2-4 vegetarian lunches per month in the public school system

[Aimless]

This is curious. Do you also oppose exercise in school? Apart from the terrorism, bullying etc I mean.

[LittleFuzzy]

I always hated phys-ed. Now it does serve a dual-purpose, particularly for younger kids, in that it also allows them to release some excess energy. I don't know how it is structured in Swedenistan but here it means very little in keeping kids healthy or helping to instill anything resembling good living habits.

[Ominous Gamer]

Ours consisted of regular exercise routines and team sports.

[Loki]

I wonder what song Minx would be singing if the brainwashing in question was to make the students nationalist or racist or anti-socialist.

[Lebanese Dragon]

I just want to point out that we all take part in social engineering. Teaching kids english, gender roles, the phrases we use... whether we speak in a way considered "ghetto" or we speak "proper english", are very definition of normal is indoctrination. The way an african tribe finds us strange, and we likewise find them strange.


Some of of it is social indoctrination, some is genetic I will grant that. The commonalities between societies will help identify genetic behaviors, as well as social indoctrination which is just necessary for society to function, so we can distinguish between indoctrinated qualities and genetic qualities.

My overall stance is this we have to indoctrinate our kids with what we think is best; however, to whatever degree we can leave it up to them, at the end of the day, as they approach the age of reason, of self-thought, that we just need to let them do what they want to do.

For example, when they're born we think that wearing clothes is good, hygiene is good, expressing your feeling is good, talking out problems, exercising is good, eating healthy is good, speaking English is good, knowing a lot of words is good, developing problem solving, and thinking for yourself is good, relieving stress is good we teach kids all of these things (or try to), and it's based upon our value system which to the best of our knowledge is correct, and therefore we teach it to them as fact. I think that's the best we can do, is do what we think is best for our kids, that's what we're morally called to do, and that's what we can do; however, as they mature pushing for independent thinking is the greatest duty we have to our kids. They will seek their own personal happiness, they will think of problems and solution in their own way, and create their own gospel truth. This is very important. So to an extent I agree with minx let's teach kids in schools how to eat healthy, how to count calories (We can incorporate that in math class/science class). Can have an entire chapter in a math book dedicated to solving problems with the idea of calories involved. While providing informative info, we're also solving math problems, and getting our math standards met.

In the short run, I say indoctrinate kids (we do anyway, it's the only thing we can do); however, in the long run encourage problem solving, and independence.

[Hazir]

Would you support or would you oppose a system where 2-4 publicly funded school lunches every month are required to be vegetarian meals? What would be the pros and cons?

It sounds like a useless system that would make nobody happy, the meat eaters nor the vegetarians. The vast majority of vegetarians don't want to eat meat 18 days a month. What makes much more sense is mandating a menu that contains healthy choices, both with and without meat.

[Aimless]

I wonder what song Minx would be singing if the brainwashing in question was to make the students nationalist or racist or anti-socialist.

Similarly I wonder what song you'd be singing if democratic elections and diplomacy led to genocide

[Aimless]

It sounds like a useless system that would make nobody happy, the meat eaters nor the vegetarians. The vast majority of vegetarians don't want to eat meat 18 days a month.

Er there is always a vegetarian alternative. The proposal is about removing the meat alternative 2-4 times every month.

[GGT]

...What I'm getting at is that the Swedish govt. (among many others) has, among other things, the mandate to greenify itself and its activities. In light of that fact, I wonder if the occasional vegetarian lunch may not be a more effective way to greenify govt. activities than eg. buying "ecological" meat products....

Greenify? Where does that put dairy products?

[Loki]

Similarly I wonder what song you'd be singing if democratic elections and diplomacy led to genocide

Yes, ignore the fact that enabling the institutions in such a manner is likely to eventually lead to results you do not want. Weren't you one of the people whining about the attack against evolution in Texan schools?

[Aimless]

Yes, ignore the fact that enabling the institutions in such a manner is likely to eventually lead to results you do not want. Weren't you one of the people whining about the attack against evolution in Texan schools?

*shrugs* You can always mandate that schools have to follow the standards of the scientific community when it comes to their science education.

It's almost as if you believe we have no methods for differentiating true from false, accurate from inaccurate, good from bad, etc. Do you also believe we should have no judicial system? No police to enforce laws? No government? No age-of-consent laws? No laws banning racial discrimination eg. segregation and the like? after all it's just subjective and everyone's opinion about everything is always equally valid or something or not

[Loki]

It's almost as if you don't understand that people get to decide what is good and what is bad and how those people define those terms might not be how you define them. This is perhaps the main reason you're such a statist. You seem incapable of understanding that the more power you give public institutions, the larger the incentive for people to corrupt those institutions, and make use of them in ways you do not desire. You prevent those outcomes by limiting the mandates of institutions, not grossly expanding them and then hoping that extra power doesn't get misused.

[GGT]

It's almost as if you don't understand that people get to decide what is good and what is bad and how those people define those terms might not be how you define them. This is perhaps the main reason you're such a statist.

