Working Out / Getting Buff

[Kazuha Vinland]

Bringing the successful thread of DBX, onto here. While the target group might be scarcely older than the prior DBZ CCers (), exercise should regardless be on everyone's week plan. So share your latest activities or accomplishments, and spread knowledge based on your experience.

As for me, I am an active volleyball player who previously pursued great overall strength, while now am more focused on a mix of plyometrics (ability to exert maximum force in a short time, as in jumping high) and weight lifting. Figured I would contribute with some more general guidance. A program for those who wish to just gain strength.

The Best Way to Start Strength!

Full-Body Split:
- Requirements: A gym license

The theory behind full-body split is as follows: Unless you are a professional specialized athlete, you have predominant muscle groups that are large in size and strength, that make up the essence of your body build. By targeting exercises that work multiple regions of the body, it is possible through a split program (A-B) to cover your entire base with just two different programs.

Split A:
- Barbell Squat 8 reps x 3 sets [P] 10-12 reps x 4 sets [S]
- Barbell Bench 8 reps x 3 sets [P] 10-12 reps x 4 sets [S]
- Pull-up Consecutive reps until failure (if none, jump to upper position and hang as long as you can endure) x 3 sets
- Dumbbell Shoulder Press 8 reps x 3 sets [P] 10-12 reps x 4 sets [S]

Split B:
- Barbell Deadlift 8 reps x 3 sets [P] 10-12 reps x 4 sets [S]
- Incline Dumbbell Press 8 reps x 3 sets [P] 10-12 reps x 4 sets [S]
- Chin-up Consecutive reps until failure (if none, jump to upper position and hang as long as you can endure) x 3 sets
- Arnold Press [P] 8 reps x 3 sets [P] 10-12 reps x 4 sets [S]

The split is completed so that there is one program every other day, with one day reserved for cardio. E. g. (Monday A, Wednesday B, Friday A, Sunday Cardio, Monday B, Wednesday A, Friday B etc.). The [P] stands for power weeks, while [S] stands for speed weeks. The power weeks require heavy resistance and long breaks in-between sets (2-3 minutes), while speed weaks have lower resistance and shorter breaks in-between sets (1 minute). The purpose of this is to shock your body, and transform slow fibers to agile fibers and ensure lengthy improvement.

Tips:
- A spotter, someone to assist in case of failure to complete a repetition, is crucial for bench press, and beneficial for dumbbell press and barbell squats. Teaming up with a partner is also an easy way to keep track of motivation both before going to the gym and while exercising.
- Not every day at the gym is fun, yet consistency is important. Tell yourself to go regardless, and if you have a bad day where you lift less than last workout, be sure to complete anyway.
- The first two weeks (or 3 walkthroughs of the programs if you like) should be done with minimum weight to acquire proper form and technique. The danger with improper form and technique, is that you stress the wrong pair of muscles, not reaching the results you have come to expect, and secondly you buckle and can get into stances that are no-good and cause of injury over long term. Starting slow is essential, and you will soon find yourself at a level where your weights match your "macho standard" - only this time with proper technique, and the right terms to get properly strong.
- For the basic exercises, I largely recommend Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength". It can be downloaded as a PDF from you-know-where, or bought online, and is a comprehensive and detailed look into proper form and technique. Especially important for squat, deadlift and bench. The three most profitable strength exercises in existence.
- With an improved workout regime, your energy consumption will increase substantially, and your need for food accordingly so. Looking into which foods are healthy for development, is not a shabby idea. Also consider protein shakes after exercise. These work in the manner that the protein uptake is at its largest 20 minutes after a workout, and needed to build up muscle throughout the restitution period.
- Cardio more than one day a week is excessive if you plan to build muscles. It is there to give definition to your muscles and burn fat. I recommend 4x4 min intervalls, with high intensity throughout each interval. That has scientifically proved to tear down muscle mass less than long runs, whereas the fat burning continues even after ended exercise, giving the best of two trades. PS: I used to run 3 times a week before, but even when I substituted two of those workouts with strength, I remained at the same level thanks to the gym exercises in this program.
- Fitocracy.com is an excellent site for tracking your exercises after a workout, and hence calculate and plan improvements of your own.
- Stretching is awesome if you want to not get stiff after training strength!

