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Thread: Supreme Court Rules DNA = Fingerprints

  1. #1

    Default Supreme Court Rules DNA = Fingerprints

    Our Supreme Court today ruled that, just as you can take fingerprints from someone who has been arrested, you can also swab their DNA. Naturally this will encourage further growth of DNA databases, as police forces will be encouraged to collect DNA for every arrest to build a caselog of people's interactions with the law.

    Interestingly, the case had a few left-wingers join the vote, while one of the famous conservatives (Scalias) joined the more traditional left-wingers in voting against this decision.

    I'm curious to know what people think about this. Is DNA really much different than a fingerprint? Is allowing cops to get people's DNA upon arrest a back-door to allow cops to go on fishing expeditions to snag them with every charge in their past?

    Updated June 3, 2013, 1:29 p.m. ET

    Supreme Court: Police Can Take DNA Samples in Arrests
    By JESS BRAVIN

    WASHINGTON—A divided Supreme Court held Monday that police can take DNA samples from people under arrest in the hope of tying them to unrelated crimes, in a ruling that touched both on fast-changing technology and age-old issues of citizens' rights against state searches.

    Authorities previously have been able to take such samples from convicted felons, whom courts consider to possess minimal privacy rights. At issue Monday was whether people who merely have been arrested—and may ultimately be released or acquitted of the charges that led to their arrest—also must submit to a cheek swab that would be matched against a nationwide DNA database of evidence from unsolved crimes.

    That practice, currently followed by 28 states and the federal government, allowed police in Wicomico County, Md., to link Alonzo King, arrested in 2009 for assault with a shotgun, with an unsolved 2003 rape. He later was convicted of the rape and sentenced to life in prison.

    The Maryland Court of Appeals, the state's highest court, voided the rape conviction. It held that the state law providing for taking arrestee DNA samples violated the Fourth Amendment, which generally requires police to demonstrate probable cause that an individual has committed a crime before they can search him or her.

    While police had probable cause to arrest Mr. King on the assault charge, they had no reason to suspect him of the unrelated rape, and thus the Maryland court found the DNA search unconstitutional.

    Monday's 5-4 Supreme Court opinion, by Justice Anthony Kennedy, sided with prosecutors, who have justified DNA sampling as a method to confirm an arrestee's identity as well as an invaluable tool in solving cold cases.

    The ruling comes as the cost of DNA sequencing has fallen and some advocates fear dissemination of DNA information could intrude on privacy or lead to discrimination. In 2008, Congress barred health insurers from using genetic data to raise rates on those found to be susceptible to certain diseases.

    Justice Kennedy likened DNA sampling, which is done by swabbing the inside of an arrestee's cheek, to fingerprinting, a long-accepted form of physical identification.

    Even though it currently can take months before a DNA match is made, Justice Kennedy wrote that authorities can still benefit from such identification when setting bail or imposing conditions of pretrial release long after the arrestee has entered the criminal-justice process.

    "A person who is arrested for one offense but knows that he has yet to answer for some past crime may be more inclined to flee the instant charge," he wrote.

    Dissenting Justice Antonin Scalia signaled his frustration by reading his dissent aloud. He likened the DNA law to the "despised" British practice of issuing general warrants in colonial days, authorizing royal officers to conduct blanket searches of the public.

    "I doubt that the proud men who wrote the charter of our liberties would have been so eager to open their mouths for royal inspection," he said.

    While Justice Kennedy agreed that DNA sampling constituted a search of an arrestee's body, he said he considered it a minor intrusion. "A swab of this nature does not increase the indignity already attendant to normal incidents of arrest," he wrote.

    Justice Kennedy noted several privacy safeguards in the Maryland law, which applies only to those arrested on suspicion of violent crimes or burglary. The samples may not be processed without suspects' consent until they are arraigned, must be destroyed if charges are dismissed or the suspect is acquitted, pardoned or has a conviction reversed on appeal, and can only be used for "identification" purposes.