Since when did relying on science, and professional scientists, make someone a "statist"? Do you think it's wrong to have industry regulations that protect the consumer -- like mandatory seat belts in all new cars? Yeah, people get to "decide" whether or not they use those seat belts, regardless of state laws, but it wouldn't be a "choice" if the car had no seat belts.

You seem incapable of understanding that the more power you give public institutions, the larger the incentive for people to corrupt those institutions, and make use of them in ways you do not desire. You prevent those outcomes by limiting the mandates of institutions, not grossly expanding them and then hoping that extra power doesn't get misused.

No need for that kind of language, Loki. Minx is quite "capable" of understanding complicated and complex issues, particularly when they involve science, medicine, nutrition, and public health policy. You're too busy condemning political institutions, from a soft political 'science' angle, to recognize the hard science.

[Loki]

I swear that you just put random phrases together hoping that they have some meaning, but they rarely do.

[Aimless]

It's almost as if you don't understand that people get to decide what is good and what is bad and how those people define those terms might not be how you define them. This is perhaps the main reason you're such a statist. You seem incapable of understanding that the more power you give public institutions, the larger the incentive for people to corrupt those institutions, and make use of them in ways you do not desire. You prevent those outcomes by limiting the mandates of institutions, not grossly expanding them and then hoping that extra power doesn't get misused.

Hey Loki did you know that, officially at least, racism is almost universally considered to be bad?

Did you also know that Swedish govt already has the mandate to run schools and offer free lunches at those schools?

[Loki]

I just read an article suggesting otherwise about Hungarian schools. Or is your world limited to Sweden?

[Dreadnaught]

I understand your concerns because you live in the US



While you and Fuzzy are focusing on the "social engineering" (brainwashing kids into being healthier) aspects, I see that only as a minor bonus. What I'm getting at is that the Swedish govt. (among many others) has, among other things, the mandate to greenify itself and its activities. In light of that fact, I wonder if the occasional vegetarian lunch may not be a more effective way to greenify govt. activities than eg. buying "ecological" meat products. Advertising is good, publishing useful info is good, but why should the government advertise to itself? The question was about lunches that are already paid for by the govt. with the money it's stolen from taxpayers

I must say, btw, that I find the objection to "social engineering" in the context of schools to be a little bizarre. Social engineering is what 50% of school is about. Ask Lewk

I think I can mostly accept the "social engineering" angle of this type of idea because, you're right, school is generally about social engineering in some respect. But dietary preferences tend to be something determined on an individual basis by parents and this feels a bit like crossing from teaching to compelling specific personal choices. Just a bit.

However my main issue is really the efficiency issue. Our culture has less monolithism and it wouldn't be long before people saw the extra effort being expended for vegetarians and demanded certain ethnic foods, etc.

[Hazir]

Er there is always a vegetarian alternative. The proposal is about removing the meat alternative 2-4 times every month.

So, social engineering by denial? Well, we only have like a fully century to show how useless that approach is. Do we really need another century to falsify that it doesn't work?

[GGT]

I swear that you just put random phrases together hoping that they have some meaning, but they rarely do.

I was calling you out on the "statist" comment, and confusing "choice" with science.

Did you also know that Swedish govt already has the mandate to run schools and offer free lunches at those schools?

As does the US. We must be SSSocialists for having peanut-free or shellfish-free lunch tables, or gluten-free options for kids with food allergies. Kids should "decide" for themselves, according to Loki?

[LittleFuzzy]

I was calling you out on the "statist" comment,

That was kinda obvious. And the way you did it makes it look like you've got no real idea what the concept means.

[GGT]

That was kinda obvious. And the way you did it makes it look like you've got no real idea what the concept means.

Oh please, we're talking about school children lunches, and Loki knows damn well minors aren't "the people who get to decide what's good or bad"....but parents and institutions. Parents don't have to give a crap about food science or nutrition, but states are responsible from a public health/safety standpoint, and that's not some automatic "expansion" of gov't power, or misuse and corruption as he inferred.

[Loki]

Are you now claiming that not eating meat is somehow good from a public health point of view?

[LittleFuzzy]

Oh please, we're talking about school children lunches, and Loki knows damn well minors aren't "the people who get to decide what's good or bad"....but parents and institutions. Parents don't have to give a crap about food science or nutrition, but states are responsible from a public health/safety standpoint, and that's not some automatic "expansion" of gov't power, or misuse and corruption as he inferred.

So yeah, you've got no real understanding of what "statist" means.

[GGT]

Are you now claiming that not eating meat is somehow good from a public health point of view?

That was apparently Sweden's contention, not mine.

I'm just saying our public institutions (schools, health officials, regulatory agencies) have a legitimate role, even a legal mandate, to consider what's in the Public Interest/Public Good, and be part of the decision-making process....when it comes to school lunches.

I thought your claim that "....the more power you give public institutions, the larger the incentive for people to corrupt those institutions, and make use of them in ways you do not desire. You prevent those outcomes by limiting the mandates of institutions, not grossly expanding them and then hoping that extra power doesn't get misused." was conflated and alarmist.

ie, Prohibiting soda machines in public elementary schools is quite different from a Mayor trying to "ban" the Big Gulp in a city.