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So that was part one of the thread. The educational bit. Now for the more traditional one, stating what I have done today:
- Plyometrics with cone jumps, depth jumps and side jumps.

[RandBlade]

Kaz is this really you as a human because aside from the DBZ remark this is smelling awfully like ad-spam.

[Kazuha Vinland]

Because of the link advertising Fitocracy? No, it's really me, and the reason for the extensive post is because it's a real hobby of mine that I enjoy sharing with others. I hardly think ad-spam edits their posts either! I was curious as to whether anyone else on TWF exercised, and for those interested, I wanted to give a look into what really works rather than them being trapped in the jungle of mumbo jumbo.

[LittleFuzzy]

Your post is just part of the mumbo jumbo jungle. "Here, look at this. THIS is what you actually need to do to get fit. Forget the other programs, just use the one I suggest, no matter who you are or what you're seeking to get out of your exercise routine if anything."

[Kazuha Vinland]

Let's do the math then!



Front

• Neck
• [Shoulders] [X2] X3 X4
• Traps
• Biceps X2
• Forearm X2
• [Chest] [X2] X3
• [Abs]
• [Quads] X2

Back

• Triceps X2 X3 X4
• [Lats] [X2] X3
• Middle back X2 X3
• [Lower back] X2
• Glutes X2
• Hamstrings X2
• Calves X2

Squat
Deadlift
Bench Press
Inclined Bench Press
Pull-ups
Chin-ups
Shoulder Press
Arnold Press

[Main Muscle]

Feel free to suggest a program that exercises all these muscles at such a rate in just two workouts. Also mind that if you isolate train (one muscle at a time), it will be less effective than training the muscle alongside a major one.

What your point should be, is that if you train specifically to perform in a sport, there are certain muscles you will prioritize and plyometrics become important. A professional body builder will also do isolated exercises to fine-adjust the symmetric of his body. Ask any gym enthusiast though about this being a great overall program for the first 2 years of training, and he'll confirm it for you. Unlike those mumbo jumbo articles explaining how to burn fat within a set period etc.

[Dreadnaught]

I honestly think it makes sense to do half of these things and spread them out across more workouts and do that routine on a regular basis. Though that is if you're looking for general fitness and tone and not muscle-building.

[Kazuha Vinland]

Not trying to be the guy who has to be right every time, but just curious about what makes you think that? A squat does not load any muscle that you use in either bench press, a pull up or shoulder press. It is a great starting exercise though, because it initiates the largest muscles in the body. Scientific experiments have concluded that if you train an unrelated exercise with large muscles, and add an exercise for smaller muscles, there will actually be a bonus effect for the latter. The second largest exercise in the A-split, is the chest in bench press. It is the only exercise that overlaps with something - shoulders with shoulder press. However, it is not a muscle that gets heavily loaded during plain bench press; it has more of a supportive role.

Regardless, next up you do pull ups to rest the shoulders before the main shoulder exercise. The pull ups are great because they balance your body. They train the biceps really well (just think about the entire swing motion that goes from bottom to top that is really ideal), but more importantly in my opinion, it puts great load on the lats and middle back. This way you will build a body that shapes out like a triangle upwards, rather than your chest becoming enormous as opposed to the rest of your upper body. Finally we have the shoulder press. Being a press, you know it works the main muscles in question to the limit (a pulling motion, the opposite, is a bit less effective). It works both the triceps and the shoulders, which is great because these are the muscles on your upper body that is most apparent to others. A look good exercise pretty much.

B-split. 48 hours later, your body should have had time to make an adequate recovery. Wait any longer, and the restitution will have been long gone by, and your muscles started to shrink again. Do these exercises every day, and there will be too little restitution, with the muscles not being able to repair & build themselves properly before you start to break them down during the workout. Regardless... during the B-split we find the single-handedly best exercise in the gym. The deadlift. I say it is the most important, thanks to what it trains. First of all it targets the largest muscles like the squat, being a great base for the rest of your workout. Furthermore it has the lower back as its main focus. Pretty much this is an exercise that can significantly reduce the risks of getting back injuries when older if done right (see Mark Rippetoe's "Starting Strength" guide to know what is exactly right - it's important!). A third important muscle group it targets is the traps. These are unlike most muscles, not very visible from the outside. They are a great help though as they stabilize your upper body and makes you perform stronger with every other muscle group there. I cannot state enough how great an exercise the deadlift actually is.

