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Thread: Health Care Debate

  1. #1

    Default Health Care Debate

    I have this on live right now, Nancy Pelosi's talking about some sob stories from Michigan. Anyone else watching this?

    An interesting observation: the President, the VP, the House Speaker, Senate Majority Leader, the Minority Leaders, are all in the same room. I don't know about you, but if I were a terrorist . . . .
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I don't know about you, but if I were a terrorist . . . .
    ...you'd be arrested by the Feds, just like kathaksung...

  3. #3
    I've just started watching it....how long is this meeting scheduled to run?

  4. #4
    Six hours, I think.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  5. #5
    Wonder how many senior citizens (and chronically ill) are watching this, since Medicare is on the hot seat....

  6. #6
    I hope its a lot.

    EDIT: 16 perscription drugs, on average. WTF? There is no way to determine the interactions with that many drugs.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  7. #7
    Wouldn't doubt that number! Not only have physicians let go of primary care, they don't bother to ask patients those questions (takes too long, I guess?) or have a case manager. Even pharmacies don't do a good job of keeping track, assuming only one pharmacy is used.

    Happens all the time.

    *I wonder how much being said is actual fact instead of drama for the camera. Some of this we've discussed at the Other Place (The US has the BEST health care in the WORLD!....)

    Medicare is 37 TRILLION in the hole?
    Last edited by GGT; 02-25-2010 at 07:35 PM. Reason: *

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Wouldn't doubt that number! Not only have physicians let go of primary care, they don't bother to ask patients those questions (takes too long, I guess?) or have a case manager. Even pharmacies don't do a good job of keeping track, assuming only one pharmacy is used.

    Happens all the time.

    *I wonder how much being said is actual fact instead of drama for the camera. Some of this we've discussed at the Other Place (The US has the BEST health care in the WORLD!....)

    Medicare is 37 TRILLION in the hole?
    One republican actually said that - the bottom line is the US has the best health system in the world and the American people don't want to mess that up! or some such.

    I've listened to a few things off and on and there is a definitely strategy and list of talking points the republicans are using - I've heard it put out there, then major parts of it refuted dead on, only to be repeated again an hour later by a different senator. Those are the guys sitting there with printed copies of the bill in front of them for the "big government" effect.

    There was this hilarious exchange where John McCain complained about the 800k person exception to closing Medicare Advantage for seniors in Florida that must have been put in there to get support from congressmen in Florida. Obama said flatly he thought that was a legitimate complaint. McCain started waving his hands to press the attack then looked lost like he didn't know what to do with an agreement. The room got a chuckle out of it....
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  9. #9
    Ohh I missed that!

    ps it was Boehner who made the comment about US being bestest. Not sure who retorted it's best for those in the room, for rich or poor, but no one in the middle, and maybe everyone deserves what congress has.

    Biden seemed a bit rehearsed and frenetic. Grassly appeared as an idiot (to me). But in general everyone is calm and polite.

  10. #10
    Much of what these guys have been discussing is just what we've been discussing for a few years in the forum

    Philosophical differences between parties, money number spinning, incremental change vs sweeping reform, free market competition with government regulation, national vs state goals, plus the whole Trust issue.

    Republicans in general seem to want budget and tax reform, keeping the same system still run by Insurance but with a few mandates, and "start over". Democrats in general seem to want system reform, while keeping ties to Insurance, with broader/holistic goals. I'm trying to figure out if Obama and the dems are willing to agree to a few fast changes that everyone agrees with.....

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    One republican actually said that - the bottom line is the US has the best health system in the world and the American people don't want to mess that up! or some such.
    This how the "best system" works:

    Health reform website: Your Stories

    “My wife and I are both self employed, she left a state job 2 years back when we moved to Florida where I had taken a consulting position, I have been self employed for 15 years. We no longer were entitled to the great health benefits we enjoyed when my wife worked for the state. The issue is that our son has a pre-existing condition and we are unable to get insurance coverage for him. yes it is possible to get this coverage but at the cost of going bankrupt! I am not against paying toward health care but I do take issue when a child of 7 years of age can not get coverage due to insurance companies refising on grounds of pre-existing conditions that he shows no signs off? If we are supposedly the most advanced and caring nation in the world then how come a 7 year old child is refused health care or can not afford health care due to the high cost? Shame on us. Reform is needed urgently to address this shameful situation in our country.”
    – Stephen from Florida
    If it is the best system, why going elsewhere?

