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Thread: Gun Ownership & Gun Control

  1. #1

    Default Gun Ownership & Gun Control

    So, in an attempt to have a thread on this debate with something a little more high-brow than the 'ZOMG GREAT STORY CRIMINAL GETS SHOT OLOL!1' rantings of a hormonal teenager ...

    ... I came across this piece in The Economist, which firstly sums up my view quite succinctly, particularly his conclusion, and secondly raises a few points which may warrant further discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Economist
    The gun control that works: no guns
    Dec 15th 2012, 4:56 ..

    I HESITATE to offer thoughts about the school shooting in Connecticut that has seen 20 children and seven adults murdered and the gunman also dead. Your correspondent has been in the rural Midwest researching a column and heard the news on the car radio. Along with a sense of gloom, I found I mostly wanted to see my own, elementary-school-age children back home in Washington, DC, and had little desire to listen to pundits of any stripe: hence my reluctance to weigh in now.

    To be fair, on NPR, the liberal columnist E.J. Dionne had sensible things to say about President Barack Obama’s statement on the killings, and how it was probably significant when the president seemed to suggest that he was minded to take action on gun control, and never mind the politics. On the same show the moderate conservative columnist, David Brooks, expressed sensible caution about assuming that stricter gun controls could have stopped this particular shooting.[1]

    Switching to red-blooded conservative talk radio, I found two hosts offering a “move along, nothing to see here” defence of the status quo. One suggested that listeners should not torment themselves trying to understand “craziness”, though it would, the pair agreed, be understandable if some parents were tempted to remove their children from public education and homeschool them.

    To that debate, all I can offer is the perspective of someone who has lived and worked in different corners of the world, with different gun laws.

    Here is my small thought. It is quite possible, perhaps probable, that stricter gun laws of the sort that Mr Obama may or may not be planning, would not have stopped the horrible killings of this morning. But that is a separate question from whether it is a good idea to allow private individuals to own guns. And that, really, is what I think I understand by gun control. Once you have guns in circulation, in significant numbers, I suspect that specific controls on things like automatic weapons or large magazines can have only marginal effects. [2] Once lots of other people have guns, it becomes rational for you to want your own too.

    The first time that I was posted to Washington, DC some years ago, the capital and suburbs endured a frightening few days at the hands of a pair of snipers, who took to killing people at random from a shooting position they had established in the boot of a car. I remember meeting a couple of White House correspondents from American papers, and hearing one say: but the strange thing is that Maryland (where most of the killings were taking place) has really strict gun laws. And I remember thinking: from the British perspective, those aren’t strict gun laws. Strict laws involve having no guns. [3]

    After a couple of horrible mass shootings in Britain, handguns and automatic weapons have been effectively banned. It is possible to own shotguns, and rifles if you can demonstrate to the police that you have a good reason to own one, such as target shooting at a gun club, or deer stalking, say. The firearms-ownership rules are onerous, involving hours of paperwork. You must provide a referee who has to answer nosy questions about the applicant's mental state, home life (including family or domestic tensions) and their attitude towards guns. In addition to criminal-record checks, the police talk to applicants’ family doctors and ask about any histories of alcohol or drug abuse or personality disorders.

    Vitally, it is also very hard to get hold of ammunition. Just before leaving Britain in the summer, I had lunch with a member of parliament whose constituency is plagued with gang violence and drug gangs. She told me of a shooting, and how it had not led to a death, because the gang had had to make its own bullets, which did not work well, and how this was very common, according to her local police commander. [4] Even hardened criminals willing to pay for a handgun in Britain are often getting only an illegally modified starter’s pistol turned into a single-shot weapon.

    And, to be crude, having few guns does mean that few people get shot. In 2008-2009, there were 39 fatal injuries from crimes involving firearms in England and Wales, with a population about one sixth the size of America’s. In America, there were 12,000 gun-related homicides in 2008. [5]

    I would also say, to stick my neck out a bit further, that I find many of the arguments advanced for private gun ownership in America a bit unconvincing, and tinged with a blend of excessive self-confidence and faulty risk perception.