Moving on to inclined bench press, this is in essence a mix between shoulder press and ordinary bench press. It targets the muscles at an angle in between, so you can definitely feel that it smooths out whichever weakness you have with those two exercises relative to each other. Because you use dumb bells rather than a barbell, it also enhances balance as an aspect. You have to fight to get an even motion, and that is a good thing. Again we have chin ups, that are supposed to do mostly the same as the pull up in split-A. Balance upper body structure and build the biceps. The difference between it and a pull up, is that your palms face your body in this exercise. We do this purely because the deadlift is so taxing on the forearms, that doing pull-ups (the harder variant) would feel painful also loading the forearms a lot. Finally the arnold press kicks in again to get those good looks by targeting shoulders, triceps and chest. This one has a press-rotate motion, that adds some flexibility to your limbs, in the regard that you won't become rigid like an old man once your muscles grow a bit in size. Light stretching is recommended either way after a workout, to remain flexible as desired. Cardio I also recommend once a week to tighten up the muscles, increase lung capacity / oxygen uptake and decrease pulse. It is something you have to be very conscious about though, as running several times a week will make you lose a lot of muscle as well as fat. If the goal is to lose weight, however, running 2-3 times a week is obvious.

So there you have it, my breakdown of the exercises and why you should do them in that fashion. I am completely up for criticism, but I feel rather boldly about this program as I have learned it from reading hours and hours about the physiological parts, and it is based on what gym enthusiasts who have gotten really far did, and a lot of input from others. Always room for improvement though. I especially feel it lacking somewhat for abs and traps. Should probably add a few tips for that later, but want suggestions.

[Lebanese Dragon]

Your post is just part of the mumbo jumbo jungle. "Here, look at this. THIS is what you actually need to do to get fit. Forget the other programs, just use the one I suggest, no matter who you are or what you're seeking to get out of your exercise routine if anything."

You've made this point once before, and there is some merit to it. However, at the end of the day the human body is just a machine and there is method to the madness. Just like there are core principles governing the mechanics of how levers operate so it is the same of the human machine. Each person has a different starting point, but the basics are the same. Motivation is probably the biggest obstacle for most people.

[Kazuha Vinland]

Very true. There are more ways than one to exercise strength. Yet there is a common recognition that for base strength, you have three exercises that take priority: squat, deadlift and bench press. If you want symmetry, you add pull-ups and chin-ups to expand the lats. Then you have shoulder and Arnold press that target the most easily recognizable muscles for a man, the shoulders and his triceps. It is under the stereotype that a person with narrow shoulders, is weaker and less athletic. And triceps is the biggest muscles in your arms, so likewise for that. So the concept is in fact very, very simple - and then there is not much you can say to fault it either.

Did the A-split today and managed to recruit a friend to join the gym as well. Squatted 155 lbs, benched 130 lbs, did 7/4/1 pull-ups and shoulder pressed 30 lbs each dumb bell. My goal is to increase squat and bench by 5 pounds every week, pull-up by 1 unit until I reach 8/8/8 (then I'll start with weighted pull-ups) and 4,5 lbs for shoulder press every second week. Since my goal is to lift 1.5 times my own body weight in large exercises(176 lbs), it should take me at the very least 20 weeks with full dedication, plus the few added weeks to readjust for added body mass.

Example of body build for lifting 1.5 times own body weight:


When this happens, I'll consider myself strong. My friend who just started training today, did 90 lbs for both squat and bench. If he follows my progress, it will take him 35 weeks to reach the goal. That translates to roughly 9 months from being unfit to having a dream body.

Seems tough? Well, Marit Bjørgen, the elite cross country skier, weighs 140 lbs and believe this... squats 375 pounds. That's 2.65 times her own body weight.



I LIKE NUMBERS!

[Lebanese Dragon]

Glad you're excited about fitness, but I think your time scale is a bit too fast though. 20 weeks to bench 50 more pounds (doing large reps). Granted if you're newer to working out you lose weight and gain muscle much faster than those who have been doing it for a long time. The curve is really fast then begins to slow.