    FACTBOX: Five facts about medical tourism

    Medical tourism is booming as health care costs in developed countries spiral upward.
    Controversial couple dominates U.S. medical tourism

    These are heady days for the medical tourism industry. With U.S. healthcare prices spiraling upward, more and more insurers and individuals are looking abroad for treatment. By some estimates, 650,000 Americans will check into foreign hospitals from Mexico to Thailand this year.
    And this is what the "best system" does to US jobs.

    Humana cutting workforce by 1,400 jobs in 2010

    "This regrettable but necessary reduction in our workforce is a direct result of Humana's need to align the size of our company with that of our membership," Humana Chief Executive Officer Mike McCallister said in a statement.

  12. #12
    [Or WellPoint raising premiums by 29%]

    Who can do the wrap-up before they read the news?

    1) Insurance reform is needed; regulation and/or mandates, including pre-existing/life time cap/recissions

    2) New insurance exchanges for small business and individuals is an extension of freeee markets, not a government take-over

    3) Who decides what is Baseline coverage, and how do they decide (criteria)?

    4) Interstate purchases still need regulation so it's not a 'race to the bottom' to buy in a state with lax consumer protections

    5) Tort reform and malpractice changes against CYA medicine


    EDIT the other elephant was "Is health care a right, or a personal responsibility"

    Someone said that our justice system revolves around a presumption that provides a public defender, and how is basic health care any different?.....hmmm
    Last edited by GGT; 02-25-2010 at 10:10 PM.

  13. #13
    PS you can neutralise the drug-interaction problems by CT-ing them once a year!!
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    PS you can neutralise the drug-interaction problems by CT-ing them once a year!!
    Only if they're insured.

  15. #15
    good god we should be fighting universal healthcare in that case...
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  16. #16
    I was just wondering what my opinion would have been when the US was legislating Social Security and/or Medicare.

    /random thought

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    good god we should be fighting universal healthcare in that case...
    UK has it, even Costa Rica (a third world country) has it.

  18. #18
    Ok, I found it interesting how Obama made a mistake many posters make here. In an answer to a Republican Senator (I believe), he started by saying "I think we can agree, and that it isn't an ideological divide, that everyone supports some amount of regulation: think about what would happen if meat wasn't inspected by the government". Then he went on to say how insurance companies put people in different risk categories and price them accordingly; young people have low insurance rates and older people have high rates.

    It seems that he then implied that there is not an ideological divide between forcing insurance companies to have one pool (or subsidizing high risk pools) and not forcing them (or not subsidizing). In the first argument (for regulation), there's no divide, but in the second it is an enormous unbridgeable divide.

  19. #19
    What Obama meant (I think) is that we expect a certain degree of consumer safety regulation, from the food we eat to the meds we take, and it's not a SSSSocialist idea since even Republicans embrace some industry regulations for the benefit of the populace.

    edit and oh yeah, then he made the correlation to COST: reducing costs can't happen if it's all the old and sick in one pool, and the young or healthy in another.....that's not ideological, that's fact.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    What Obama meant (I think) is that we expect a certain degree of consumer safety regulation, from the food we eat to the meds we take, and it's not a SSSSocialist idea since even Republicans embrace some industry regulations for the benefit of the populace.
    So now we assume that something is not socialist if it enjoys Republican support? Maybe Republicans need to review their voting records.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    So now we assume that something is not socialist if it enjoys Republican support? Maybe Republicans need to review their voting records.
    As far as I can tell, the only ones calling Obama a SSSocialist are the Republicans. That's why I worded it that way.

  22. #22
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    It's real funny that the same people who say there shouldn't be an american health care system are the ones who try to use the argument that the american health care system is the best in the world
    Congratulations America

  23. #23
    ha ha, it would be funny if it weren't so NOT funny

    All those very important people, from both parties, treat previous entitlements as sacred cows---meant only for the old or poor.

