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  1. #1

    Default Disgusted

    http://news.yahoo.com/india-juvenile...100222306.html

    NEW DELHI (AP) — An Indian juvenile court on Saturday handed down the first conviction in the fatal gang rape of a young woman on a moving New Delhi bus, convicting a teenager of rape and murder and sentencing him to three years in a reform home, lawyers said.

    The victim's mother denounced the sentence, which was the maximum the defendant faced. The family had long insisted the teenager, who was 17 at the time of the attack and is now 18, be tried as an adult — and so face the death penalty — insisting he was the most brutal of the woman's attackers.

    "He should be hanged irrespective of whether he is a juvenile or not. He should be punished for what he did to my daughter," the mother, Asha Devi, told reporters after the verdict was announced.

    Indian law forbids the publication of the teenager's name because he was sentenced in a juvenile court.

    The attack, which left the 23-year-old victim with such extensive internal injuries that she died two weeks later, sparked protests across the country and led to reforms of India's antiquated sexual violence laws. The government, facing immense public pressure, had promised swift justice in the case.

    The convicted defendant was one of six people accused of tricking the woman and her male companion into boarding an off-duty bus Dec. 16 after they had seen an afternoon showing of "Life of Pi" at a upscale shopping mall. Police say the men raped the woman and used a metal bar to inflict massive internal injuries to her. They also beat her companion. The victims were dumped naked on the roadside, and the woman died from her injuries in a Singapore hospital.

    The victim's father said the family was deeply disappointed with the verdict.

    "This is completely unacceptable to us," Badrinath Singh said. "We are not satisfied with this outcome. He is virtually being set free. This is very wrong."

    Indian law forbids the publication of the names of rape victims, even if they die.

    S.K. Singh, a lawyer for the victim's family, said they would challenge the juvenile court's verdict in a higher court.

    "We will also seek a review of the man's age by a medical panel, since we believe he was not a juvenile when the incident took place," Singh said.

    In India, especially in rural areas, many people do not have their births properly registered, and school certificates are used as proof of age.

    Singh and the defendant's lawyer, Rajesh Tewari, both confirmed that the defendant had been convicted and his sentence.

    Four of the other defendants are being tried in a special fast-track court in New Delhi and face the death penalty. The sixth accused was found dead in his jail cell in March. The court is expected to hand down the rest of the verdicts in September.

    The convicted defendant was tried as a minor on charges including murder and rape. The time he spent in a juvenile home since he was arrested in December will count as part of his sentence, Tewari said.

    The attack set off furious protests across India about the treatment of women in the country and led to an overhaul of sexual assault laws.

    A government panel set to suggest reforms to sexual assault laws rejected calls to lower the age at which people can be tried as adults from 18 to 16.

    In July, India's top court also refused to reduce the age of a juvenile from 18 to 16 years. However, it later agreed to hear a new petition seeking to take the "mental and intellectual maturity" of the defendant into account and not just age.

    *****

    Sure hope justice is done in the rest of the cases because 3 years is a fucking joke. 17 is an adult - if your old enough to make the decision to RIP SOMEONES INTESTINES OUT you're old enough to die for your crimes.

  2. #2
    3 years for this crime is disgusting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #3
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    I'm shocked and suprised they didn't rule to try him as an adult.
    Congratulations America

  4. #4
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    They probably don't have that legal loophole. Not to mention that such a loophole is not such a good idea in the first place - if you try them as an adult as soon as you don't like the results, why differentiate between minors and adults in the first place?

    Really shouldn't be that easy to switch. Because we're seeing the results of such a loophole in the US where 12 year old children are tried as adults.
    When the stars threw down their spears
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  5. #5
    Why am I not surprised that you think this is an appropriate punishment? I'm sure the guy will grow up to be an upstanding citizen. After all, everyone makes mistakes like viciously gang-raping and murdering an innocent woman.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #6
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Dear Loki, pray tell where I said that this was an appropriate punishment? Methinks your reading skills are sorely lacking.