If you're looking for muscle gain, another key component to add to your regiment is proper protein in-take, and diet. Having a shake after work out etc, or before work out if it's a slow digestive shake. If you want to see the real gains that you want in muscle, it has to be accompanied by proper protien in-take, or your body won't have the material to turn all that hard work into muscle.

Here's an amazing documentary, that's very on our level:

[Kazuha Vinland]

Definitely. I'll use this as an experiment. I'll take the 5 pounds a week as a fun challenge in the start, and see how long it lasts until progress slows down. 5 pounds really do not look like a lot in free weights, but then again when benching, you do notice it when you apply this amount as extra. I have ordered protein, and will use it after exercise. That's when the uptake of protein is at its largest, and I usually don't have much of an appetite right after working out, so getting it in liquid form is great. I'll watch the documentary in a bit.

[earthJoker]

Feel free to suggest a program that exercises all these muscles at such a rate in just two workouts. Also mind that if you isolate train (one muscle at a time), it will be less effective than training the muscle alongside a major one.

I rather stay with my current approach. I change my program every few months. Always having about half free and half isolated routines. I also adept the programs over the year, as I need the legs a lot in winter. If you ever skied a more than 1000 m altitude difference in a single run you will understand what I mean, and I carved most of the day.

[Kazuha Vinland]

Care to post your current program? This thread wasn't really meant for me to sell my program, but for everyone to share theirs and learn from each other's experiences. If you post yours, we can look at muscle groups and relate it to how you feel it works, as you're obviously satisfied with it.

[RandBlade]

"Seems tough? Well, Marit Bjørgen, the elite cross country skier, weighs 140 lbs and believe this... squats 375 pounds. That's 2.65 times her own body weight."

First thing I thought when I saw that picture wasn't 'wow' but 'dope' ... And a quick Google shows she has been accused of doping and using some very odd medicines.

[Kazuha Vinland]

She uses Symbicort against astma. It was on the doping list in the past, but they removed it after the anti-doping bureau WADA proved it was not performance enhancing, but performance -leveling- between those who have astma and those who have not. It has got to do with oxygen uptake, not strength or muscle building. So what you see is a normality against the extremely hard exercising cross country skiers in world class.



^ Similar build, but Marit has obviously genetics that make her far more muscular, and has always had.



^ Doesn't mean Therese (the other girl) is any less ripped. The other guy is an elite handball player, and just goes to show the different body ideals of different sports. Skiers DO look like that.

[Lebanese Dragon]

You don't have to turn into one of those guys to be fit. Those people are just people are who are super fit, who work out 6 days of week, and their life, their profession is fitness. You perhaps may have other passions outside of fitness, will take up time, and prevent you from obtaining this elite level, which you may not even want. The added gains verse the added work is crazy to reach that level. You can reach 75% of that level with a fraction of the work, just that last 25% is an incredible amount of dedication. It's really unncessary unless that's your profession/passion.


This guy here really sets an interesting perspective on being healthy, and how and why people who've tried ot be healthy in the past seem to fail at doing so. he was recently one of the guests at google talks:

[Kazuha Vinland]

Interesting views. I am not one to strive to become an elite athlete. That requires 3 things I don't have: genetics, start from an early age, dedication. I am your typical gym person who goes consistently rather than every now and then, as I've figured it's worthless if not (12 months of training can dissolve after 8 weeks of none). Yet when I am at the gym, I naturally have a wish to become better, so I push myself there and then. Results will come consequently (I hope).

[Lebanese Dragon]

Interesting views. I am not one to strive to become an elite athlete. That requires 3 things I don't have: genetics, start from an early age, dedication. I am your typical gym person who goes consistently rather than every now and then, as I've figured it's worthless if not (12 months of training can dissolve after 8 weeks of none). Yet when I am at the gym, I naturally have a wish to become better, so I push myself there and then. Results will come consequently (I hope).

Good perspective on it, because to be an elite is another challenge all together. To become decent, above average, useful, now that's easily obtainable. At the very beginning any start is a good start, but eventually # of reps, weights, technique are a major role. honestly technique, I Agree with you should be very high on everyone's list. It's how you get your bang for your buck, and avoid injury.

Interesting views.

I really don't know about his books, but his basic idea of learning the core principals to get 80% of what you want with only 20% of the effort it takes to be perfect at, I like that a lot. It logically makes sense to me.