    They're looking at the birth of our safety net (for post-war widows and orphan children) in the same way, even though our world has changed dramatically.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    It's real funny that the same people who say there shouldn't be an american health care system are the ones who try to use the argument that the american health care system is the best in the world
    Yeah, well, our bobsled team didn't chicken out. That must mean we have better healthcare.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    What Obama meant (I think) is that we expect a certain degree of consumer safety regulation, from the food we eat to the meds we take, and it's not a SSSSocialist idea since even Republicans embrace some industry regulations for the benefit of the populace.

    edit and oh yeah, then he made the correlation to COST: reducing costs can't happen if it's all the old and sick in one pool, and the young or healthy in another.....that's not ideological, that's fact.
    Er.... no, that's not fact... and it's incorrect. He even almost admitted that it's not efficient. Why should the old and young pay the same price, when they are buying different goods? Economically, it's like forcing everyone to pay the same for a car, but young people can only choose to buy a small car and old people can only choose to buy a luxury car. That doesn't make any sense. (I left out "sick" and "healthy" here because those are very subjective terms in this case.)

    That's forcing the young to subsidize the old, and that's not even factoring in any government subsidies.

    The ideological part comes in when you put everyone in the same pool regardless of cost.

  26. #26
    why is it worse to force the young to subsidise the old than it is to force the young to subsidise the young?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    why is it worse to force the young to subsidise the old than it is to force the young to subsidise the young?
    Because the proportion of young to old will fluctuate (currently decreasing) where as the proportion of young to young stays constant.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  28. #28
    what about just making the healthy subsidise the unhealthy?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  29. #29
    A healthcare proposal too big to succeed

    It seems that now insurance companies come to say the problem is small.
    It is like bankers saying that taxpayers are to be blamed for the crisis...

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Biden seemed a bit rehearsed and frenetic.
    He needs to be rehearsed.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Republicans in general seem to want budget and tax reform, keeping the same system still run by Insurance but with a few mandates, and "start over". Democrats in general seem to want system reform, while keeping ties to Insurance, with broader/holistic goals. I'm trying to figure out if Obama and the dems are willing to agree to a few fast changes that everyone agrees with.....
    "Start Over" is a red herring. Everyone in that room knows that starting over really means the end of health care reform and in practical terms the end the Obama Presidency's effectiveness.

    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Ok, I found it interesting how Obama made a mistake many posters make here. In an answer to a Republican Senator (I believe), he started by saying "I think we can agree, and that it isn't an ideological divide, that everyone supports some amount of regulation: think about what would happen if meat wasn't inspected by the government". Then he went on to say how insurance companies put people in different risk categories and price them accordingly; young people have low insurance rates and older people have high rates.

    It seems that he then implied that there is not an ideological divide between forcing insurance companies to have one pool (or subsidizing high risk pools) and not forcing them (or not subsidizing). In the first argument (for regulation), there's no divide, but in the second it is an enormous unbridgeable divide.
    I heard that part. I'm not sure how there can be an ideological divide on risk pooling. That's how insurance works, isn't it? It can't work effectively any other way. If you put all the high risk folks in their own pool then the whole concept is defeated. While I agree if you have risky behavior and willfully neglect your own health, you ought to pay higher premium, its just not acceptable to put all the old people and anyone within a high risk group due to factors they can't control into a separate, very expensive group. The vast majority of healthy people are needed to balance that.

    If that's an ideological divide it must be simply expressed as: "I got mine, fuck everyone else." That's no way to run a nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Er.... no, that's not fact... and it's incorrect. He even almost admitted that it's not efficient. Why should the old and young pay the same price, when they are buying different goods? Economically, it's like forcing everyone to pay the same for a car, but young people can only choose to buy a small car and old people can only choose to buy a luxury car. That doesn't make any sense. (I left out "sick" and "healthy" here because those are very subjective terms in this case.)

    That's forcing the young to subsidize the old, and that's not even factoring in any government subsidies.

    The ideological part comes in when you put everyone in the same pool regardless of cost.
    Its how insurance works, dude. Yeah, maybe sicker people should pay a little more, but if they are in their own pool, they can never keep up with all the costs. So the tax dollar will or they'll just die younger. Assuming we're not going back to letting the elderly just die when they can't pay, then what's the difference from keeping everyone in one pool? Its risk pooling in a different way - maybe this system lets insurance companies make a bigger profit? Yay!
    Last edited by EyeKhan; 02-26-2010 at 12:55 PM.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

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