Russia - if you consider them a Powr) for whatever reason. Probably too much communication.

    #3. Have some children. It might give you something you can hope for.

    #4. Many parts of the world are beautiful. Not even you can deny that.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  13. #13
    I'll defer to lillo's judgment and say that you just want every thread to be about you. You don't even bother to read what other people post, let alone consider the merits of their arguments.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I'll defer to lillo's judgment and say that you just want every thread to be about you. You don't even bother to read what other people post, let alone consider the merits of their arguments.
    I read your post. I think you're wrong. You say we've learned nothing and that the only reason we don't burn cities anymore is because of Nukes and the Cold War. Well news flash, the US carpet bombed the shit out of North Vietnam and Cambodia during the height of the cold war. Today we're occupying two itty bitting countries with no Nuclear Power standing in our way, and we've been on pretty damn good behavior by comparison. There, your theory is directly contradicted. What are you going to post now, that I just don't understand what you wrote? Again? How many times can you hide behind that one?
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I read your post. I think you're wrong. You say we've learned nothing and that the only reason we don't burn cities anymore is because of Nukes and the Cold War. Well news flash, the US carpet bombed the shit out of North Vietnam and Cambodia during the height of the cold war. Today we're occupying two itty bitting countries with no Nuclear Power standing in our way, and we've been on pretty damn good behavior by comparison. There, your theory is directly contradicted. What are you going to post now, that I just don't understand what you wrote? Again? How many times can you hide behind that one?
    Well you leave me little choice, since you seem to be strawmanning me pretty hard there.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Well you leave me little choice, since you seem to be strawmanning me pretty hard there.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImAnOgre View Post
    Have we learned anything? Can you tell me when the last world war was?
    No, Ogre, we haven't learned anything. The polarization of the globe that took place after World War Two also meant that the storm of a third world war would, probably very literally, end the human species, not to mention wreak havoc with the rest of the biosphere. Loonies with their loony logic could no longer justify things escalating to the point of war, because only after the invent of the atomic spark did we finally guarantee that the loonies themselves wouldn't have a world to lord over after the bombs fell. Less developed nations still engage in full-scale "classical" warfare, and it is not even two decades since the last mass-scale genocide on European soil. And your nation wages perpetual war because apparently Vietnam was fun times for everybody.

    What has anyone learned? Certainly nothing from the mistakes of generations before them. Death and torture are the only sure-fire professions in this world, if you have the knack for them.
    No, there hasn't been a hot world war since the building of nukes. And the reason for that is certainly in large part because of the nukes themselves. Nobody wants to see everyone die. So if you want to strictly talk about the reasons there's been no global war since, then that could be put out there as a simplistic answer. I doubt its the only reason, but I don't care to argue that point.

    However, your post clearly extrapolates from Ogre's specific - when's the last time there's been a world war - statement to include all sorts of other human cruelties (Dont' even try to deny it either). "What has anyone learned?" "Death and torture are the only sure fire professions..." (You left out farming and prostitution, btw) Many many people have learned an awful lot. To deny the world is overall less cruel and violent today than it was 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 on and on years ago is to stare at a clear mid day summer sky and declare its green. It may SEEM as cruel today, but that's almost certainly because you know more about what goes on today by virtue of improved communication. It's that same improvement that's drug the beast into the light and helped halt a lot of our cruelty. Why? Because if they know whats going on, most people won't stand for torturing people, burning cities down, slaughtering entire ethnicities. People are better than you say.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  17. #17
    I'm glad for you that you're able to believe that
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I'm glad for you that you're able to believe that
    Its the truth; the evidence is clear. You should believe that; you're a scientist ffs.

    People have not changed nor do they learn, on balance, much of anything different from the ideas their cultures frame for them. But culture has evovled to be, on balance, less tolerant of the horrors of our past. That could change. Lots of people in the US want it to change - take Lewkowski for example. He wants a more cruel America with all his christian heart.