    I am willing to believe that some householders, in some cases, have defended their families from attack because they have been armed. But I also imagine that lots of ordinary adults, if woken in the night by an armed intruder, lack the skill to wake, find their weapon, keep hold of their weapon, use it correctly and avoid shooting the wrong person. And my hunch is that the model found in places like Japan or Britain—no guns in homes at all, or almost none—is on balance safer.

    As for the National Rifle Association bumper stickers arguing that only an armed citizenry can prevent tyranny, I wonder if that isn’t a form of narcissism, involving the belief that lone, heroic individuals will have the ability to identify tyranny as it descends, recognise it for what it is, and fight back. There is also the small matter that I don’t think America is remotely close to becoming a tyranny, and to suggest that it is is both irrational and a bit offensive to people who actually do live under tyrannical rule. [6]

    Nor is it the case that the British are relaxed about being subjects of a monarch, or are less fussed about freedoms. A conservative law professor was recently quoted in the papers saying he did not want to live in a country where the police were armed and the citizens not. I fear in Britain, at least, native gun-distrust goes even deeper than that: the British don’t even like their police to be armed (though more of them are than in the past).

    But here is the thing. The American gun debate takes place in America, not Britain or Japan. And banning all guns is not about to happen (and good luck collecting all 300m guns currently in circulation, should such a law be passed). [7] It would also not be democratic. I personally dislike guns. I think the private ownership of guns is a tragic mistake. But a majority of Americans disagree with me, some of them very strongly. And at a certain point, when very large majorities disagree with you, a bit of deference is in order.

    So in short I am not sure that tinkering with gun control will stop horrible massacres like today’s. And I am pretty sure that the sort of gun control that would work—banning all guns—is not going to happen. So I have a feeling that even a more courageous debate than has been heard for some time, with Mr Obama proposing gun-control laws that would have been unthinkable in his first term, will not change very much at all. [8] Hence the gloom. [9]
    Bits boldened for discussion:
    [1] ... expressed sensible caution about assuming that stricter gun controls could have stopped this particular shooting.
    [2] Once you have guns in circulation, in significant numbers, I suspect that specific controls on things like automatic weapons or large magazines can have only marginal effects.
    & [8] ... Mr Obama proposing gun-control laws that would have been unthinkable in his first term, will not change very much at all.

    Sounds likely to me.
    Hand-wringing over banning this type of automatic weapon or that type of magazine will have little overall effect on the massive gun-death rate in the US.
    The appetite for any significant control measures on the huge number of guns in circulation simply does not exist, either among the politicians nor the populace at large.


    [3] ... but the strange thing is that Maryland (where most of the killings were taking place) has really strict gun laws. And I remember thinking: from the British perspective, those aren’t strict gun laws. Strict laws involve having no guns.
    Indeed. Speaks for itself.
    As above, there is no appetite for reaching for a 'no-gun' scenario.


    [4] I had lunch with a member of parliament whose constituency is plagued with gang violence and drug gangs. She told me of a shooting, and how it had not led to a death, because the gang had had to make its own bullets, which did not work well, and how this was very common, according to her local police commander.
    An interesting point that I had not considered. It's not just control of the supply of firearms that limits the potential for death and injury, it's the supply of the ammunition too.


    [5] And, to be crude, having few guns does mean that few people get shot. In 2008-2009, there were 39 fatal injuries from crimes involving firearms in England and Wales, with a population about one sixth the size of America’s. In America, there were 12,000 gun-related homicides in 2008.
    So to factor in the population differential, that's a comparison of 39 to ~2000, or 1 to 51.3.
    IOW, you are 50 times more likely to be shot in the US than you are in the UK as a result of criminal action.
    I'll leave out the statistics concerning death due to firearms not as a result of criminal action as they are not included in this piece, however;
    Fewer guns = less people getting shot. Is there agreement on that fact, at its most basic level?


