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Thread: Minimum Wage and McBudgets

  1. #421
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    We all know that this argument is more fierce than ever because there are people struggling to make full-time employment living out of jobs designed to be mostly part-time and entry-level. That's a function of our bad economy.
    Well the problem has multiple areas to it.

    On one side we have people like Lewk who believe that these people are getting paid what they deserve because they are ignorant, lazy, uneducated, or unskilled, based on what he sees from his personal experiences, however not once has he stated that if a job pays below living wage, there are not going to be highly motivated, educated, skilled and knowledgeable people lining up to fill these positions or carrying them out. Then they also, since they have little actual personal experience in that area, feel like if these people were motivated, educated, skilled, etc. they would move up the corporate ladder quite quickly. Unfortunately a large number of retail stores have similar standard operating procedures where you cannot skip steps in the ladder when moving up, you must have had your current roll for X amount of time (usually six months to a year) before you can be considered for a promotion, and that promotion can only occur when a position becomes available. So if for instance you're the manager of a store, and the next rung up is District Manager, your upward mobility is pretty limited if all the DM's in your area expect to hold their positions for 5 - 10 years or more. Regardless, the pay raise for certain rungs may not be that much more than your current rate if you are really performing that well to be considered for a raise. For instance, some department managers are not making as much as I made per hour when I was working as an entry level Medical Animator, and only a few dollars more per hour than I am in a just-below-management position. Then there is also the fact that raises, and pay grade can be capped based on your job title (imagine the morale hit to hear that you qualified for a higher percentage raise, but it was capped lower due to corporate standards!), or even set based on your own personal performance and not company-wide performance (Well last year your department was up 30% to last year, and this year you're at 35 - 40%, so while you exceeded expectations of 10% last year, now you're meeting them since you established you can do 30 - 40%).

    On another side we have the fact that until demand decreases, or we invent robots/machines to do it, we require that people fill these positions, just as much as we demand/require people to be plumbers, mechanics, file clerks, dentists, doctors, professional football players, etc. Also if you want to pay someone, or you want to exclaim that someone should be paid as an unskilled/uneducated labourer, you shouldn't then demand from them skilled labour or educated insight into their job. You want to pay someone to take boxes off a truck, open them, and put them on the shelf for $8 an hour? That's fine, but what is really expected is that they formulate a highly efficient system for unloading the truck, opening the boxes, and putting the items on the shelf, while having a highly informed opinion and knowledge of the product they are stocking, along with a highly personable customer oriented personality with boundless energy and optimism that puts the company before any other life obligations or other jobs that they might have, all the while thinking about how to improve their current efficiency and do their job better.

    To be honest, this isn't even all of it, just what I feel like typing/writing up at the moment.
    . . .

  2. #422
    They are getting paid that because that is what they contribute to the market. You might not think it fair, but any attempt to fundamentally alter the system will bring about far more bad than good.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    They are getting paid that because that is what they contribute to the market.
    What metric are you using for contribution? Since from the standpoint of moving product from a truck to the shelf intact that its pretty integral to the retail experience. Is it from a monetary/profit standpoint? Then what metric are you using to determine the value of the labor? Or is it simply supply/demand for the particular skillset and applicant/hiring pool? A combination then?

    Also what you consider to be bad and good since we probably have different opinions.
    . . .

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    What metric are you using for contribution? Since from the standpoint of moving product from a truck to the shelf intact that its pretty integral to the retail experience. Is it from a monetary/profit standpoint? Then what metric are you using to determine the value of the labor? Or is it simply supply/demand for the particular skillset and applicant/hiring pool? A combination then?

    Also what you consider to be bad and good since we probably have different opinions.
    From the viewpoint of supply and demand. If you do a job that virtually anyone else in the country can do equally well with minimal training, you shouldn't be expecting to get paid a premium for doing it. There are plenty of jobs that are "hard" and integral to the economy. That's not how prices are set; they're set by supply and demand. After all, a doctor is far more valuable to humanity than an NBA player, yet the latter gets paid many times more than the former. If you'd like an economic system based on dictates from above, I hear Cuba and North Korea are looking for talent.