    No surprise there.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  7. #7
    "Not to mention that such a loophole is not such a good idea in the first place - if you try them as an adult as soon as you don't like the results, why differentiate between minors and adults in the first place?"
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    "Not to mention that such a loophole is not such a good idea in the first place - if you try them as an adult as soon as you don't like the results, why differentiate between minors and adults in the first place?"
    He's saying that on the whole it's good to follow the law and to not allow for arbitrary exceptions. More specifically, he's affirming the principle of differentiating between adults and children.

    That being said, there is no absolute requirement--in principle--to adhere to a specific and arbitrary chronological age when it comes to deciding whether or not a person should be treated as an adult in a given situation. That's esp. true when you're close to the cutoff, eg. about to turn 18 in a situation where the cutoff is 18yrs. So, Khen, I don't think it would have been wrong or dangerous to treat him as an adult in this situation. It's not comparable to treating a 12-y-o as an adult.

    Curious as to how often we see the above reasoning going in the opposite direction, eg. treating someone over 18 as a juvenile.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  9. #9
    Most countries' laws (including India's) allow for exceptions when it comes to trying juveniles for especially heinous crimes.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #10
    What's the age of sexual consent there? Here in the UK the age of consent is 16 - as it is or lower in pretty much all the rest of Europe - and I am curious why a 16 year old in your eyes Khen/Minx is regarded as a consenting adult that can make any choices they want, but a rapist at 17 is a juvenile.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #11
    A 16 year old here can't make any choices they want. They can't drive, nor drink, nor purchase cigarettes, nor gamble. Why d'you think that is Rand?

    The law necessarily arbitrates on the age of responsibility. That arbitrary age is 18. Before that age the law will try you as a juvenile, because the law deems a juvenile not to be of a mature enough age to take full consideration of the consequences of their actions. IOW, a juvenile, in the eyes of the law, is not fully responsible for their actions.

    In the event of particularly grievous crimes committed by a juvenile, as indicated by Loki up there, the law has provision. As it should.

    I am reminded of the James Bulger murder, committed by the 10 year olds Robert Thompson and Jon Venables. Even at that very young age, they were tried as adults, in an adult court (though this was later criticised by the European Court of Human Rights).

    What Khen is pointing out (as I see it) is that the law shouldn't be dismissed and ignored over one exceptional case. Which I absolutely agree with. The law is, and has to be, objective for very good reasons.

    Where, however, the law is found to be wanting in the eyes of the wider public, there should also be provision for review. A 3 year sentence for a juvenile who was central to the gang-rape and murder of a woman fits that criteria. The law in India has fallen short, and needs review.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  12. #12
    17 year olds can drive here and again I don't think that's unusual across the world. They can quit education, get a job, get welfare if they don't get a job, pay taxes, get (legally) pregnant. In the UK they can even join the military though that is I believe less usual.

    To act like a 17 year old is no different to a 9 year old and completely different to an 18 year old is absurd and any law that does that needs changing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    What's the age of sexual consent there? Here in the UK the age of consent is 16 - as it is or lower in pretty much all the rest of Europe - and I am curious why a 16 year old in your eyes Khen/Minx is regarded as a consenting adult that can make any choices they want, but a rapist at 17 is a juvenile.
    According to wikipedia at least the AoC is 18 in India. I am however unsure as to why you seem to believe that the age of consent and the age at which you're tried as an adult by the criminal justice system should be the same. The age of consent in Spain is 13 but I'd generally be hesitant to try a 14-y-o as an adult.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    According to wikipedia at least the AoC is 18 in India. I am however unsure as to why you seem to believe that the age of consent and the age at which you're tried as an adult by the criminal justice system should be the same. The age of consent in Spain is 13 but I'd generally be hesitant to try a 14-y-o as an adult.
    Because if the State recognises you as old enough to get pregnant and be a parent with all the responsibilities that entails then I think you're old enough to know not to brutally rape and murder someone.

    I'd be more hesitant of a 13 year old age of consent than a 14 year old tried as an adult.

    Which do you think comes later to a person: knowing what it takes to be a parent and to have responsible sex, or knowing its wrong to brutally rape and murder someone?