    [6] There is also the small matter that I don’t think America is remotely close to becoming a tyranny, and to suggest that it is is both irrational and a bit offensive to people who actually do live under tyrannical rule.
    This is the one defense of the firearm that is indeed utterly laughable. That an armed populace will prevent the rise of tyranny in modern America, or will allow the overthrow of a tyrannical government should it come to pass in modern America. America is a democracy.


    [7] But here is the thing. The American gun debate takes place in America, not Britain or Japan. And banning all guns is not about to happen (and good luck collecting all 300m guns currently in circulation, should such a law be passed).
    Sums up the status quo. Where America is at, and where it will remain for the foreseeable ...


    [9]Hence the gloom.
    Hence the gloom.
    Last edited by Timbuk2; 03-05-2013 at 02:21 PM.

  2. #2
    I like this, it's rational. I can certainly understand why someone would want to own a gun for sport and some people really do live off the land or need guns for protection (many places in Alaska). However I think it's safe to assume that no one needs to lay down suppression fire while hunting. I see no problem with owning a firearm as long as you go through a rigorous process that Britain employs to help the mentally ill from obtaining firearms either. I also believe that people should be able to own anything that falls under the definition of "assault rifle" but they should only be allowed to purchase and use ammunition at gun ranges.

    The problem however is that Britain doesn't have a whole continent of drug cartels just south of it. The Mexican mafia and various cartels are always going to be a threat with selling guns on the black market in the United States and this creates a problem of safety for citizens. Gun-nuts (not pro-gun advocates) are always citing South Africa and its gun regulations or Switzerland where almost everyone owns a gun as an argument against regulations and pro-gun ownership. What they fail to take into account is the real argument, which a prestigious politician needs to emphasize. We want gun control because we don't want to be victims of mass shootings. The problem isn't gang violence, it's the safety of the suburbs and this is what the gun laws are meant to help us with. Gang activity and drug cartels are another battle altogether. One which may very soon be won with the legalization of marijuana. Give people the regulated and harmless drug that they want and sell it from official businesses, then people aren't going to buy cocaine and kill each other in the streets for it. You're going to destroy the reason most gangs now exist and you're going to completely hit the cartels where it hurts most. They're going to lose their power and the governments of the countries they operate in will have no incentive to keep them around. Not only do you fix much of the violence in the United States, but in South and Central America as well.

    As for South Africa and Switzerland, these are poor examples to contribute to pro-gun ownership. South Africa is infamous for its murder-rate but it's a country that still has segregation issues and a huge lobby against gun control that has completely gutted the laws in regard to guns and stopped relevant legislation from being passed. Any country that still has segregation issues isn't a prime example for anything positive either.

    And Switzerland? The Swiss aren't killing each other because everyone owns a gun... the Swiss aren't killing each other because they have a good healthcare system and a high standard of living.
    Praise the man who seeks the truth, but run from the one who has found it.

  3. #3
    IMO, this is why the US needs coordinated federal gun registration, with a comprehensive data base. Until then, guns will continue to find their way from one state (with lax laws) to another (with stricter laws).

    It's pretty obvious the US isn't going to have border inspection posts to police car trunks, truck cargo, or bus/train luggage to catch "legal" guns moving across state lines into "illegal" territory.

    Some suggestions I've read include making gun manufacturers responsible for their product, similar to the tobacco industry. Or requiring gun buyers to also buy a liability (or indemnity?) insurance product.

    Not sure what we'll do about 3-D printers, where computers are fast becoming a way to manufacture any manner of tool, weapon, or ammunition....in the privacy of our own homes.


  4. #4
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    You never seem to see the flip side of Federal power.

