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Thread: Swiss Socialism - Guaranteed Income?

  1. #61
    Not necessarily. It depends on the child, their family situation, and where they live/work/spend. I suspect you're using survey data that says it costs ~ a million dollars to raise a child from infancy to independent adulthood in the US.

  2. #62
    So let's define poverty on the basis of each individual family!
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    So let's define poverty on the basis of each individual family!
    We already do that in the US. If you're trying to make a point in an echo chamber, it's not working very well.

  4. #64
    The idea of £30k per child is absurd. When making food fresh making a portion for 5 doesn't cost much more than a portion for 4 or 3. In fact for child-sized portions and given efficiencies food for 5 should cost less than double food for 2. Utility costs for 5 are not that much more than for 2. Housing costs don't need to be much if any higher.

    Kids are expensive but not that expensive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #65
    Rand, this is tangential and anecdotal, but it'd be interesting to know how much you've "spent" on your first child, before she's even been born.

  6. #66
    Monthly expenses:
    Food = $200 - I spend 500 a week for the 2 of us, I suspect children will be cheaper up to a certain age but probably make it up somewhat in diapers, etc.
    Clothing = $100 - I would probably agree to that my wife would not / most wife's would not.
    Toys/other = $50 - this is ok
    Healthcare = $100 - This is probably ok
    Rent (for half a room) = $200 - Not even remotely correct a studio in Geneva costs 2k + there are not much economies of scale with more rooms.
    Public Schools are ok I would not send the children to private school, I don't think there is any real justification for it in terms of quality. University is not free as far as I am aware though. Also as a middle class I would think it normal that children also have something extra on top of school like piano lessons or sports, all these cost money. Children at all age cause destruction of property which needs to be replaced.

    Your definition of not poor seems to be you can barely survive without assistance while saving on everything, it is not my definition. Not poor for me is not really caring about the the prices for your basic needs because you are certain you have enough and then some to save or spend on a few luxuries.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
    Rent (for half a room) = $200 - Not even remotely correct a studio in Geneva costs 2k + there are not much economies of scale with more rooms.
    Only Geneva and Zürich have rents like that, and only in the city. Just 30 Minutes outside of Zürich you can get a 4 room apartment for the same price tag.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Hang on, is that your budget for a US minor child, or a dependent child? You forgot Day Care, After-school Care/programs, transportation, sports equipment, educational technology, 'summer enrichment programs', musical instruments/lessons, orthodontia....I could go on.

    $200/month for food is low for a teenaged boy, while $100/month for clothing is high (even if that includes new shoes), and most families don't divide their rent/mortgage into per person portions like that.

    No, it doesn't have to cost $30,000/year to raise a child, let alone each child in a household. But their age-based needs, family income, locality, COL, and government investments (subsidies) make a huge difference in every family budget.
    He also forgot to include savings for higher education.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
    Monthly expenses:
    Food = $200 - I spend 500 a week for the 2 of us, I suspect children will be cheaper up to a certain age but probably make it up somewhat in diapers, etc.
    That number really jumped out at me. You spend roughly $500.00 a week for two people on food? Are you guys eating out every meal?

  10. #70
    Well if he eats veal every diner, this might be realistic. If you stick to pasta and rice, it is a crazy number.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  11. #71
    I don't like rice or pasta, I ate enough of that during my student years and yes I include being forced to it something you don't like because of the price tag as poor section. I can go with rice or pasta as a side dish.

    And no i specifically did not include eating out, eating out every night would cost much more a week, the average restaurants you can do about 100 for 2 persons per meal, the better restaurants will be 200 and this is on the low side since we order wine in glasses rather then bottles. Fresh meat and fish are expensive here, and if you want something like some Parma and cheese for breakfast, some fruit, it goes up. I agree that I am overpaying because I buy mostly at the butcher store in the center and the open market, I will probably realize some savings If I drive to allegro but the portions there are bigger then I need although the quality from what i hear is good, maybe when those 3 kids come along.

    Earth I am looking for an apartment or small house for rent outside Geneva and we have budgeted 4,5k and the offers are very limited in that price range let alone 2k, I am frankly not seeing much difference in price for being out of the Geneva proper (which is what we want for other reasons), you may get some difference once you get closer to Nyon and obviously it will be miles cheaper in Valley especially once you start driving up mountains. Most apartments that advertise 4-5 rooms at that price range have rooms the size of Wardrobes, perhaps I am looking in the wrong places (mainly on homegate.ch ) if you could suggest an alternative source of rental offers.