    PS Its worth noting that the AoC was only raised to 18 very recently in India, either after this or a similar case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #15
    Rapist may have HIV from Greater Manchester victim

    A man who has been jailed for raping a woman is waiting to find out whether he has contracted HIV from her.

    Richard Thomas was sentenced to five years and four months after admitting raping the woman at her home in Leigh, Greater Manchester.

    He knew she was ill but did not know she had HIV and collapsed when police told him, Liverpool Crown Court heard.

    Thomas, 27, of Sandringham Drive, Leigh, raped the woman after she had taken a sleeping tablet.
    'His own fault'

    He said he had been drinking heavily and taken drugs, and could not recall the attack but believed the woman, the court heard.

    Thomas had let himself into the house uninvited in the middle of the night and the woman, who had taken a sleeping tablet, awoke to find him raping her.

    Harry Pepper, prosecuting, said: "She froze and no words were exchanged. He pulled up his shorts and left."

    Judge Mark Brown described the crime as "dreadful".

    Thomas is due to find out whether he has contracted HIV later in the week.

    His barrister, Virginia Hayton, said: "It is his own fault, if he had not committed this offence he would not have placed himself in this position."
    I got in touch with my inner Lewkowski and smiled a bit at this.
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  16. #16
    Isn't his barrister meant to be defending him?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    Sounds like the guy has pled guilty so he's supposed to show contrition and acceptance of his actions if he wants leniency at sentencing.

    Somehow doesn't surprise me that its a case from Leigh. Horrible town.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #18
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    What's the age of sexual consent there? Here in the UK the age of consent is 16 - as it is or lower in pretty much all the rest of Europe - and I am curious why a 16 year old in your eyes Khen/Minx is regarded as a consenting adult that can make any choices they want, but a rapist at 17 is a juvenile.
    Did I say something about the age somewhere? Strange, I must have since you're telling me that I did so.

    And a 16 year old, while being able to "consent" is most definitely not an adult, my dear. You're conflating two different concepts. Being allowed to have sex does not make you an adult.

    I mean, if we take a different concept, if adulthodd were the age at which you're legally allowed to buy and drink beer in a pub (16 in Germany) we'd suddenly have the strange result that, as a result, 20 year olds in the US are not yet adults.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  19. #19
    Adult is a vague term and there is not a single line in the sand that says "if this child, if that adult" as it varies depending upon context. 16/17 year olds are more "young adult" than "child".

    Frankly in the context of knowing not to rape and murder someone 17 is adult enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #20
    Adult is not vague in the slightest in the context of the law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  21. #21
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Well, 18 is considered an adult over here and still not able to buy beer...
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    Adult is not vague in the slightest in the context of the law.
    It is vague in the fact there are varying thresholds. There is no individual age at which point all thresholds are crossed normally. So I don't see why the threshold needs to be 18 for criminal responsibility and its not fixed there in all circumstances in most nations I know.

    Hence why it is not unusual to try under-18s as adults in certain cases and in cases such as this I think it is very reasonable. If you are old enough to be considered an adult past the age of consent for sex, if you're old enough to legally become a parent then as far as I'm concerned you're adult enough to know not to rape or murder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Dear Loki, pray tell where I said that this was an appropriate punishment? Methinks your reading skills are sorely lacking.

    No surprise there.
    So lets not leave anyone guessing - what do you think an appropriate punishment should be for the murdering rapist?

  24. #24
    I missed the part where we force girls under the age of 16 to use oral contraceptives and to get abortions if they become pregnant.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  25. #25
    What are you talking about?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #26
    I'm talking about how you can't derive laws about criminal responsibility from laws about statutory rape.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  27. #27
    And I'm saying you can draw an equivalence.

    Why is someone regarded old enough to consensually have sex and potentially have children legally ... Not old enough to know they shouldn't rape and murder?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #28
    Why are they old enough to have sex but not vote, drink, smoke, drive or be automatically be emancipated?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  29. #29
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Wow, are you really arguin that a 16/17 does not know that rape is wrong?
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Wow, are you really arguin that a 16/17 does not know that rape is wrong?
    Have I said that?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

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