    A Federal law overriding all State law could also mean a weaker law than some of the States. If CCW became federally allowed then some States might not be able to prevent them. Is that what you want?
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  5. #5
    Wait, first explain to me what's flawed or wrong in a federal registry for gun purchases.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Wait, first explain to me what's flawed or wrong in a federal registry for gun purchases.
    First explain to me what you think it is going to do to get guns out of the hands of criminals.

  7. #7
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Wait, first explain to me what's flawed or wrong in a federal registry for gun purchases.
    Nope, I asked you first.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    Quite.

    A car is designed to transport people from A to B. A gun is designed to kill.

    The tired old 'cars kill more than guns' argument has always been invalid.
    It's far from invalid. Policymakers must look at relevant metrics whenever possible. The fact is, on a per capita basis, driving kills more people. And the vast majority of legal guns do not kill people.

    Laws should focus on regulating the sale, resale, use and storage of guns. Just like laws focus on the sale, resale, use and storage of cars. Or natural gas. Or raw sewage. Or any other remotely dangerous thing in this world.

  9. #9
    Ok. I'm going to try this from another approach.

    Remove all cars from the United States. What happens?

    Remove all guns from the United States. What happens?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    First explain to me what you think it is going to do to get guns out of the hands of criminals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Nope, I asked you first.
    I wasn't referring to concealed carry laws, but a federal registry. That can mean any number of things, from registering the firearm and/or ammunition, attaching it to licensed dealers inventory, or registering the buyer/user. At the very least, a database of all new firearms manufactured would be a good start. As it stands now, we only have estimates of total number of guns in circulation. Last I checked it was around 300 million and only stands to grow with time.

    Seems to me we should get a grip before we have half a billion guns floating around the US.

  11. #11
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    And this registry would be use for...?
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    I wasn't referring to concealed carry laws, but a federal registry. That can mean any number of things, from registering the firearm and/or ammunition, attaching it to licensed dealers inventory, or registering the buyer/user. At the very least, a database of all new firearms manufactured would be a good start. As it stands now, we only have estimates of total number of guns in circulation. Last I checked it was around 300 million and only stands to grow with time.

    Seems to me we should get a grip before we have half a billion guns floating around the US.
    First explain to me what you think it is going to do to get guns out of the hands of criminals.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    To put it crudely, I think you've sailed past that point. The argument is that even if it's hard to get guns legally, criminals will still get theirs illegally, right? While I'm sure that's true now, illegal guns started legal at some point. IIRC most guns used in the Mexican drug wars were at some point legally bought in the USA. So tightening supply will also decrease the number of guns available to criminals. Downside is that you have (if GGT is correct) nearly half a billion guns in circulation already, so there's that. Or, to quote the OP:
    Once lots of other people have guns, it becomes rational for you to want your own too.
    Last edited by Flixy; 03-06-2013 at 03:04 PM.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  14. #14
    Indeed, were some hypothetical politician ever to pass a ban on all firearms, the 'outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns' idea holds true for a while, until, over many years, all guns held both legally and illegally were removed from circulation.

    Trouble with that is, legal gun-owners naturally don't want to be in that 'only outlaws have guns' transition period.

  15. #15
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Along with many non gun owers..
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  16. #16

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    Ok. I'm going to try this from another approach.

    Remove all cars from the United States. What happens?

    Remove all guns from the United States. What happens?
    Lots of illegal cars.

    Lots of illegal guns.

    The US has failed miserably at keeping drugs and illegal immigrants out of the country, and yet you think it would do a good job of keeping out guns? What ever happened to the "if a dangerous substance is in high demand, you're best of regulating, not banning, it"?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #18
    Try:

    Cars removed, chaos ensues, people can't get to work, economy shrinks in the short to medium term. Country in some respects fails to operate.

    Guns removed, nothing much happens at all. The homicide rate plummets.

    Clue: Most other western countries have a near-equal per-capita rate of cars as the US. Most other western countries have very few guns.

