Electromagnetic hypersensitivty

[Aimless]

Some background:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...tivity#Studies

EM-hypersensitivity is becoming an increasingly popular topic in mainstream Swedish media. One nationwide survey found that almost 3% of respondents believed themselves to suffer from EM-hypersensitivty. The survey had some issues, but its findings were a clear indicator that an astonishingly large number of Swedish adults believe they are significantly impaired or harmed by exposure to even low doses of non-ionizing radiation and EM-fields.

This is important for a number of reasons, but one issue that's esp. troubling and urgent is that these people--perhaps rightly--are increasingly demanding that measures be taken to ensure their ability to safely participate in some spheres of our modern and highly electrified society. Eg the construction of EM-free schools, preschools, hospital rooms, etc.

Several of Sweden's smaller parties have jumped on the opportunity to take advantage of this growing movement, trying to implement these costly and impractical measures on both local and national levels.

Now, I realise some of you have issues with authoritarianism in science and paternalism in medicine--and hubris in both--but the truth is that there is practically no good evidence in support of the existence of true EM hypersensitivity in humans--at least, not of the sort these people believe they suffer from. Moreover, there is a fairly solid body of evidence against its existence. That they are suffering and are even functionally disabled is beyond doubt, and perhaps there are neurophysiological differences between sufferers and non-sufferers--but the etiology of their symptoms does not seem to be electricity. Which may lead us to conclude that investment in the construction of EM-free zones in every sphere of activity may not be the best way to deal with this issue, even if you're hoping for some sort fo placebo effect.

This may rub some of you the wrong way, but there are a host of troublesome symptoms and syndromes that are functional in nature, and demonstrably so. Some people use the term "psychogenic", others refer to "somatisation" or "psychosomatic" symptoms; in some cases there may be an element of "dissociation", but that's another kind of beast which requires a different approach to treatment. I like the descriptive term "functional" because it says nothing explicit about the etiology but acknowledges the real impairment and implies something reasonable about the mechanism behind that impairment. People with difficult functional disorders need a different approach to treatment than do people with eg. Parkinson's, but they do need help. Truth be told, they very often do need treatments in the psychiatric domain, but also treatment in the form of training in specific tasks etc. It's often doable. I think that, if I had to choose, I'd prefer to have some functional form of Parkinsonism than to have Parkinson's--the prognosis can be better.

Recently, a Swedish-Iranian doctor asked the healthcare system an important question: is the rise of eg. EM-hypersensitivity in Sweden an expression of the deep stigma that still clings to psychological/psychiatric/functional problems? Does it reflect our inadequate ability to deal with these problems in an effective but also humane and compassionate way? We know that somatic problems have greater cred than do psychiatric ones, and we consequently invest more heavily in the somatic problems--both wrt diagnosis and treatment as well as wrt the safety net. We also have a tendency to give up on psychiatric problems, assuming--sometimes correctly, sometimes not--that the prognosis is poor and that we'd be wasting our money. Perhaps, if that were to change, we could help more of these people--adults who could/should be in their prime--lead happy productive lives without encouraging anti-scientism, populism, etc?

Whatcha reckon? Reasonable and sensible? Or just another fibromyalgia scandal in the making?

[Khendraja'aro]

Do the same people also sign some papers that they won't complain if their 911 call from their mobile doesn't go through because they're living in such a precious "EM free" zone?

Do they also take care to minimize their exposure to the sun? And generally don't use any kind of electric device?

I mean, we have some of those guys over here as well. They recently complained because an energy provider changed a proposed high-voltage AC cable route to DC. Why? Because the cable would be buried in the earth instead of hanging in the air, thus resulting in a cable "closer" to them and disturbing them with it's EM field.

Too bad that DC doesn't generate an EM field at all.

It's a mixture of idiocy, ignorance and too much time at their hands (most of those complaining are pensioners).