Did you watch the Kai Greene documentary?

[Kazuha Vinland]

Indeed. I think that to just be fit, all you have to do is jog twice a week. Training strength three times a week is to get ideal progress (you have time to restitution, not time to lose muscle mass again), two times a week is to uphold a high level of already achieved strength, once a week to upload a basic achieved strength.

[Kazuha Vinland]

Did the B-split today: Deadlift (155 lbs), inclined bench (90 lbs), chin ups (8, 4, 3) and arnold press (60 lbs).

Also started the plyometric x-plode program. Got slightly irritated with the gym's low ceiling that did not allow a full jump onto stands. Had to move the stands to a different room. Completed none-the-less with 5x5 full box jumps, 4x5 single leg box jumps, 4x5 sideways box jumps. I'll do this 3 times a week the coming 3, before getting to phase II of plyometrics. The goal is to increase my vertical by 4 inches.

[Lebanese Dragon]

I could definitely see the enthusiasm in your posts. How old are you again btw? Would 16 or 17 be a good guess.

[Kazuha Vinland]

Ha, I suppose no offence taken, but I'm 20. Did you conclude that from the confidence in my posts? It might seem overconfident and immature, I don't know.Truth is I really am enthusiastic about things when they initially grab my interest, and then I research and research until I'm convinced I'm right.



This makes me feel weak.

[Lebanese Dragon]

Ha, I suppose no offence taken, but I'm 20.

No, offense meant, you sound fairly intelligent, I was mostly basing the guess of the hyper level of confidence. In my opinion it's too hard to set such goals realistically. You have to see how your body reacts to the work out, some people will progress faster some slower, it's genetics there. The basic work outs between the two people is similar, but speed of progress varies. I'm glad you're working out and doing it properly, I'd definitely push for a complete diet over-haul if you get very serious, but it seems your off to a good start, and one key component of success is not over whelming yourself, and just changing 1 step at a time. Which is one thing I liked about that one 4-hour chef video. Why is her back all arched weird in the video? Still impressive though.

[Kazuha Vinland]

I largely agree. When holding 5 pounds in a hand, it doesn't seem like such a challenge when you think about the large muscles like your legs and chest, as it's really next to nothing. However, it's the tale of the water drop making a glass spill, as you're on your max already and then trying to add a little bit more.

I do try to eat varied and healthy, and I've just bought 4kg of Whey 80 protein and 500g of Kreatin Monohydrate. Now there is a lot of discussion around the benefits of these supplements. The most proved supplement is kreatin, which will help you to lift 10-20% once your levels have peaked after roughly 6 weeks. Protein shakes, as I like to say, is valuable for those of us who do not have the appetite or opportunity to eat a large meal right after a workout. Personally I live 20 minutes away from the gym, so in that period I would already have exceeded the pastime where your body takes up the most proteins to rebuild muscles after a workout. I also rarely have much of an hunger and am thirsty & hot afterwards, and then consuming a liquid with all the right nutrients is excellent. Protein shakes are on the other hand NOT necessary for breakfast, lunch, dinner or any other time of the day. Maybe as a supplement to a protein insufficient dinner, but that's rare with my diet. 30g protein each workout, which to my calculations will last me roughly 230 days per bag. Just a tea spoon (5g) kreatin mixed in, so it might last even longer despite the lower buy-in quantity.

What the girl did in the video is typical for power lifters when lifting really heavy weights. The criteria is that you have both your upper back and your butt contacting the surface. That way you get a stationary tension where all the power is put into your upper body (mostly chest and triceps in this exercise). She does a very exaggerated version of it, and normally such flexibility can't be kept when getting really bulky. The person setting a WR, has done so with a combination of such a flexible lift and a low height allowing him to have it. I have seen older girls do it in gyms, and I must admit it looks kinda nice.



