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Thread: What's a few billion dollars between friends?

  1. #1

    Default What's a few billion dollars between friends?

    In the winter of 2010, after a decade of defending the government against bias claims by Hispanic and female farmers, Justice Department lawyers seemed to have victory within their grasp.

    Ever since the Clinton administration agreed in 1999 to make $50,000 payments to thousands of black farmers, the Hispanics and women had been clamoring in courtrooms and in Congress for the same deal. They argued, as the African-Americans had, that biased federal loan officers had systematically thwarted their attempts to borrow money to farm.

    But a succession of courts — and finally the Supreme Court — had rebuffed their pleas. Instead of an army of potential claimants, the government faced just 91 plaintiffs. Those cases, the government lawyers figured, could be dispatched at limited cost.

    They were wrong.

    On the heels of the Supreme Court’s ruling, interviews and records show, the Obama administration’s political appointees at the Justice and Agriculture Departments engineered a stunning turnabout: they committed $1.33 billion to compensate not just the 91 plaintiffs but thousands of Hispanic and female farmers who had never claimed bias in court.

    The deal, several current and former government officials said, was fashioned in White House meetings despite the vehement objections — until now undisclosed — of career lawyers and agency officials who had argued that there was no credible evidence of widespread discrimination. What is more, some protested, the template for the deal — the $50,000 payouts to black farmers — had proved a magnet for fraud.

    “I think a lot of people were disappointed,” said J. Michael Kelly, who retired last year as the Agriculture Department’s associate general counsel. “You can’t spend a lot of years trying to defend those cases honestly, then have the tables turned on you and not question the wisdom of settling them in a broad sweep.”

    The compensation effort sprang from a desire to redress what the government and a federal judge agreed was a painful legacy of bias against African-Americans by the Agriculture Department. But an examination by The New York Times shows that it became a runaway train, driven by racial politics, pressure from influential members of Congress and law firms that stand to gain more than $130 million in fees. In the past five years, it has grown to encompass a second group of African-Americans as well as Hispanic, female and Native American farmers. In all, more than 90,000 people have filed claims. The total cost could top $4.4 billion.

    From the start, the claims process prompted allegations of widespread fraud and criticism that its very design encouraged people to lie: because relatively few records remained to verify accusations, claimants were not required to present documentary evidence that they had been unfairly treated or had even tried to farm. Agriculture Department reviewers found reams of suspicious claims, from nursery-school-age children and pockets of urban dwellers, sometimes in the same handwriting with nearly identical accounts of discrimination.

    Yet those concerns were played down as the compensation effort grew. Though the government has started requiring more evidence to support some claims, even now people who say they were unfairly denied loans can collect up to $50,000 with little documentation.

    As a senator, Barack Obama supported expanding compensation for black farmers, and then as president he pressed for $1.15 billion to pay those new claims. Other groups quickly escalated their demands for similar treatment. In a letter to the White House in September 2009, Senator Robert Menendez of New Jersey, a leading Hispanic Democrat, threatened to mount a campaign “outside the Beltway” if Hispanic farmers were not compensated...
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/26/us...-millions.html

    Nothing like spending $4.4 billion against the advice of everyone involved, and despite massive fraud, as a way to throw pork at minority "farmers".
    Hope is the denial of reality

  2. #2
    Doesn't surprise me. Its awfully easy to spend other people's money.

  3. #3
    If that's the most significant expense of this type we see out of the Obama administration, I'd consider us to have dodged a bullet.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  4. #4
    And besides this is the liberals plan to fix the budget -

    http://www.despair.com/inflation.html

    (Real Paul Krugman's column and see how much liberals love inflation).

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    If that's the most significant expense of this type we see out of the Obama administration, I'd consider us to have dodged a bullet.
    Its not. Its just one among many.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    If that's the most significant expense of this type we see out of the Obama administration, I'd consider us to have dodged a bullet.
    You don't see the problem with giving away billions of dollars based almost entirely on race?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  7. #7
    The 'problem' was setting a precedent, that didn't require documentation, to prove the claim of bias.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    You don't see the problem with giving away billions of dollars based almost entirely on race?
    Sure. I also see problems in the overuse of plastic bags. So? What's that got to do with the price of potatoes in Des Moines? I said things could have been significantly worse, without any serious political consequences even. If this is the worst expense of this sort we see from Obama's two terms then we're getting off easy.

    Oh and Lewk? It can't be just one among too many or GOP politicians would be making more political hay out of it. I can readily accept that it's not the only such example during Obama's term but if it were as extensive and aggregately expensive as you want to imply then it would have generated more attention.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Sure. I also see problems in the overuse of plastic bags. So? What's that got to do with the price of potatoes in Des Moines? I said things could have been significantly worse, without any serious political consequences even. If this is the worst expense of this sort we see from Obama's two terms then we're getting off easy.

    Oh and Lewk? It can't be just one among too many or GOP politicians would be making more political hay out of it. I can readily accept that it's not the only such example during Obama's term but if it were as extensive and aggregately expensive as you want to imply then it would have generated more attention.
    Obama runs up trillion dollar deficits every year. This is an example of wasteful and idiotic spending but hardly the largest or more asinine policy.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Sure. I also see problems in the overuse of plastic bags. So? What's that got to do with the price of potatoes in Des Moines? I said things could have been significantly worse, without any serious political consequences even. If this is the worst expense of this sort we see from Obama's two terms then we're getting off easy.