[Flixy]

I do remember a lovely item on the news about research into this (showing no effect) and interviewing a woman who complained the new cell phone tower on top of her building caused her massive headaches and burning pains - except it had not been switched on yet.

[GGT]

EM hypersensitivity is a pretty broad term, innit? I consider myself part of that broad group because of things like:

1. Hearing a high-pitched "sound" when idling at traffic signals (less of a problem as my hearing ages)
2. Getting static shocks when touching certain electronics (especially cars)
3. Blowing lightbulbs when touching the lamp or switch
4. Messing up electronic sensor doors by just walking through
5. Fritzing other people's cell phones or computers with a touch


....and other strange stuff like that. It's not "scientific", but it's real for me. In my early career, I worked using a phone head-set and computer, and had constant problems (either with the equipment itself or neurological symptoms). I chalked it up to (my) hypersensitivity of senses in general--smell, taste, sight, hearing, touch.

I think it's probably a genetic syndrome of some sort. My sister can smell celery on breath or in food like it's a phenome or something, and one of my kids feels anything touching his skin as an assault (sheets, t-shirts, labels, fabric 'pills', etc.) None of us can handle big box stores with bright humming lights and all those smells. I wouldn't call it a disability, but it sure makes modern life difficult.

[Khendraja'aro]

That's not "sensitivity", let alone "hypersensitivity". Humans have NO receptors for EM radiation (save for the visible / IR part of the spectrum, mind).

1. That's not due to EM, that's due to the vibrations of inductors which you can hear. No magic, anyone with ears can, in principle, hear that.
2. That's not EM either. It's static electricity.
3. Again, not EM. That's due to the high current when you switch on any kind of electric device. Light bulbs almost always burn out when you switch them on. It's the same reason why I, when I'm using certain parts for my experiments, use a variable resistor to restrict the initial current to "non-lethal" (for the device, that is) strengths because the currents upon power-on could burn them out (it's usually the hot cathode of a Braun tube / an electron gun I'm worried about).
4. Again, not EM.
5. That's called static electricity and not EM, again.

Yeah, you're right. It's not scientific, not at all.

[GGT]

Yeah, but I didn't ignore minx's last paragraph.

IMO, it's something "reasonable and sensible" for medical/healthcare pros to study and understand, without making foregone conclusions based on societal norms.

[Aimless]

Yeah, but I didn't ignore minx's last paragraph.

IMO, it's something "reasonable and sensible" for medical/healthcare pros to study and understand, without making foregone conclusions based on societal norms.

I'm guessing you're not saying that to agree with my final paragraph because that's not at all what I said

[GGT]

I'm guessing you're not saying that to agree with my final paragraph because that's not at all what I said

Mostly, I was replying to the Swedish-Iranian doctor mentioned in your last paragraph.

[Khendraja'aro]

Yeah, but I didn't ignore minx's last paragraph.

IMO, it's something "reasonable and sensible" for medical/healthcare pros to study and understand, without making foregone conclusions based on societal norms.

It has been studied ad nauseam. There's neither a medicial nor a physical (as in Physics) basis for "EM sensitivity".

It's non-ionizing radiation. We can't even feel ionizing radiation!

[GGT]

Khen, it's not the study of EM hypersensitivity itself, but how individual/personal complaints, as related to doctors, need further study.

There's the difference.



Edit for clarity: patient symptoms and verbal complaints should never be ignored or belittled. That's 18th century medicine, when "melancholia" or "hysteria" was attributed to women as the weaker sex. 20th century 'medicine' had guys like Kellogg making enemas and colonics (and breakfast cereal) to cure all sorts of ailments. We didn't even give credence to "chronic fatigue" as a legitimate syndrome until it could be proven as Epstein Barr virus under the microscope. And we used to pooh-pooh indoor allergies, until Sick Building Syndrome was proven in lab tests.

My main point is that symptomology matters, regardless of the "causal conclusions" lay people can (erroneously) make.