PS: For a normal bench press, the technique is to place your legs closer to the bar than you would feel natural when lying flat, then drag yourself way under the bar, lock the foot position and drag yourself back again; creating an arch with your middle back. To be aligned, your eyes should be placed directly beneath the barbell, so that you can stare right up at it. Most barbells have carved in rings that tell you where to put your fingers. It varies between arm length which finger to use, but I use my ring finger or pinky preferably. Once you've found this position, you tuck in your arms and compress throughout the whole lift. The palms are supposed to go straight upwards, and to manage this you need to place bar as deep inside your palms as possible when lifting heavy. Exhale when pushing upwards and stop at a 90 degree arm angle. For people with huge chests, that might be when it touches your chest, for those who haven't come that far, you should stop a bit earlier. You can observe from the vid how the girl angles it at a perfect 90 degrees, as should be.

[Lebanese Dragon]

It's kind of abusing the spirit of the bench in my opinion. That arch makes it so you don't have to bring the bar down as low. Anyway, yes it does look nice, it's not hard to note that a gym is a great place to meet attractive woman (I hear a lot of fit ones hang out there).

[earthJoker]

Care to post your current program?

Sure, I start with the main leg muscles I need for skiing:
-leg extension on the machine
- leg press on the machine
- Barbell full squat twice
Then a row pull, in a crouch position, which trains the legs again, in a similar way as if I was skiing.

For the rest of my body:
- benches with short barbells.
-Cross cable for chest.
- Pull down for upper back (machine)
- Push up for shoulders (machine)
- Get the legs up while hanging for abs
- Hyperextensions for lower back
- And I do another machine for my neck.

[Kazuha Vinland]

Intriguing. I talked to a friend who will participate in the Norwegian Championship for skiing. Apparently there is a large difference between how the different athletes work out. For instance he told me, that the world's best skier, Petter Northug, hardly trained in the gym at all. For him it was core work and after that pure endurance training all the time. Whereas Marit Bjørgen, the female best skier, obviously has done it a lot.

I appreciate the initiative to isolate the muscles you believe relate to your sport. Did you have anyone to tell you that this was "right" stress and rep number wise, or did you just make the assumption based on the muscle soreness you get?

Also, question. What machine to you use to train your neck? I could really need to make my neck thicker as it's long and gracious like Keira Knightley's, but not very manly and out of proportion compared to the rest of my body. I've tried weights on the back of my hand, pushing my neck upwards at the edge of a bench, but that's it.

[earthJoker]

Intriguing. I talked to a friend who will participate in the Norwegian Championship for skiing. Apparently there is a large difference between how the different athletes work out. For instance he told me, that the world's best skier, Petter Northug, hardly trained in the gym at all. For him it was core work and after that pure endurance training all the time. Whereas Marit Bjørgen, the female best skier, obviously has done it a lot.

When people here speak about "skiing" they mean alpine skiing, while cross-skiing is called "Langlauf", so you have to excuse me for the confusion.
Alpine skiing is much more stress for your legs. Especially if you go into carving. You really need to get that force from your legs to bend the ski. And you should never do it with straight legs. Just watch the video about the technique.

I appreciate the initiative to isolate the muscles you believe relate to your sport. Did you have anyone to tell you that this was "right" stress and rep number wise, or did you just make the assumption based on the muscle soreness you get?

I always make my new programs with a trainer. As you see from my list, there is one very isolated routine, one less on the machine, and than two free routines. I do believe that is important for my goals, as I need the force (mostly from the quadriceps) and I need the small muscles for guidance.

Also, question. What machine to you use to train your neck? I could really need to make my neck thicker as it's long and gracious like Keira Knightley's, but not very manly and out of proportion compared to the rest of my body. I've tried weights on the back of my hand, pushing my neck upwards at the edge of a bench, but that's it.

Currently I do something like a shrugs, but on a machine, so it's guided. It does train the traps, which also extend to the neck:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sourc...64127841955584

I need to train my neck mostly because of my work. Too much sitting in front of a computer.

[Kazuha Vinland]

Oh yeah, professional alpine skiiers have an amazing physique. It's so apparent when there is national championships here, and you can tell that most of the athletes are not anywhere near strong enough to complete with full force. Watching guys like Aksel Lund Svindal and Ted Ligity race is amazing. Then your program makes a whole lot more sense to me.

[Kazuha Vinland]

Nice weather outside forces me to do some running. I have way too much cardio exercise at the moment. 40 minutes in total on the bike each time I go to the gym (3x a week), 7 minutes on the treadmill as a warm-up, and the sunday 4x4 running intervalls. Ideally I would cut out all the bike rides, but have yet to get my car license.