    You think a stagnant, noncompetitive economy with rising inflation is good? Why not go ask the Argentinians and the Venezuelans?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #425
    "The market" is us. Workers 'contribute' to a symbiotic relationship between buyers/sellers, creating demand for goods and services. There's no way to grow an economy, or expand opportunities, if people don't have money to spend.

  6. #426
    Ignoring the obvious fact that imposing price floors or price ceilings lowers efficiency and therefore lowers the amount of money in the entire economy.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  7. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Ignoring the obvious fact that imposing price floors or price ceilings lowers efficiency and therefore lowers the amount of money in the entire economy.
    Even Walmart, McDonald's, and Costco have floors and ceilings for their products. Bulk discounts, cheap prices, profits from huge customer base. That's a different kind of "efficiency", but it's grown the amount of money in the economy. Classical supply and demand economics can't really be applied to the labor force in the new economy, post-recession, that's still stagnating.

    Well, it can, but only if we want to consider workers as widgets, with pesky human needs. Would be more "efficient" to automate with robots...and hire a handful of computer engineers to maintain/repair the machinery. Wouldn't even need janitorial staff, just a closetful of Roombas. Schools could pay students peanuts to clean up, instead of hiring a 50 yr old janitor who needs to support a family and save for retirement. Oh, wait....Gingrich already proposed that.

  8. #428
    I'm fairly sure you have no idea what a price floor or price ceiling is based on that post...

    Incidentally, the more expensive you make labor, the more sense it makes to automate jobs...
    Hope is the denial of reality

  9. #429
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    If you'd like an economic system based on dictates from above, I hear Cuba and North Korea are looking for talent.
    So, pray tell: Do those countries actually use that economic system?

    It's a yes or no answer, Loki, so you should be able to answer it with one of your one-liners.
    When the stars threw down their spears
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  10. #430
    Most prices in those countries are set by the government, yes...
    Hope is the denial of reality

  11. #431
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    You were talking about wages.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  12. #432
    Wages are one type of prices, and they're set by those governments as well.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Big paychecks aren't the problem. Having individual millionaires or billionaires isn't the complaint. It's more about the corporate/institutional control of earnings and profits that don't trickle down to 90% of the population. For years we've read about business and investor class "uncertainty" (aka fear) sitting on $2 trillion. Instead of putting it to work in the real economy by innovating and hiring....our financial system incentivizes off-shore accounts, moving money around internationally, and gambling via securitization and derivates. Emphasis on financial.
    Once again, at the center of your blizzard of buzzwords, is this nonsense idea that people just swim on piles of gold coins.


    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Well the problem has multiple areas to it.

    On one side we have people like Lewk who believe that these people are getting paid what they deserve because they are ignorant, lazy, uneducated, or unskilled, based on what he sees from his personal experiences, however not once has he stated that if a job pays below living wage, there are not going to be highly motivated, educated, skilled and knowledgeable people lining up to fill these positions or carrying them out. Then they also, since they have little actual personal experience in that area, feel like if these people were motivated, educated, skilled, etc. they would move up the corporate ladder quite quickly. Unfortunately a large number of retail stores have similar standard operating procedures where you cannot skip steps in the ladder when moving up, you must have had your current roll for X amount of time (usually six months to a year) before you can be considered for a promotion, and that promotion can only occur when a position becomes available. So if for instance you're the manager of a store, and the next rung up is District Manager, your upward mobility is pretty limited if all the DM's in your area expect to hold their positions for 5 - 10 years or more. Regardless, the pay raise for certain rungs may not be that much more than your current rate if you are really performing that well to be considered for a raise. For instance, some department managers are not making as much as I made per hour when I was working as an entry level Medical Animator, and only a few dollars more per hour than I am in a just-below-management position. Then there is also the fact that raises, and pay grade can be capped based on your job title (imagine the morale hit to hear that you qualified for a higher percentage raise, but it was capped lower due to corporate standards!), or even set based on your own personal performance and not company-wide performance (Well last year your department was up 30% to last year, and this year you're at 35 - 40%, so while you exceeded expectations of 10% last year, now you're meeting them since you established you can do 30 - 40%).

