Child Stimulus- China Quasi Ends One Child Policy

[Dreadnaught]

My understanding is that a substantial number of non-party non-rural Chinese are only children, so this is actually a pretty big change. That said, I imagine it's too late to avoid the demographic imbalances China is worried about. I'm also disappointed that there isn't any real zeal for environmental reform going along with it (as environmental concerns are now often discussed hand-in-hand with the one-child policy).

That said, this new policy seems to inject even an weirder level of social engineering into the mix. Are couples going to face pressure to marry someone with a certain number of siblings because their parents want a larger family? It seems like could be a bulge of kids and then something of an in-between zone of flat population growth.

China to Ease One-Child Policy
Leaders Will Also Abolish Re-Education Through Labor

By CARLOS TEJADA
Nov. 15, 2013 6:21 a.m. ET
BEIJING—Chinese leaders agreed to loosen its one-child policy and abolish a controversial form of detention without trial, the official Xinhua news agency said Friday.

Xinhua said authorities will now allow couples to have two children if one of the parents is an only child. Currently, couples are restricted to one child except in some areas.

The shift comes as critics both inside and outside China warn that a rapidly aging population could hurt the competitiveness of the world's No. 2 economy.

China will also abolish re-education through labor "as part of efforts to improve human rights and judicial practices," Xinhua said. Under the controversial system, many people have been sent to labor camps for up to four years without trial or conviction by the judiciary.

In August, the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, an influential government-run think tank, said abuses in the system have become increasingly apparent and had given rise to widespread public opposition.

The changes came as the result of a four-day meeting of top Communist Party leaders that ended Tuesday. The full report on that meeting was released late Friday. The meeting was intended to chart China's economic reform course in coming years.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...99431427590394

[RandBlade]

Should have been done sooner, funny that we were discussing this last night in another thread and then today this is announced. About time. Would be better to drop all the restrictions at once but I suppose for many conservative Communists this is a step change by itself and it is a change in the right direction. Now that this first step has been taken it can only be a matter of time (probably years) until the policy is dropped completely either in theory or in practice.

[wiggin]

They've actually been piloting this for a while; should have just gotten rid of the system entirely, but better than nothing. Still isn't going to arrest the inevitable demographic disaster - they're far too gone for that - but it might mitigate it a smidgen.

I'm really hoping the 3rd plenum did something about the mess with the hukou system; hopefully they'll announce something in the coming weeks.

[Spawnie]

To add a small bit of experience from living in China, it was explained to me when there that the system above was already in operation - a couple could only have one child, but then that child could have more than one child, the grandchildren were then limited to one child again.

The punishment for having more than one child was increased taxation. I heard in my office today as "common knowledge" that any extraneous children were forcibly aborted. Because some people are stupid dickheads.

Whenever the one child policy was spoken about in my presence, the environmental aspect was always raised as a primary reason.

[Loki]

Actually, forcible abortion still takes place, albeit in the countryside and the practice isn't as widespread as it was in the past.

[Spawnie]

Im sure it and many other disgusting things go on in the countryside. But the point is that it was never law and the Chinese arent some monstrous civilisation of animals. Was pretty annoying to hear that kind of "fact" bandied about.

[Loki]

I don't know if it was ever formally law, but it was carried out widely by government officials and tolerated (and quite possibly encouraged) by higher-level officials.

The widespread use of labor camps, often just to silence local complaints, isn't exactly an example of China's virtue either.

[RandBlade]

Im sure it and many other disgusting things go on in the countryside. But the point is that it was never law and the Chinese arent some monstrous civilisation of animals. Was pretty annoying to hear that kind of "fact" bandied about.

It was forced on women by the state. I recall an outrageous case when I lived in Australia about someone who was pregnant (already having a a child) who had illegally entered Australia by boat being deported back to China. The government of the time was taking a hard line against "boat people" (still seem to be in fact). Instead she was deported back to China while being nearly nine months pregnant. And after arriving back in China she was made to have an abortion. An abortion at nearly nine months is illegal in this country at least but the Chinese forced her to have one so I don't care if its "annoying" if its true that's even more annoying.

I remembered this case from the news while I lived there and Googled for it and found this article from 1999 referencing the case: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/1999/05/refu-m12.html

Odd source website but I saw it on the Aussie TV news in 1999 but its hard to find mainstream sources for 1999 news articles now.