    Conclusion: One is a necessity in the modern world. The other most certainly is not.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    but the strange thing is that Maryland (where most of the killings were taking place) has really strict gun laws.
    Isn't that a bit of a moot point when you acn so easily cross state lines anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    I am willing to believe that some householders, in some cases, have defended their families from attack because they have been armed. But I also imagine that lots of ordinary adults, if woken in the night by an armed intruder, lack the skill to wake, find their weapon, keep hold of their weapon, use it correctly and avoid shooting the wrong person. And my hunch is that the model found in places like Japan or Britain—no guns in homes at all, or almost none—is on balance safer.
    Sounds reasonable, but for me a bigger issue is: if people often have firearms, burglars will probably carry one too. And if they can expect to be shot at, you can expect them to shoot back. Further, when people throw around numbers of crimes stopped by people using firearms - over here almost nobody has a gun, but burglars who are interrupted still almost always run. Criminals like that don't expect to be interrupted (they choose targets based on that) and simply being around scares almost all of them off. Even if caught, being caught for burglary is a lot better than being caught for assault (plus fighting leaves a lot more evidence that can get you caught in the first place). Even crimes like assault or rape are usually aborted when there are bystanders or the victim struggles. There's less chance of that when the criminal has a gun, and the criminal is less likely to have a gun if the average victim is unarmed. And another thing is, if the guy has an illegal gun, if you can't prove the other crime you still have the illegal weapons charge. Compare it to getting Capone for tax evasion if you can't prove the other crimes. Makes carrying a weapon a lot less appealing to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    As for the National Rifle Association bumper stickers arguing that only an armed citizenry can prevent tyranny, I wonder if that isn’t a form of narcissism, involving the belief that lone, heroic individuals will have the ability to identify tyranny as it descends, recognise it for what it is, and fight back. There is also the small matter that I don’t think America is remotely close to becoming a tyranny, and to suggest that it is is both irrational and a bit offensive to people who actually do live under tyrannical rule. [6]
    Agreed, plus, an armed citizenry to prevent tyranny? Yeah, right. How often do well armed criminals (even in groups) ever win a standoff with the police? They usually don't even kill SWAT team members (FBI HRT has only had training related casualties, for example). Looking at sieges like Waco, there are few police deaths compared to their targets, and that's with far more restrictive ROE than the military uses. And looking at other countries with insurrection against tyrannical governments, they don't have any success until (parts of) the military defects, outside sources provide them with weapons, and government caches are raided. When I asked this question a while back on these forums, I don't remember who, but the gun supporter who replied agreed that you'd need (parts of) the military to join your side - which makes the armed population part a bit moot since you will have that then anyway.

    Further I think it creates a bit of a weird situation where the constitution appears to encourage picking up weapons against (perceived) tyrannical government, while at the same time this is considered terrorism. Let's face it, there are people who consider the US government tyrannical, just take the type of language that can be seen on certain tv channels, blogs, etc., and then think how a crazy fringe might take messages like 'they can take it from my cold dead hands', thinking it's their constitutional duty to take that literally.

    In fact, I think a lot more aspects of your gun laws are weird like that: for example, on the one hand you have the castle doctrine saying you can shoot people who break into your home, but on the other hand you have no-knock warrants, and shooting at a cop is a serious offense. That seems a bit conflicting to me..

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    But here is the thing. The American gun debate takes place in America, not Britain or Japan. And banning all guns is not about to happen (and good luck collecting all 300m guns currently in circulation, should such a law be passed).
    Good point, though that doesn't stop me from writing my opinion on how things should be Since I don't live in a country bordering yours, it doesn't really impact me, so I can just say you bring it on yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by Knux897 View Post
    The problem however is that Britain doesn't have a whole continent of drug cartels just south of it. The Mexican mafia and various cartels are always going to be a threat with selling guns on the black market in the United States and this creates a problem of safety for citizens.
    Where do you think those guns come from in the first place? A large number of illegal guns in Mexico were bought in US gun stores. The Mexican situation does show that strict gun laws (over there it's very hard to purchase a legal gun) are useless if there's already a lot of guns in the country though (or if you can easily smuggle them in or steal them from the military/police).