    On another side we have the fact that until demand decreases, or we invent robots/machines to do it, we require that people fill these positions, just as much as we demand/require people to be plumbers, mechanics, file clerks, dentists, doctors, professional football players, etc. Also if you want to pay someone, or you want to exclaim that someone should be paid as an unskilled/uneducated labourer, you shouldn't then demand from them skilled labour or educated insight into their job. You want to pay someone to take boxes off a truck, open them, and put them on the shelf for $8 an hour? That's fine, but what is really expected is that they formulate a highly efficient system for unloading the truck, opening the boxes, and putting the items on the shelf, while having a highly informed opinion and knowledge of the product they are stocking, along with a highly personable customer oriented personality with boundless energy and optimism that puts the company before any other life obligations or other jobs that they might have, all the while thinking about how to improve their current efficiency and do their job better.

    To be honest, this isn't even all of it, just what I feel like typing/writing up at the moment.
    I get what you're saying, but I think the key differentiator is companies learning how the invest/develop their workforces vs. being forced to pay an arbitrarily-set hourly wage because it makes voters and bureaucrats feel good.

    Retail is a crazy business, but most manage to survive with razor-thin margins that allow them to sell products extremely cheaply. There are only a few out there like Costco; clearly each business is building a set of labor incentives that work well for that particular company.

  14. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    From the viewpoint of supply and demand. If you do a job that virtually anyone else in the country can do equally well with minimal training, you shouldn't be expecting to get paid a premium for doing it. There are plenty of jobs that are "hard" and integral to the economy. That's not how prices are set; they're set by supply and demand. After all, a doctor is far more valuable to humanity than an NBA player, yet the latter gets paid many times more than the former.
    I wasn't basing this on how hard the job is to do, but the demand from the public or the corporation itself for a specific job, and how essential it is to the functioning of that business. For instance if Walmart greeters all went on strike simultaneously, and were not replaced, the shopping experience would remain relatively unchanged, but if replenishment and floor associates all striked store operation would be severely hampered or at a standstill (you could of course replace them). That and most shoppers demand or at least want to be able to ask a floor associate for advice, opinions, and information about the store and products, otherwise you're pretty much running a physical and less convenient version of Amazon.com. Again, regardless of all of this, my experience is that shoppers want a better experience, they want more people on the floor, more cashiers, and more knowledgeable associates, but corporate will keep with the current plan since even though they are complaining or sending in suggestions, it hasn't stopped shoppers from spending money yet, nor have they indicated that they are willing to spend more for a better experience. It could also be that corporate is too far detached from the actual on the ground experience and just sees us as numbers and metrics (which may not be accurate*).


    * May not be accurate because, in an attempt to seem efficient or more-efficient, managers have reported accomplishing tasks in less hours/with less people than the estimate corporate gave them, then corporate assumes that we weren't being efficient because we're the unskilled drones, and again lowers the estimate for next time (repeat until its obvious someone is fudging numbers).


    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I get what you're saying, but I think the key differentiator is companies learning how the invest/develop their workforces vs. being forced to pay an arbitrarily-set hourly wage because it makes voters and bureaucrats feel good.

    Retail is a crazy business, but most manage to survive with razor-thin margins that allow them to sell products extremely cheaply. There are only a few out there like Costco; clearly each business is building a set of labor incentives that work well for that particular company.
    Because the labor pool is large and desperate. I would have to say that we have a core group of employees who have been there for years, and the rest is built up out of a large number of associates who will only stay about a month to six, or however long it takes them to get fed up with the job or find a better one. We've lost a fair number of good employees because they found another job that pays a dollar or two more, with better hours, and less rudeness/bullshit/bureaucracy.
    Last edited by Illusions; 12-14-2013 at 07:52 PM.
    . . .

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I'm fairly sure you have no idea what a price floor or price ceiling is based on that post...

    Incidentally, the more expensive you make labor, the more sense it makes to automate jobs...
    And you're hung up on which entity makes price floors, attaching a positive to corporate and a negative to government. You also want to consider goods and labor as 'inventory' equals, as businesses like to do. Of course it can make sense to automate and mechanize, when that increases productivity output and efficiency...and profits. But that's just a dry rehash of classical supply and demand, which doesn't reflect today's human economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Once again, at the center of your blizzard of buzzwords, is this nonsense idea that people just swim on piles of gold coins.
    The center is the middle class, and middle income jobs -- that was responsible for building the world's largest economy, and mobilized millions of working people from poverty into the "American Dream" -- which has been decimated the last decade. The center cannot hold in the new service/retail economy, where the top 1-10% consistently gets richer and everyone else is struggling to keep pace, or gets poorer.