    EDIT: Really, talking about this evolution of culture toward less violence and cruelty should not be in the context of learning. It sounds nice, like literature, but that's not analagous to whats going on.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  19. #19
    Knowledge isn't the truth; just because you think something doesn't make it true. I cannot and will not manufacture some arithmetic of suffering and calculus of morality for the benefit of this thread, or at all, and we cannot really say anything tangible about the betterment of the species. I understand that you want to think so, and I'm happy that you can, but that isn't an argument in and of itself.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  20. #20
    Different song, same refrain

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Knowledge isn't the truth; just because you think something doesn't make it true.
    And yet you embrace your own personal darkness as the truth for all of humanity based on nothing more than just because you think it.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  22. #22
    If you say so, so it must be!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    And yet you embrace your own personal darkness as the truth for all of humanity based on nothing more than just because you think it.
    Yet, you post based on just what you think humanity is. We all do.

    Why did you turn this into an argument with Nessie instead of what have we learned from our history of war?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    If you say so, so it must be!
    You said it. "Knowledge isn't the truth; " with those words you reject any evidence that humanity is a lot less cruel to each other today than at any time in recorded history in favor of "I think humanity is as horrible as ever so its true."

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Yet, you post based on just what you think humanity is. We all do.

    Why did you turn this into an argument with Nessie instead of what have we learned from our history of war?
    Ness said we've learned nothing from the wars and we're just as bad to each other as we've always been. That's flatly false. Maybe I'm just getting tired of the doom and gloom. Life, people, the world isn't that bad. Yeah, there's lots of fucked up shit going on everywhere all the time. But there's lots of wonderful shit going on too. And the fucked up shit that is going on isn't as bad as what we used to do to each other. We've come a long way.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  25. #25
    Had you shown any of this evidence that warms your cockles, we might have a discussion. Unfortunately, we are stuck at repetitive ad hominem.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Had you shown any of this evidence that warms your cockles, we might have a discussion. Unfortunately, we are stuck at repetitive ad hominem.
    Nobody bombs cities indiscriminately anymore in any war the way they did in the last world war. And that's not because we haven't had a world war, only 'police actions,' because in Vietnam the US indiscriminately bombed the shit out of North Vietnam.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    You ....Life, people, the world isn't that bad. Yeah, there's lots of fucked up shit going on everywhere all the time. But there's lots of wonderful shit going on too. And the fucked up shit that is going on isn't as bad as what we used to do to each other. We've come a long way.
    Our standards of living are higher, we are supposedly more civilized. Yet WAR is still part of our lives. It just presents differently and looks more stylized. Surgical strikes. Scalpels instead of hammers.

    In that vein Nessus is right---we have learned amazing things, but not enough to NOT have constant warring somehow somewhere, with someone about something. It not only looks different and new, but we get to watch it all the time in new ways.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Wasn't it recently the UK buried a vet who was 100+?
    The UK still has a vet who's 106.

    WW1 survivor celebrates 106th birthday



    One of the few surviving veterans of World War One has been celebrating his 106th birthday, at his home in Wiltshire.

    Captain Kenneth Cummins, who lives at Great Bedwyn, near Marlborough, is in fact - at this time - the only serviceman alive to have served in BOTH World Wars.

    Kenneth was in the Royal Navy in the First World War, and was a Midshipman on HMS Maria.

    He then served in the Merchant Navy in the Second where he survived the torpedoing of his ship the Viceroy of India owned by P&O but used by the military.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Our standards of living are higher, we are supposedly more civilized. Yet WAR is still part of our lives. It just presents differently and looks more stylized. Surgical strikes. Scalpels instead of hammers.

    In that vein Nessus is right---we have learned amazing things, but not enough to NOT have constant warring somehow somewhere, with someone about something. It not only looks different and new, but we get to watch it all the time in new ways.
    No, in that vein Nessus is wrong. Scalpals are much better than hammers. And the will and recognized need to go to the scalpal when a hammer is so much easier, and cheaper, represents a cultural improvement. Nessus said we've learned nothing, and not just in regards to global war. But we have. We have.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  30. #30
    Rate of war between 1914 and 1945: 3.3% in a given year between a set of relevant countries
    Rate of war between 1946 and 2000: 0.5%

    Rate of war between 1914 and 1945 in Europe: 4.7%
    Rate of war between 1946 and 2000 in Europe: 0.2%

    Needless to say, the fatality figures are down even more.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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