    Quote Originally Posted by Knux897 View Post
    And Switzerland? The Swiss aren't killing each other because everyone owns a gun... the Swiss aren't killing each other because they have a good healthcare system and a high standard of living.
    Or, it could because they used to only supply a very limited supply of (sealed) ammunition and for a few years now do not supply ammunition at all, and brought back the ammunition already at militia member's houses, ammunition is sold at gun ranges but also has to be used at that gun range. Further, to keep your guns after military service you need to have a license, and while you're in the military they are very strict about how to handle it (improper use is an offense and is strictly enforced). And you're generally not allowed to carry your gun, serial numbers etc are recorded, and sales of munitions is also recorded. All in all not a very encouraging situation for criminals to get guns. Oh, and even there gun ownership is about half of that in the USA. So yeah, it's not really a good comparison.

    Plus, the argument that the guns are used in self defense and are a deterrent to crime there, which is why it's so law, is somewhat flawed by the fact that most guns don't have ammunition nearby, or in the case of the government issued ammunition, that you're only allowed to open it when ordered by the government.

    This does remind of another question I have: most states require your guns to be in a gun safe, right? I imagine most of those are in places like garages - how is that useful for self defense when you're in your bedroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    A Federal law overriding all State law could also mean a weaker law than some of the States. If CCW became federally allowed then some States might not be able to prevent them. Is that what you want?
    Err, correct me if I'm wrong but surely federal laws can set a minimum, no? I.e. the federal government can ban and regulate certain things, but that leaves it to the state if they want to add additional bans or regulations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    And this registry would be use for...?
    I would imagine for tracing guns used in crimes, but while I am not knowledgeable about things like this, tv shows and films often mention things like removing serial numbers, how easy is that in reality?
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The US has failed miserably at keeping drugs and illegal immigrants out of the country, and yet you think it would do a good job of keeping out guns? What ever happened to the "if a dangerous substance is in high demand, you're best of regulating, not banning, it"?
    I'm cool with regulating it for recreational use, like drugs

    And there's the fact that A) most guns in your area are from the USA to begin with, which makes it a bit easier to keep them out of the country since they won't be there in the first place B) such a significant decrease in supply will drive up the prices a lot which means your average criminal won't have one. Will the mafia and drug cartels still have (some) firepower? Sure. But all in all, that's not the kind of criminals people keep guns at home for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    Try:

    Cars removed, chaos ensues, people can't get to work, economy shrinks in the short to medium term. Country in some respects fails to operate.

    Guns removed, nothing much happens at all. The homicide rate plummets.

    Clue: Most other western countries have a near-equal per-capita rate of cars as the US. Most other western countries have very few guns.

    Conclusion: One is a necessity in the modern world. The other most certainly is not.
    Don't forget cars are also designed to keep people alive, not to kill them. Bumpers etc are designed to minimize damage to people you hit, and the entire car is designed to keep you alive. And the more dangerous vehicles (trucks etc) are speed limited, by the way. And compare the number of murders committed by cars with the number of murders committed by guns - I can think of only very few instances of murder with a car.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    To put it crudely, I think you've sailed past that point. The argument is that even if it's hard to get guns legally, criminals will still get theirs illegally, right? While I'm sure that's true now, illegal guns started legal at some point. IIRC most guns used in the Mexican drug wars were at some point legally bought in the USA. So tightening supply will also decrease the number of guns available to criminals. Downside is that you have (if GGT is correct) nearly half a billion guns in circulation already, so there's that. Or, to quote the OP:
    I'm not entirely sure who you're responding to, but I don't think a gun registry, as it has been proposed, would make it more difficult to get guns legally. It would mean you might be able to track back purchases after the fact, but nothing in the a gun registry would prevent many mass shooters from getting their firearms. It also wouldn't stop criminals, who could buy guns on the black market or steal them. So, career criminals, who commit the vast majority of gun related crime would not be impacted by such a measure, and mass shooters would not either.