    On the other hand I expect 1/3 of the Swiss banks to shut down in the next 2 years so prices on real estate should drop and drive the rent down, but this is of dubious benefit as it will likely drive my salary down as well.
    Last edited by Asmodian; 12-04-2013 at 07:57 AM.

  12. #72
    So we now consider people poor if you can't eat your favorite dish every day? I used to think people are poor if they have trouble to get food that will be sufficient for their nutrition.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  13. #73
    yes i don't know why it is so shocking, for me it is like this:
    Extreme Poor - Can not survive without assistance
    Poor - Has sufficient income to survive, but has to be price conscious with regard to basic needs - you can call it lower middle class if it makes you feel better but does not really change the fact that these people shop for cheapest products and have close to 0 savings and are just a step away from disaster i.e. becoming extreme poor
    Middle Class - Does not have to worry about the price of basic necessities such as food, is able to put aside some portion of their income has built up some safety cushion in order to have time to recover in case of loss of income
    Upper Middle Class - Same as above but can possibly consider purchasing a house / replacing the Honda with a BMW etc. / buying an expensive watch every few years.
    Rich - Has a house, Has a sufficient savings to never drop out of the middle class in case of loss of income for 1 generation
    Extremely Rich - I don't really need to explain this i think

  14. #74
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    Nope, middle class has to budget. And does worry about the price of food and fuel. Especially heating fuel.

    The price of those two items I. The last couple of years have really bitten into my budget.
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  15. #75
    Even the rich have to budget. Remember our thread concerning the dumbass who was whining about no longer being able to afford his 2nd home?
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
    yes i don't know why it is so shocking, for me it is like this:
    It's not shocking, it's utterly stupid.
    Extreme Poor - Can not survive without assistance
    Poor - Has sufficient income to survive, but has to be price conscious with regard to basic needs - you can call it lower middle class if it makes you feel better but does not really change the fact that these people shop for cheapest products and have close to 0 savings and are just a step away from disaster i.e. becoming extreme poor
    Middle Class - Does not have to worry about the price of basic necessities such as food, is able to put aside some portion of their income has built up some safety cushion in order to have time to recover in case of loss of income
    Upper Middle Class - Same as above but can possibly consider purchasing a house / replacing the Honda with a BMW etc. / buying an expensive watch every few years.
    Rich - Has a house, Has a sufficient savings to never drop out of the middle class in case of loss of income for 1 generation
    Extremely Rich - I don't really need to explain this i think
    You can spend as much as you want on food, there is no upper limit. I can easily spend 200 for food and another 200 for drinks per meal and person if I want to. That's 12'000 per month. I get a really nice apartment for that price tag. I could easily afford the mortgage of a whole house for that and a BMW.

    If you don't care about the price tag of things, you will drop down from every class. Because there are things in this world so expensive to ruin anybody if they don't care or worry about the price tag. That includes the super rich.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  17. #77
    Daycare where I send my daughter has the (rough) prices.

    Infant (0): $1400 a month
    Toddler (1-3): $1200 a month
    Pre-School (4): $1100 a month

    1st year: $16,800
    2, 3 and 4th years: $14,400 each ($43,200 total)
    5th year: $13,200

    For the first 5 years (prior to kindergarten): $73,200

    Of course, we could find cheaper daycare if we wanted (although not significantly - perhaps 200-300 less) and there were an equal number of places more expensive. I'd say we have the middle-class daycare in the area.
    Get off my lawn
    I can live without #16 and #17

  18. #78
    Yep, Child Care can't be excluded from a US family budget, and it's not cheap. Even working-poor families using religious or charitable organizations (JCC, Catholic or Protestant churches, YMCA/YWCA) are required to "contribute" a portion of their income.

    The only exception are Head Start early-ed/pre-K programs, but those don't operate 24 hours/day....so transportation and/or secondary programs are needed by working parents, especially for shift workers. The "lucky" families have a grandparent who's healthy enough to babysit, and doesn't have to work full-time until they drop dead.

    Only the very "fortunate" have on-site Child Care at their workplace. That includes, but is not limited to, those in academia (hi, Loki) whose salaries and benefits are subsidized by state tax payers.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Yep, Child Care can't be excluded from a US family budget, and it's not cheap. Even working-poor families using religious or charitable organizations (JCC, Catholic or Protestant churches, YMCA/YWCA) are required to "contribute" a portion of their income.