    Justice Kennedy stressed those protections in upholding the Maryland statute. But "if in the future police analyze samples to determine, for instance, an arrestee's predisposition for a particular disease," additional court review could be necessary, he wrote.

    Not all DNA collection laws include as many safeguards as Maryland's law, and the ruling left open the possibility of challenges to statutes giving authorities wider leeway in the use of genetic samples.

    Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Clarence Thomas, Stephen Breyer and Samuel Alito joined the majority. Justice Breyer, although generally a liberal vote, has taken a more flexible position on the Constitution's protections for criminal defendants than others on the court's left wing, and his position, like that of seven other justices, seemed evident at oral argument.

    The swing vote belonged to Justice Thomas who, as is his custom, said nothing at argument and thus gave no clue to his leanings. In several past criminal procedure cases, he had aligned with Justice Scalia in staking out a firm view of defendants' rights, reflecting what the two conservatives said was the position of the Constitution's framers.

    More recently, however, Justice Thomas has been siding with greater police powers, casting Justice Scalia into a minority with liberal Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan.

    Justice Scalia contended that because authorities already possessed the power to take DNA samples from those ultimately convicted of crimes, only people who are wrongly arrested or later acquitted will have their privacy violated. He suggested the court had opened the door to wider use of mandatory DNA sampling by government, much as fingerprinting has spread far beyond the precinct house.

    "Make no mistake about it: As an entirely predictable consequence of today's decision, your DNA can be taken and entered into a national DNA database if you are ever arrested, rightly or wrongly, and for whatever reason," he wrote.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...337256566.html

  2. #2
    that scalia guy must really be a bitch to have a conversation with. never know which way his thoughts are going to flow. last week was the connick case, but this week we have this.

    I see DNA as an extension of the fingerprint, just like fingerprinting was an extension of previous attempts at body measurement. Just like a fingerprint left at a crime scene will forever haunt the police databases waiting for a match. The only argument I've seen against DNA are people of course connecting this to insurance, and thus the eventual government take over of healthcare. Basically, they have no understanding on how science, or the government works.

    How many people lives' would we have not ruined if DNA evidence was better understood earlier? I think we hit 300 some time last year.
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  3. #3
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    My only concern is tampering. Since DNA is viewed as nigh infallible, if someone monkeys with the crime scene sample, you are SCREWED.
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  4. #4
    Assuming there is adequate security/privacy for the database (which is not a constitutional issue), I don't see how using this for crime scene ID is any different from fingerprints (actually, it's far better than fingerprints). I wasn't too upset by this decision; kinda surprised it was 5-4.

  5. #5
    As Wiggin said, if that sort of collection and search is allowed for other biometric identification information like fingerprinting (it is) and if it is no less accurate than other allowed biometric data (it isn't), and if it poses no more risk or discomfort to the suspect than other permitted forms of searches (it doesn't), then I can't see the grounds for ruling it unconstitutional. As much as I disfavor the sort of "fishing expedition" that we all know these databases get used for.

    OG, I dunno. One assumes there's a reason Ruth Ginsburg is his closest friend on the court besides their shared taste in music and theater.
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  6. #6
    They were both raised in the outer boroughs.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    My only concern is tampering. Since DNA is viewed as nigh infallible, if someone monkeys with the crime scene sample, you are SCREWED.
    Interesting point. The amount of data required for a chain of custody of all samples for the time it is required to maintain this data is sort of mind-boggling.

  8. #8
    Screw-ups in chain of custody, challenges to lab techniques, or accusations of tampering with DNA evidence wouldn't end up in SCREWING the accused. That would more likely be used to exonerate perpetrators (with procedural challenges) than convictions of the innocent (based on DNA evidence). See the OJ trial.

  9. #9
    Ggt that was a very cogent point.