    I also doubt that the reason that Mexican cartels get their guns from the United States is because they wouldn't be able to get them otherwise, but instead they are getting a much better quality firearm. I don't think the same cartels who can free over a hundred prisoners from a guarded prison, and count their thugs among the police and military, would be unable to obtain firearms from alternate sources.

  21. #21
    Consider Switzerland. They have conscription there, resulting in almost every male past a certain age being given a gun and keeping it in his home. It's also less restrictive about purchasing weapons than many parts of the US. As a result, they have one of the highest rates of gun ownership per capita in the world.

    Their homicide rate is 0.7 per 100k per year.

    UK's homicide rate is 1.2 per 100k per year.

    Conclusion: Give everyone in the UK a gun, and homicide rates will drop almost by half.

    Or, maybe it's not nearly that simple.

    More seriously: I've made the point before and will stand by it - if you want to stop violent crime, looking at gun restrictions/bans in the US has proven to be one of the least effective ways to do this. Our efforts are better focused elsewhere. Looking for ways to better enforce existing laws might be a good start. There are also still a lot of groups who won't talk to the police if they witness a crime, which means the crimes keep happening over and over. A lot of the problems are cultural, and I'm not sure how we can solve them. But I don't think gun ownership and low levels of violence are at all mutually exclusive.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Consider Switzerland. They have conscription there
    required training and responsible behavior before giving people the ability to own a gun is always a good thing. Thats what I brought up the last time the gun debate came up.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    required training and responsible behavior before giving people the ability to own a gun is always a good thing. Thats what I brought up the last time the gun debate came up.
    Many states do have that requirement already, and I'm not convinced mandatory training nation-wide would have a big impact on intentional gun violence. There are about 600 accidental deaths per year in the US, or 0.2 per 100,000. That's the number that mandatory training would be attacking.

    I also don't see required training being a big deal, either. If that's the proposal, I wouldn't really fight it.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Many states do have that requirement already, and I'm not convinced mandatory training nation-wide would have a big impact on intentional gun violence. There are about 600 accidental deaths per year in the US, or 0.2 per 100,000. That's the number that mandatory training would be attacking.

    I also don't see required training being a big deal, either. If that's the proposal, I wouldn't really fight it.
    It would also cut down incidents that involved stolen guns thanks to improper storage.

    I know some states required it for concealed carry, but I don't know which if any require training to simply own a gun
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 03-06-2013 at 11:51 PM.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    More seriously: I've made the point before and will stand by it - if you want to stop violent crime, looking at gun restrictions/bans in the US has proven to be one of the least effective ways to do this. Our efforts are better focused elsewhere. Looking for ways to better enforce existing laws might be a good start. There are also still a lot of groups who won't talk to the police if they witness a crime, which means the crimes keep happening over and over. A lot of the problems are cultural, and I'm not sure how we can solve them. But I don't think gun ownership and low levels of violence are at all mutually exclusive.
    Ditto. I've read a decent amount of criminology literature on the determinants of crime rates, and gun laws had little if any effect. Incidentally, the death penalty is usually shown to decrease murders, but not by enough for that to truly be a reason to adopt the policy (I support it on moral grounds). Societal factors (inequality and to a lesser extent, male unemployment) and policing strategies (hot-spot policing seems to be very effective) have a far, far larger effect. Most of the differences in murder rates between the US and Europe can be explained by urban inequality, the related racial inequality, and gang violence (if you remove black on black murders, the US would have a murder rate similar to that of Finland and Luxembourg). I wouldn't be surprised if the poor (or non-existent) treatment of mentally ill people in the US had an effect as well.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-3153497.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate
    Hope is the denial of reality

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    Try:

    Cars removed, chaos ensues, people can't get to work, economy shrinks in the short to medium term. Country in some respects fails to operate.