EDIT: Found it! Transcript from ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) news report on the case: http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/stories/s24134.htm - A forced abortion 10 days before the due date. That is monstrous.

[Dreadnaught]

[GGT]

The widespread use of labor camps, often just to silence local complaints, isn't exactly an example of China's virtue either.

They're reportedly changing that policy, too. Not sure if it's believable yet.

[Loki]

Only time will tell.

[wiggin]

Forced abortions are still very much a part of Chinese policy, and not just over a decade back. Just last year there was a hugely sensational case in China that made it big because photos were posted online, but it's hardly an isolated incident. It's not as common a practice as some people might think, but it's still absolutely horrendous.

Source: http://www.economist.com/node/21557369

[RandBlade]

Typically like the abuses of many Communism or other authoritarian regimes, those with some power and influence won't have it done but those low enough on the food chain that the authorities think pervertedly that it'd be approved and they can get away with it ... then it'll happen. Its neither every time, but nor is it that it doesn't happen. There's more than enough evidence to believe it happens far too often.

[GGT]

Source: http://www.economist.com/node/21557369

That's disgusting, tragic, horrifying, beyond words.

These atrocities always punish women, treating their bodies as "incubators" for the undesired. Sure, they may "tax" men under the auspice of punishing the household 'bread winner'...but they don't castrate him or force him to have a vasectomy. Not even the itinerate farmer with no way to pay the "tax" would have his reproductive organs violated by the State.

This can't be pinned on Communism or Dictatorships alone, though...because we have Patriarchal and Misogynist monarchies and democracies around the world, that continue to debase and devalue women, even in the 21st century.

History might look very different if women had ruled Chinese Dynasties and been Emperors, while Queens were ruling European monarchies. But we can't undo history, or past ignorance, when it was believed that women were responsible for fertility, and gender of heirs. Or that females were expected to produce Armies of Men, beginning in pre-pubescent youth, little girls as little women...incubators for soldiers or workers, giving birth to multiple children, often dying in childbirth.

Modern China commands a billion-person army including their female population. Now that they're "open" to western science, medicine, culture, and capitalism....their policies are becoming less gender-oriented. Rather late to realize males aren't inherently superior, or that females are more than just "incubators"....but it's a start. Still a bit twisted, but a start.

[Loki]

China actually does forcefully sterilize men.

There were also a decent amount of European queens. Didn't really improve the situation of women though.

[GGT]

Yeah, I was just musing, imagining -- what today's world might look like if it hadn't been male-dominated for so many centuries, based on the false presumptions of female inferiority.

[Loki]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...6b2_story.html

[Dreadnaught]

Having just gotten back from The East (the hell if I was going to login from anywhere over there), I can't help but think China has seriously mis-allocated its debt-fueled investment. They could easily borrow for the social services to get around their demographic hump. Instead they have ghost cities and death-inducing bullet trains.

[RandBlade]

Bullet trains etc is a good idea. Spending on modern day infrastructure is one of the few productive things they can and should do. Not sure why you could decent trains death-inducing either though.

[Dreadnaught]

There's such a thing as overcapacity and too much infrastructure, non?

[RandBlade]

Well it's a waste of money but besides that I'm not sure what you're getting at. I don't think China can be accused of too much infrastructure either, in many ways their infrastructure is still behind ours though they're catching up fast.

[Dreadnaught]

I'm saying that I don't think infrastructure is itself good; in general wasteful infrastructure tends to be the norm so it's important to always be careful. Given what China is spending on infrastructure (plus the corruption premium), plus their reliance on government-funded infrastructure for growth, it's reasonable to ask when they are getting too far ahead of demand.

[RandBlade]

Not sure I agree. Their demand has plenty of growth potential and improved infrastructure improves that latent demand. Plus China is incredibly efficient about building it. Our Parliament has been debating for many years approving the building of a High Speed rail link between London to Birmingham and then onto Manchester and Leeds. If it gets approved it won't be ready for customers for decades. In the mean time China has simply gone ahead with building theirs and its taking just 3 years per stretch to build not 30. In much tougher conditions.

[Flixy]

In other news, dictators are much more efficient in taking decisions than democracies.

You say it like it's a good thing, but you do realise the reasons for that are not a good thing?

And dread, isn't most infrastructure in most countries government funded?

[Dreadnaught]

Yes, it is. My musing is that China's big problem (supporting an aging population) could be addressed with a better mix of spending on services and immigration while they get over their self-imposed demographic hump.