[Khendraja'aro]

That doesn't really need to be studied. It's the placebo/nocebo effect.

And we're done.

[Dreadnaught]

Recently, a Swedish-Iranian doctor asked the healthcare system an important question: is the rise of eg. EM-hypersensitivity in Sweden an expression of the deep stigma that still clings to psychological/psychiatric/functional problems? Does it reflect our inadequate ability to deal with these problems in an effective but also humane and compassionate way? We know that somatic problems have greater cred than do psychiatric ones, and we consequently invest more heavily in the somatic problems--both wrt diagnosis and treatment as well as wrt the safety net. We also have a tendency to give up on psychiatric problems, assuming--sometimes correctly, sometimes not--that the prognosis is poor and that we'd be wasting our money. Perhaps, if that were to change, we could help more of these people--adults who could/should be in their prime--lead happy productive lives without encouraging anti-scientism, populism, etc?

Whatcha reckon? Reasonable and sensible? Or just another fibromyalgia scandal in the making?

I'm not sure I understand the Swedish-Iranian doctor's question. Is there some kind of massive backlash against the stunningly high proportion of people in Sweden apparently/claiming to suffer from this?

I had a good family friend who had this. It was just a stepping-stone to her transition from a pretty normal American with weird ideas about radio waves...into a hard-core orthodox Jew who walked away from her spouse and kids (the husband wasn't Jewish and the kids weren't Jewish "enough") and now lives in a West Bank settlement. She doesn't rave about EM-hypersensitivity anymore, but she sure raves about other stuff.

That is, when we see or hear from her. Which is rare. We mainly hear about her when she feels like seeing her kids...who duly travel to visit her in the West Bank until she starts resenting them again for being "impure".

[Aimless]

That doesn't really need to be studied. It's the placebo/nocebo effect.

And we're done.

The placebo/nocebo effect is one of the most fascinating and important things in the world to study that wasn't, however, what was suggested. If I'm reading GGT correctly she's saying we should put more effort into studying and understanding how best to deal with these problems even if they're functional in nature and may be associated with various psychiatric issues. Do you feel these people--some of whom experience considerable suffering due to disability--should be abandoned?

I'm not sure I understand the Swedish-Iranian doctor's question. Is there some kind of massive backlash against the stunningly high proportion of people in Sweden apparently/claiming to suffer from this?

Both yes and no, but his question is more about whether or not we'd see less of this sort of thing if people were to feel safer in acknowledging and getting help for non-somatic or functional problems.

[Khendraja'aro]

The placebo/nocebo effect is one of the most fascinating and important things in the world to study that wasn't, however, what was suggested. If I'm reading GGT correctly she's saying we should put more effort into studying and understanding how best to deal with these problems even if they're functional in nature and may be associated with various psychiatric issues. Do you feel these people--some of whom experience considerable suffering due to disability--should be abandoned?

There are countless amounts of people who are suffering from some kind of delusion of this type, not limited to a supposed "EM sensitivity". It would be a very bad idea to limit studies to one singular notion.

Not to mention that simply removing ignorance would account for 90% of the cases - if you don't believe in it, you don't suffer from it.

Then again, religion is pretty persistant, too.

[Aimless]

There are countless amounts of people who are suffering from some kind of delusion of this type, not limited to a supposed "EM sensitivity". It would be a very bad idea to limit studies to one singular notion.

No-one's suggesting we should study this phenomenon to the exclusion of all other probably functional symptoms! We can study different things in parallel. In medicine, as in most other fields, knowledge and understanding of one thing can often offer insights into other things, ie. they can be transferrable.

Not to mention that simply removing ignorance would account for 90% of the cases - if you don't believe in it, you don't suffer from it.

That's probably not entirely true! Taking EM "hypersensitivity" as an example, the association with EM waves usually represents a patient's explanation--after the fact--of his symptoms. In the case of many other functional disorders, patients may not even have a handy explanation, though they desperately want one. All they know is that they're suffering and are impaired.