    Guns removed, nothing much happens at all. The homicide rate plummets.

    Clue: Most other western countries have a near-equal per-capita rate of cars as the US. Most other western countries have very few guns.

    Conclusion: One is a necessity in the modern world. The other most certainly is not.
    They also don't have the same gun culture. Loki is right - even if guns were made 100% illegal it would not be difficult to get one in the states. We made alcohol illegal at one point - that didn't work very well did it?

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    It would also cut down incidents that involved stolen guns thanks to improper storage.

    I know some states required it for concealed carry, but I don't know which if any require training to simply own a gun
    I think you are trying to make a logical leap that just isn't possible here. Going through a gun safety course does not mean you can't improperly store your firearms. Unless you believe we should require quarterly home inspections of gun owners by the local sheriff I see little evidence that a gun safety courses alone will significantly alter the existing behaviors of those that attend.

    If that's the most intrusive regulation that comes out of this tragedy I wouldn't be overly upset, I just think it's more of a feel good measure than one that will actually make a measurable impact on gun violence.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    It would also cut down incidents that involved stolen guns thanks to improper storage.

    I know some states required it for concealed carry, but I don't know which if any require training to simply own a gun
    Hawaii, Michigan, Iowa are the ones I verified before I got bored. Rhode Island leaves the course requirement to the local police chief's discretion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I think you are trying to make a logical leap that just isn't possible here. Going through a gun safety course does not mean you can't improperly store your firearms. Unless you believe we should require quarterly home inspections of gun owners by the local sheriff I see little evidence that a gun safety courses alone will significantly alter the existing behaviors of those that attend.

    If that's the most intrusive regulation that comes out of this tragedy I wouldn't be overly upset, I just think it's more of a feel good measure than one that will actually make a measurable impact on gun violence.
    Agreed with this. I don't really have a big problem with requiring some course before owning a gun, as long as it's reasonable. I just don't think it's going to do much.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    Ok. I'm going to try this from another approach.

    Remove all cars from the United States. What happens?

    Remove all guns from the United States. What happens?
    Remove all cars and fewer people will die. Remove all guns and fewer people will die.

    That's the linear logic being used here, and I think it simply doesn't make sense.

    The overwhelming majority of gun owners (and car owners) don't kill people. As Wraith pointed out, gun ownership is not always correlated to high murder rates. The vast majority of gun crimes in the US are perpetrated with illegal guns in areas with very strict gun laws.

    The problem clearly isn't guns but rather illegal guns in the hands of unregistered, untrained and criminal elements. The solution should be on targeting illegal weapons. Just like the solution to drunk driving is to ban driving while drunk and enforce it rigorously.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    ...
    The vast majority of gun crimes in the US are perpetrated with illegal guns in areas with very strict gun laws.
    Those guns are bought in states with lax laws, and moved into states with stricter laws, especially on the purchasing side. Most of Chicago's guns come from Indiana, Kentucky or Ohio. Most of DC's and MD's guns come from Virginia, and people go from NY to other states to get their guns.

    The problem clearly isn't guns but rather illegal guns in the hands of unregistered, untrained and criminal elements. The solution should be on targeting illegal weapons. Just like the solution to drunk driving is to ban driving while drunk and enforce it rigorously.
    Defining what's an illegal gun, or illegal ownership, is part of the problem. And if we want registered, trained, non-violent citizens buying and owning guns legally....then we'll need a federal registry or database of some sort. With mandatory (not voluntary) interstate sharing of information on certain felony convictions, domestic violence and stalkers with restraining orders, mental incapacitation, etc.

    The registration of firearms needs to be connected to background checks -- and those databases need to be modernized, streamlined, and accurate -- with the gun show sales loophole eliminated. That would cut down on straw purchases, and those "criminal elements" legally buying firearms to take them across state lines.

    It would also help law enforcement's domestic security efforts, which is just as important as our national security efforts.

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