    Plenty of businesses, especially multi-national conglomerates, make billions on "razor-thin" profit margins. But the same isn't true for individuals or families trying to make ends meet, or get ahead, on the same "razor's edge". Many companies practice an ethical business model by paying a living wage, 'investing' in employee health and education, offering 401-K matching contributions, etc. and recognize that as the community grows, so does their business. Costco, Whole Foods, and Starbucks are good examples.

    But far too many dissociate their business from its employees, and consumers at large, robbing Peter to Pay Paul. Walmart uses that model....to the detriment of entire communities. For every Walmart Superstore, around $900,000 is needed in public assistance for their employees (food stamps, Medicaid, section 8 housing, subsidized school lunches). Instead of paying better wages -- that would stimulate other consumer business in that area, and reduce state tax burdens -- they have stock buy-backs for its shareholders.

  16. #436
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    Well, soon we're going to be able to see which side of the debate is right; Germany is going from a no-minimum wage economy to a minimum wage economy. And from the looks of it, the minimum wage will be set on the high side.
    Congratulations America

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Even Walmart, McDonald's, and Costco have floors and ceilings for their products. Bulk discounts, cheap prices, profits from huge customer base. That's a different kind of "efficiency", but it's grown the amount of money in the economy. Classical supply and demand economics can't really be applied to the labor force in the new economy, post-recession, that's still stagnating.

    Well, it can, but only if we want to consider workers as widgets, with pesky human needs. Would be more "efficient" to automate with robots...and hire a handful of computer engineers to maintain/repair the machinery. Wouldn't even need janitorial staff, just a closetful of Roombas. Schools could pay students peanuts to clean up, instead of hiring a 50 yr old janitor who needs to support a family and save for retirement. Oh, wait....Gingrich already proposed that.
    If someone events a cleaning robot so we don't need 50 year old janitors should we ban the cleaning robo in order to protect the janitors job?

  18. #438
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    If someone events a cleaning robot so we don't need 50 year old janitors should we ban the cleaning robo in order to protect the janitors job?
    You can have people work for subsistence or you can provide subsistence for them with money taken from others or you can let them die. Which do you prefer?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
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  19. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    You can have people work for subsistence or you can provide subsistence for them with money taken from others or you can let them die. Which do you prefer?
    That's a false choice since that's not the situation.

  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Because the labor pool is large and desperate. I would have to say that we have a core group of employees who have been there for years, and the rest is built up out of a large number of associates who will only stay about a month to six, or however long it takes them to get fed up with the job or find a better one. We've lost a fair number of good employees because they found another job that pays a dollar or two more, with better hours, and less rudeness/bullshit/bureaucracy.
    RE your last sentence, I say good! People are hustling a better situation for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Well, soon we're going to be able to see which side of the debate is right; Germany is going from a no-minimum wage economy to a minimum wage economy. And from the looks of it, the minimum wage will be set on the high side.
    I agree, this will be interesting to watch (almost as interesting as if the Swiss pass their "minimum income" rule, which is unlikely). That said, Germany is much better at workplace training and vocational measures that train workers to actually be worth higher wages. I suspect this will make the change fairly minimal for many German workers, and not really impact the Hipsters of Neukolln who do so much off-the-books work anyway. But there will be a subset of less-skilled workers (and their employers) who may see some squeeze here; we'll see.

  21. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    If someone events a cleaning robot so we don't need 50 year old janitors should we ban the cleaning robo in order to protect the janitors job?
    Why do you always jump on the BAN wagon when that's not even been mentioned? The Roomba (cleaning robot) has already been invented. My comments about productivity, efficiency, and labor market changes aren't "complaints" about innovations or technology - but I am concerned about becoming a two-tiered society, and the repercussions.