    Oh and Lewk? It can't be just one among too many or GOP politicians would be making more political hay out of it. I can readily accept that it's not the only such example during Obama's term but if it were as extensive and aggregately expensive as you want to imply then it would have generated more attention.
    If each farmer is getting $50k and the program is projected to cost $4.4 billion, we're talking about giving free money to 100,000 people, with the only criterion being race. 100,000 people seems like pretty extensive to me. And we both know this is far from the only example. What happened to the billions that were allocated to educational programs with minimal oversight?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  11. #11
    Is it the perceived fiscal irresponsibility that bugs you? I got the impression the problem was it being a discrimination-reparations program. If it's the fiscal cost well, it's not even a drop in the bucket compared to the health care reforms.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  12. #12
    The lawyers found no substantial evidence of discrimination, certainly not enough to give $50k to this many people...
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The lawyers found no substantial evidence of discrimination, certainly not enough to give $50k to this many people...
    Yes, I read the article too. Before I read your comment or Lewks even, much less made one of my own. How many times do I have to repeat that we could/should have expected worse from this administration? What are you expecting to get from me, an expression of disbelief and aghast outrage like. . . some other posters?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Is it the perceived fiscal irresponsibility that bugs you? I got the impression the problem was it being a discrimination-reparations program. If it's the fiscal cost well, it's not even a drop in the bucket compared to the health care reforms.
    It can't be both? And are you OK with reparations based programs?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    It can't be both? And are you OK with reparations based programs?
    It's pork. Nothing more and nothing less. I'm not a fan of pork but beyond the desire to see the federal budget trimmed I don't really care.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  16. #16
    Pork based entirely on race. It's also a heck of a lot of pork for one program.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Pork based entirely on race.
    No it's not. It's also apparently based on gender.

    It's also a heck of a lot of pork for one program.
    Look, Obama came into office wanting to resurrect the spirit of JFK's "New Frontier" domestic plan. Fight recession, poverty, and the consequences of discrimination. Feel free to object to that plan and this expression of it, as I recall you didn't vote for Obama in the first place. I did but only because I couldn't stand the thought that Palin might pull a Teddy Roosevelt. But I'm not going to stop insisting that this is small potatoes compared to what we might have seen.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  18. #18
    That's like saying that if Palin became president and invaded China but not Russia, it's nothing to be concerned about.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #19
    Make all the bad analogies you want Loki, it's not going to turn this into a big deal. My ability to get invested is finite and the Ag Dept going overbudget just doesn't rank. It's not causing injuries, it's not abusing any rights or governmental powers, it's not having any sort of impact I should be concerned about. It's only relevance is that it's part of a pile of pork, needless spending that I'd like to cut down on in aggregate but which won't even dent our major budget problems even if they all disappeared. And you're not even upset about it as part of the pork total because even when I bring it up and give you plenty of room you just keep things on this one program that's set you off.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  20. #20
    I'm most concerned at the likelihood of Dept of Ag employees (or the trial lawyers who were effectively co-conspirators) basically encouraging people to sign up. Like government-funded unemployment training that spends the first few sessions teaching people how to apply for welfare, it hints at the some real rot in the bureaucracy.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I'm most concerned at the likelihood of Dept of Ag employees (or the trial lawyers who were effectively co-conspirators) basically encouraging people to sign up. Like government-funded unemployment training that spends the first few sessions teaching people how to apply for welfare, it hints at the some real rot in the bureaucracy.
    Government sponsoring training on how to apply for welfare is an indictment of rot in the private sector. The alternative is more government jobs to make up for what the private sector is not providing...jobs.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  22. #22
    Dread, before I really reply to your post, I have a question for you. What do you think the purpose of a university financial aid department is? What goal should they set for themselves vis a vis admitted students?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Government sponsoring training on how to apply for welfare is an indictment of rot in the private sector. The alternative is more government jobs to make up for what the private sector is not providing...jobs.
    It actually suggests that the government can't even put-together a welfare system that doesn't require specialized training to take advantage of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Dread, before I really reply to your post, I have a question for you. What do you think the purpose of a university financial aid department is? What goal should they set for themselves vis a vis admitted students?
    I don't think a university financial aid office is really comparable to a job training program, but please explanify the comparisonable.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Government sponsoring training on how to apply for welfare is an indictment of rot in the private sector. The alternative is more government jobs to make up for what the private sector is not providing...jobs.
    Ah yes. Stifle the economy with hundreds of thousands of needless new regulation and laws and then sit back and declare the private sector has failed. Next step is to demand MORE intrusion by the government in the workforce.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I don't think a university financial aid office is really comparable to a job training program, but please explanify the comparisonable.
    It's not, but depending on what your answer was it might have shed light on the philosophy behind the two statements you made.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    It actually suggests that the government can't even put-together a welfare system that doesn't require specialized training to take advantage of it.

    I don't think a university financial aid office is really comparable to a job training program, but please explanify the comparisonable.
    It's been a while since you applied for student grants/loans/financial aid, huh. It's a complicated maze that requires advice from folks with specialized training in order to take full advantage.

    The same needs apply for any 'bureaucracy' dealing with money and debt, including Real Estate agents, mortgage brokers, and attorneys. I don't recall you complaining about that.

  27. #27
    Federal investigators secretly seized two months of phone records for reporters and editors of The Associated Press in what the news organization said Monday was a “serious interference with A.P.’s constitutional rights to gather and report the news...”

    ...Under President Obama, six current and former government officials have been indicted in leak-related cases so far, twice the number brought under all previous administrations combined...
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/14/us...-by-us.html?hp

    Speaking of hope and change.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  28. #28
    Take a look at Bloomberg's financial market web sites, which requires ~ $20,000 minimum "membership fee", even for AP financial writers....and how Bloomberg has been "monitoring", "gathering", and "reporting" that data.

  29. #29
    Well if Bloomberg does it, why should be concerned about the president doing the same.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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