    The only exception are Head Start early-ed/pre-K programs, but those don't operate 24 hours/day....so transportation and/or secondary programs are needed by working parents, especially for shift workers. The "lucky" families have a grandparent who's healthy enough to babysit, and doesn't have to work full-time until they drop dead.

    Only the very "fortunate" have on-site Child Care at their workplace. That includes, but is not limited to, those in academia (hi, Loki) whose salaries and benefits are subsidized by state tax payers.
    I'm in academia and we have child care at the college, but it's only 2-300 less than what we're paying now (I think it's around $900 a month for full time) and the quality is average at best. They also only take children who are 3+ and are potty trained, which my daughter isn't yet. It's our largest expense by far. Every month I dream about what I could be doing with that money. Sigh.
    Get off my lawn
    I can live without #16 and #17

  20. #80
    I was mostly putting holes in Loki's $8,000/year child "budget".

  21. #81
    I didn't realize that poverty meant being able to send your kids to the best child care provider and schools.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I didn't realize that poverty meant being able to send your kids to the best child care provider and schools.
    What's that got to do with your miserable $8,000/year child budget?

  23. #83
    I think the Asmo's hyperbole has distracted from his basic point - ignoring terms like 'poor' vs. 'middle class' vs. 'rich', he is indeed correct that for a number of ostensibly well-paid people they have trouble paying the bills. I think his lifestyle expectations are a bit inflated, but looking at even fairly reasonable assumptions of what your typical 2-earner urban household has in terms of expenses, and it's easy to see how it's tough to balance priorities. Housing, childcare/education, and healthcare (along with taxes) take the biggest chunk out of most of these paychecks, and it often leaves fairly small amounts for savings or luxuries (e.g. vacations).

    I'm hardly crying for people making above 90th percentile in national household income (let alone global), but those numbers come with some caveats, and it sure doesn't feel like 'rich' to these people even though, objectively, they are indeed quite well off.

    My wife and I make 1.5 professional-level salaries and by any reasonable metric would be well off - we certainly don't have to fear for the roof over our heads or our next meal, and manage to have plenty of fun in the process. Yet we definitely feel the pinch - mostly because of unreasonable housing costs where we live - and will feel it even more once daycare comes around (which, Loki, is quite pricey even for average daycare costs in the entire state). Leading a fairly healthy, responsible, productive life isn't cheap for most people.

  24. #84
    I think you'll find that someone has to be pretty damn rich to not have to make any kind of sacrifices or trade-offs. This isn't what this thread is about though.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #85
    Agreed; just wanted to qualify some of the ridicule.

  26. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I think you'll find that someone has to be pretty damn rich to not have to make any kind of sacrifices or trade-offs. This isn't what this thread is about though.
    Right. It's more about what sacrifices or trade-offs low income people "pay" with their low wages. Food insecurity, crappy school districts, crumbling infrastructure, absent police/fire or extended response times.....

  27. #87
    Thanks to other poor people who raise awful kids, and steal, sell drugs, destroy property, and kill people in those poor neighborhoods.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  28. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Thanks to other poor people who raise awful kids, and steal, sell drugs, destroy property, and kill people in those poor neighborhoods.
    And those neighborhoods are expanding and might someday engulf yours.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  29. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Food insecurity, crappy school districts, crumbling infrastructure, absent police/fire or extended response times.....
    It's not like that everywhere. Many of this problems are political.

    I think even Lewk will agree that the goverment should provide security for all people no matter how rich or poor they are.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  30. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Thanks to other poor people who raise awful kids, and steal, sell drugs, destroy property, and kill people in those poor neighborhoods.
    Wealthy people raise awful kids who do the same criminal shit, they just have better lawyers. Poverty is destructive to families and communities, but poor people shouldn't be scapegoats for everything gone wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
    It's not like that everywhere. Many of this problems are political.

    I think even Lewk will agree that the goverment should provide security for all people no matter how rich or poor they are.
    Lewk? That's debatable.

    Detroit's situation is political -- Michigan's governor and emergency manager cut millions of state tax revenue for the city....with crumbling infrastructure, no services, hour-long police response times, etc. That once thriving city didn't become blighted and bankrupt by its poor people.

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