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Thread: Economics, Economies, Employment, Equality, Etc.

  1. #31
    Anyone here going to Davos this week?

    http://www.nbcnews.com/business/worl...est-2D11958883

    http://money.msn.com/business-news/a...20&id=17271737

    Must be pretty tough for those 85, having to share that amount of "free speech" with each other. Just imangine what they could accomplish politically if they pooled together.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  2. #32
    I'm going to Davos to buttle and advise on various issues.

    They are farmers, I'm their pig.
    They are masters, I'm their slave.

    Who should I try and get a selfie with?

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Anyone here going to Davos this week?

    http://www.nbcnews.com/business/worl...est-2D11958883

    http://money.msn.com/business-news/a...20&id=17271737

    Must be pretty tough for those 85, having to share that amount of "free speech" with each other. Just imangine what they could accomplish politically if they pooled together.
    So why don't they do that?

    Are the E's viewed as a zero-sum game, or that balancing wealth creation and distribution is SSSocialism or Totalitarianism or Communism, or some other evil Ism? Is it fear of losing sovereign nation status--and power--replaced by some "New World Order" that conspiracy theorists bandy about?

    If the US is considered a World Leader, that could spell big trouble: our states are constantly fighting with each other, or the federal government; our elected legislators have made "compromise" a dirty word; our political parties can threaten national default, shut down the government, and play russian roulette with the USD as the world's favored currency.

    FFS, we can't even agree to "pool together" on water policies! CA has a monumental drought emergency, WV coal-washing chemicals have contaminated the Ohio River and downstream intake states, PA is using tons of water 'fracking' natural gas while contaminating aquifers at the same time, NJ is still in Sandy clean-up/rehab mode, Gulf states are still cleaning up after the BP oil disaster, and hurricanes Katrina and Rita....and the port of New Orleans still has sub-standard flood protections. Then there's the Mississippi River states dealing with damaging floods, or barges stuck in low water droughts.

    And WTF have we been doing? Cutting taxes, slashing budgets, eliminating federal programs, de-regulating, ignoring science and engineering as a public utility, and handing it over to private for-profit entities. How's that workin'?

  4. #34
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Well, if you ask certain Americans, any wealth redistribution is socialism, which, to them, is equal to communism I do agree that the partisanship, fighting, and lack of compromise is problematic. But hey, if you guys keep rewarding that behavior
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    So why don't they do that?

    Are the E's viewed as a zero-sum game, or that balancing wealth creation and distribution is SSSocialism or Totalitarianism or Communism, or some other evil Ism? Is it fear of losing sovereign nation status--and power--replaced by some "New World Order" that conspiracy theorists bandy about?

    If the US is considered a World Leader, that could spell big trouble: our states are constantly fighting with each other, or the federal government; our elected legislators have made "compromise" a dirty word; our political parties can threaten national default, shut down the government, and play russian roulette with the USD as the world's favored currency.

    FFS, we can't even agree to "pool together" on water policies! CA has a monumental drought emergency, WV coal-washing chemicals have contaminated the Ohio River and downstream intake states, PA is using tons of water 'fracking' natural gas while contaminating aquifers at the same time, NJ is still in Sandy clean-up/rehab mode, Gulf states are still cleaning up after the BP oil disaster, and hurricanes Katrina and Rita....and the port of New Orleans still has sub-standard flood protections. Then there's the Mississippi River states dealing with damaging floods, or barges stuck in low water droughts.

    And WTF have we been doing? Cutting taxes, slashing budgets, eliminating federal programs, de-regulating, ignoring science and engineering as a public utility, and handing it over to private for-profit entities. How's that workin'?
    You are all over the map. Focus.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Well, if you ask certain Americans, any wealth redistribution is socialism, which, to them, is equal to communism I do agree that the partisanship, fighting, and lack of compromise is problematic. But hey, if you guys keep rewarding that behavior
    If you want more of something subsidize it. If you want less of something tax it.

    Taxing hard work and ingenuity therefore causes...

    Subsidizing laziness and poor decision making therefore causes...