  10. #10
    If we're talking about the criminal justice process as applied to the quite wealthy then yes, she has a very cogent point. The results of the OJ Simpson trial are as much a result of him being able to employ a legal staff large enough to run down every avenue that presented itself, no matter how minor or unlikely it was to yield a successful challenge. Eventually some things stuck. At the lower end of the scale the ratios aren't as in favor of the accused. I desperately want to see a stronger public defender system.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    If we're talking about the criminal justice process as applied to the quite wealthy then yes, she has a very cogent point. The results of the OJ Simpson trial are as much a result of him being able to employ a legal staff large enough to run down every avenue that presented itself, no matter how minor or unlikely it was to yield a successful challenge. Eventually some things stuck. At the lower end of the scale the ratios aren't as in favor of the accused. I desperately want to see a stronger public defender system.
    I'd be OK with that if we can throw out stupid laws protecting criminals. If police do something improper they should be punished, but if it is known that the person is guilty even if the evidence obtained was done illegally that shouldn't let someone off free. A violation of someone's rights should never be a get out of jail free card.

  12. #12
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    ? How so you square that? If the information was gotten illegally then you can't use it. Which may mean there is not enough evidence to convict. How do you 'know' someone did something without a trial?
    Last edited by Veldan Rath; 06-06-2013 at 01:07 PM.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    ? How so you square that? If the information was gotten illegally then you can't use it. Which may mean they is not enough evidence to convict. How do you 'know' someone did something without a trial?


    But sure, use the illegally obtained evidence to bust criminals, just as long as you also punish the illegal evidence gathering
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    ? How so you square that? If the information was gotten illegally then you can't use it. Which may mean there is not enough evidence to convict. How do you 'know' someone did something without a trial?
    because lewk

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    ? How so you square that? If the information was gotten illegally then you can't use it. Which may mean there is not enough evidence to convict. How do you 'know' someone did something without a trial?
    I'm thinking he's saying that illegally obtained evidence should still be able to be used as evidence but that those who break the law to obtain it should be punished. In which case you can still know and under his system prove that the guilty person is guilty. A dubious argument ethically for obvious reasons but still logical if you accept his premise.

    Back in the real world, I think that the Supreme Court's decision is entirely logical and I'm surprised it was that close.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #16
    That would imply that the accused have no rights at all. After all, they are in no way compensated for their "rights" being violated in your scenario.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    If we're talking about the criminal justice process as applied to the quite wealthy then yes, she has a very cogent point. The results of the OJ Simpson trial are as much a result of him being able to employ a legal staff large enough to run down every avenue that presented itself, no matter how minor or unlikely it was to yield a successful challenge. Eventually some things stuck. At the lower end of the scale the ratios aren't as in favor of the accused. I desperately want to see a stronger public defender system.
    Wasn't that part of my "cogent" point? I agree with your desire to see a stronger public defense system...but that might begin with science and use of "experts" in court testimony. Available to all defendants, not merely the wealthy. DNA evidence that can't be contaminated by ineptitude or corruption, or highly-paid defense lawyers manipulating that into suspicion that creates reasonable doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    I'd be OK with that if we can throw out stupid laws protecting criminals. If police do something improper they should be punished, but if it is known that the person is guilty even if the evidence obtained was done illegally that shouldn't let someone off free. A violation of someone's rights should never be a get out of jail free card.
    Hang on. How is it "known" that a person is guilty, if the evidence was illegally obtained? That's giving the benefit of doubt to police, instead of the accused. A basic tenet of our justice system is to presume innocence until proven guilty in a court of law. It doesn't count if police or prosecutors use illegal tactics to distort the facts, or "stack" the jury pool.

    It definitely DOES matter if a defendents' rights have been violated.

    WTF are you talking about?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    That would imply that the accused have no rights at all. After all, they are in no way compensated for their "rights" being violated in your scenario.
    It's not my scenario though I see the logic in it.