Even if you remove an explanation, the thing that needs explaining remains. Much as it is with religion, which is perhaps one reason why religious belief is so persistent.

[Khendraja'aro]

No-one's suggesting we should study this phenomenon to the exclusion of all other probably functional symptoms! We can study different things in parallel. In medicine, as in most other fields, knowledge and understanding of one thing can often offer insights into other things, ie. they can be transferrable.

This phenomenon is called "Nocebo effect". We're already researching that. No great mysteries there.

That's probably not entirely true! Taking EM "hypersensitivity" as an example, the association with EM waves usually represents a patient's explanation--after the fact--of his symptoms. In the case of many other functional disorders, patients may not even have a handy explanation, though they desperately want one. All they know is that they're suffering and are impaired.

Even if you remove an explanation, the thing that needs explaining remains. Much as it is with religion, which is perhaps one reason why religious belief is so persistent.

This is called an "un-/misdiagnosed illness". No mysteries there, either.

This is very much like Apple's patents which are nothing really new, only granted because of "... on a smartphone".
Unlocking something? Old. Unlocking something on a smartphone? Radically new[/sarcasm]

Why exactly something like this suddenly becomes oh-so-special just because it has something to do with EM/Infrasonic/Ultrasonic/The Great Spaghetti Monster is a mystery to me.

[wiggin]

Honestly, Minx, it sounds like you're just saying that we should provide better mental health treatment (or, if there is indeed some unknown etiology that isn't in their heads, more funds for scientific research on the issue). I agree. The idea of catering to the delusions of these people by making EM-free schools et al, though, is absurd and should be ignored by the Swedish government.

[GGT]

If I'm reading GGT correctly she's saying we should put more effort into studying and understanding how best to deal with these problems even if they're functional in nature and may be associated with various psychiatric issues.

Both yes and no, but his question is more about whether or not we'd see less of this sort of thing if people were to feel safer in acknowledging and getting help for non-somatic or functional problems.

Yes, but wiggin said it better:

Honestly, Minx, it sounds like you're just saying that we should provide better mental health treatment (or, if there is indeed some unknown etiology that isn't in their heads, more funds for scientific research on the issue). I agree. The idea of catering to the delusions of these people by making EM-free schools et al, though, is absurd and should be ignored by the Swedish government.

Khen's reply is an example of pre-conclusions (judgements) and dismissing whole groups of people with undiagnosed problems. I'd even wager some of their "delusions" are reactions to cope with symptoms that are difficult to diagnose, and a medical system that hasn't helped them much (especially if they're automatically dumped into the maze of psych care, with its social stigma).

[Khendraja'aro]

I'm not "dismissing" them, I'm saying that "EM sensitivity" ain't a thing. It's also not a "pre-conclusion", it's a conclusion, my dear. The ship has sailed, the fat lady has sung and the chickens have hatched.

I'm also wondering how you think throwing a false diagnosis at a problem would help in any way?

[GGT]

I'm not "dismissing" them, I'm saying that "EM sensitivity" ain't a thing. It's also not a "pre-conclusion", it's a conclusion, my dear. The ship has sailed, the fat lady has sung and the chickens have hatched.

I'm also wondering how you think throwing a false diagnosis at a problem would help in any way?

For starters, I didn't confuse the OP title with the broader discussion about diagnoses. My personal anecdotes weren't meant to "legitimize" EM hypersensitivity, but to show (from first hand experience) how difficult it can be to find medical treatment for particular symptoms and/or syndromes that are too easily thrown into the catch-all vagaries of "mental or psychiatric disorders".

A better example might be PTSD, which has been around for ages, but called by other names like "combat fatigue" or "shell shock". Over time, and with scientific study, the symptoms of PTSD weren't relegated to soldiers during war or direct combat, but could be attributed to any person experiencing an event as traumatic, either as a direct victim or indirect witness.