    The big question is what to do about an economy in flux, when the transition isn't creating enough jobs for people needing one....let alone jobs that pay middle-income wages. We could have "full employment", unemployment less than 5%, but if they're predominantly minimum wage or low paying jobs and the middle income quintile is hollowed out -- the economy would still be unhealthy. Do you agree or disagree?

  22. #442
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    That is not were Lewk was going and you MUST know that.

    If a effective cleaning robot was developed that could do more than sweep up the dust bunnies and seriously clean, it could replace 50 yr old janitors.

    You are the one that brought up the 50 yr old, Lewk was trying to nail you down on specifics. If cleaning services decided to replace staff with machines, is that bad or good?
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  23. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Why do you always jump on the BAN wagon when that's not even been mentioned? The Roomba (cleaning robot) has already been invented. My comments about productivity, efficiency, and labor market changes aren't "complaints" about innovations or technology - but I am concerned about becoming a two-tiered society, and the repercussions.

    The big question is what to do about an economy in flux, when the transition isn't creating enough jobs for people needing one....let alone jobs that pay middle-income wages. We could have "full employment", unemployment less than 5%, but if they're predominantly minimum wage or low paying jobs and the middle income quintile is hollowed out -- the economy would still be unhealthy. Do you agree or disagree?
    Predominantly minimum wage jobs? Are you serious? We had this discussion before; only about 2% of the labor force is paid the minimum wage.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #444
    I said
    predominantly minimum wage or low paying jobs and the middle income quintile is hollowed out
    .

    Yeah, we've gone over this before -- the shrinking middle. Plus, retail/service jobs growing as percentage of all jobs, 2/3 of those jobs paying less than $35,000/yr for full-time hours, and those positions held mostly by adults (not teens looking for pocket change).

  25. #445
    Less than $35k? Wow, that's poverty wages.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  26. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    That is not were Lewk was going and you MUST know that.

    If a effective cleaning robot was developed that could do more than sweep up the dust bunnies and seriously clean, it could replace 50 yr old janitors.

    You are the one that brought up the 50 yr old, Lewk was trying to nail you down on specifics. If cleaning services decided to replace staff with machines, is that bad or good?
    There's no black-or-white answer for that, unless it's devoid of all context, or what "good or bad" we mean. We already have the ability to replace millions of working people with machines, computers, robots. And we've already done that in most areas of society. My concern is what those millions of people will DO to support themselves, let a lone a family.

    It's not like every Travel Agent or Bookkeeper (whose job was replaced by IT or automation) can become an astrophysicist or computer programmer. That's the paradox of progress: the more efficient and sophisticated we become, the fewer people we'll need as workers -- even in specialized fields like accounting, education, or law.

  27. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Less than $35k? Wow, that's poverty wages.
    It is in NYC. And almost every urban city where most of the population lives and works. That can be enough to make ends meet, but after spending 30% on housing, 10-20% on healthcare, 20% on food, 10% on utilities or transportation, plus student loans or credit card debt or transportation costs....there's not enough left over to save that 10% for a rainy day fund, let alone retirement....and you're broke, living paycheck-to-paycheck.

    You can double household income with cohabitation or marriage, but it won't make having a child or raising a family any more affordable.

  28. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    There's no black-or-white answer for that, unless it's devoid of all context, or what "good or bad" we mean. We already have the ability to replace millions of working people with machines, computers, robots. And we've already done that in most areas of society. My concern is what those millions of people will DO to support themselves, let a lone a family.

    It's not like every Travel Agent or Bookkeeper (whose job was replaced by IT or automation) can become an astrophysicist or computer programmer. That's the paradox of progress: the more efficient and sophisticated we become, the fewer people we'll need as workers -- even in specialized fields like accounting, education, or law.
    Yup. That's why the world went through a horrific crisis when we moved past the agrarian age. When we stopped needing as many farmers ALL THE JOBS WENT AWAY!

  29. #449
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Except we had immediate low skilled jobs to replace them Lewk. That Industrial Age thing...

    The Information Age is not so forgiving. There are only so many Genius Bar jobs available and a lot of the folks that will lose jobs in low skilled realms WILL have issues finding new work.
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  30. #450
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Yeah, a 50 year old will have it easy to train for a completely different job and als find a job. Right.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

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