    You could arrange compensation by providing equivalent compensation for illegal searches as other similar illegal intrusions. Perhaps they can get the same compensation I got for having my house illegally broken into - the one who did it getting a suspended sentence and I get to deal with the aftermath out of my own pocket.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  19. #19
    So the government can do whatever it wants to you, including violating your right to privacy, as long as it pays for it after the fact?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    ? How so you square that? If the information was gotten illegally then you can't use it. Which may mean there is not enough evidence to convict. How do you 'know' someone did something without a trial?
    I'm saying if information was illegally obtained that it should still be legally used in a trial. If the government shoots your leg it doesn't excuse you for stealing. If the government spies on you without a warrant and learns your a child molester you still need to be in prison. You have a right to certain things if they are violated you deserve recompense but not a get out of jail free card.

  21. #21
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    And you see no way this could be horridly abused?

    You sir are not a conservative.
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    So the government can do whatever it wants to you, including violating your right to privacy, as long as it pays for it after the fact?
    What should the punishment be if someone violates a person's right to privacy for example and they are not guilty of any crime. Should it be monetary? Should the person who broke the law with an illegal search and seizure go to jail?

    Great. Make that the punishment, period. Regardless if someone did the crime or not they get justice. However if they did do a crime then they still have their "debt to society."

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    And you see no way this could be horridly abused?

    You sir are not a conservative.
    If its abused then the punishment for the violation of rights by individuals should be increased. I don't get why you like get out of jail free cards for people who do crimes. If you do the crime you go to prison regardless if someone fucked up during the investigation.

  24. #24
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Which will then paralyze law enforcemt! They will be terrified of making an error, and may then be less vigorous in thier investigations. This MORE law breakers will go free.

    Awesome!
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  25. #25
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    If its abused then the punishment for the violation of rights by individuals should be increased. I don't get why you like get out of jail free cards for people who do crimes. If you do the crime you go to prison regardless if someone fucked up during the investigation.
    To keep tyranny at bay you shortsighted person. You sit at your keyboard railing about Big Fing Brother...then you want to sign up for this?
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  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Which will then paralyze law enforcemt! They will be terrified of making an error, and may then be less vigorous in thier investigations. This MORE law breakers will go free.

    Awesome!
    Yes punishing deliberate breaks of the law will make law enforcement paralyzed of causing an accident. Please.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    To keep tyranny at bay you shortsighted person. You sit at your keyboard railing about Big Fing Brother...then you want to sign up for this?
    Did we do away with jury trials? Hell present ALL the evidence to a jury and not let the judge throw stuff out that he thinks the "little people" can't handle. Tell them the evidence was obtained illegally but this is what it shows. I suppose tyranny from the bench and a bunch of lawyers is more important then trial by jury eh?

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    What should the punishment be if someone violates a person's right to privacy for example and they are not guilty of any crime. Should it be monetary? Should the person who broke the law with an illegal search and seizure go to jail?

    Great. Make that the punishment, period. Regardless if someone did the crime or not they get justice. However if they did do a crime then they still have their "debt to society."
    How does the cop going to jail help you, the person whose rights were violated? What you (and Rand) are saying is that the government can act as a de facto police state, spy on everyone, do whatever it takes to take down anyone it believes is engaged in wrong-doing, and then simply punish the officers responsible for these violations later?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #29
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Did we do away with jury trials? Hell present ALL the evidence to a jury and not let the judge throw stuff out that he thinks the "little people" can't handle. Tell them the evidence was obtained illegally but this is what it shows. I suppose tyranny from the bench and a bunch of lawyers is more important then trial by jury eh?
    Upholding the 4th amendment is tyranny from the bench? Seriously?
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  30. #30
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Yes punishing deliberate breaks of the law will make law enforcement paralyzed of causing an accident. Please.
    Police departments (tax payers) are being crushed with civil lawsuits, thus over moderating them already.

    With perception being reality, police will over correct by erring on the side of caution so as to not get thrown in jail themselves. This is how you view justice isn't it? The FEAR of going to jail? If it works on regular criminals then imagine what that would do to law abiding cops...they would be petrified of going to jail.
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