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    If you want more of something subsidize it. If you want less of something tax it.

    Taxing hard work and ingenuity therefore causes...

    Subsidizing laziness and poor decision making therefore causes...
    I may be "all over the map", but you're too simplistic on broad and important issues.

    We have subsidized certain industries (and corporations) for decades, from oil to banks to military, using tax dollars and public policies. We've also subsidized crucial public services, from education to healthcare to infrastructure, using the same 'tools'.

    Yes, of course, our society and culture got "more", and our national economy grew for generations! People moved out of poverty (and illiteracy) into the middle class, *with good educations, decent job wages, and future career prospects*. Quality of life improved dramatically for everyone, but seniors/disabled/infants and children in particular....which decreased mortality and increased longevity. That's proof that the relationship between people and its government, via taxes and policies, can be a Win/Win scenario.

    However, when political power is consolidated/concentrated by wealth, and wealth itself has become so skewed....balance and equilibrium no longer comes from "the center". Why do you think we created anti-monopoly legislation in the first place?

  8. #38
    Post hoc ergo propter hoc...
    Hope is the denial of reality

  9. #39
    Translate "Bite Me" into Latin.

  10. #40
    Translate "stop committing every fallacy known to man just to support your weak arguments" into English.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Translate "stop committing every fallacy known to man just to support your weak arguments" into English.
    My only "argument" here is that people (indeed, entire nations) are faced with defining Economy, Employment, Equality...with inherent conflicts from powerful and influential sources like academia, politics, media, culture, etc. Plenty of "fallacies" and propaganda to go around.

    The Reagan Era "argued" that government IS the problem, and that Trickle Down Economics (de-regulation, corporatism) was the solution. The meme was more successful than the policy. Even after "Free Markets" were exposed as crappy self-regulators....and dangerous enough to take down the entire global economy a few notches....some people still cling to that ideology. Why is that?

    Why do people...or political parties....continue to support the failed parts of their agenda?
    Why is it "easier" to focus on division instead of unification?
    How did the United States of America come to be such a loaded term (and loathed principle) that politicians use "states rights" in their campaign propaganda...even when running for national office?
    Why should other nations look to the US as a global "leader" when we can't manage our own domestic affairs?

    I'm just asking questions, and hoping people will explain how they arrive at their answers.

  12. #42
    Oh, I made the mistake of melding Lewk's posts from the Welfare thread. Second attempt at clarity and focus, regarding wealth distribution and 'rewarding behavior' in the economy:


    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    If you want more of something subsidize it. If you want less of something tax it.

    Taxing hard work and ingenuity therefore causes...

    Subsidizing laziness and poor decision making therefore causes...
    *We want less unemployment and poverty*. That obviously can't be achieved by taxing the unemployed or poor, using your simplistic prescription. So, you re-define terms using your own subjective, moral judgements -- jobless and poor people are lazy or stupid.

    That's trying to make this about individual character failures, instead of macro-economic realities and failures. That way, in your mind, everyone who needs 'subsidies' are "moochers, takers, slackers" that can't get off their lazy butts, or pull themselves up by their bootstraps. (Rather like Romney's "47%" comment that was totally off base.) That lets you feel justified in punishing people, by defunding public programs, as if it's just another form of taxing and incentivizing behavior.

  13. #43
    GGT do you think some people are poor due to poor decision making? Do you think some people are poor due to laziness? If so - what percentage would you say is the case?

  14. #44
    Haven't you been warned before about assuming such things? to try and research it before spouting off random numbers?

    but hey, maybe you're coming around. A question, even sarcastically, is better than flat out claiming something without a source like you have been doing for the past couple of years.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    GGT do you think some people are poor due to poor decision making? Do you think some people are poor due to laziness? If so - what percentage would you say is the case?
    I'd say focusing on that percent of people, when making public policy, is lazy thinking and poor decision making.

    You begin by making unfounded presumptions about poor people, or anything related to poverty....and work backward, to make policy solutions fit your biases. When the realities don't match your presumptions, you switch-up terminology -- poverty doesn't even exist in the US, because it's not like third-world poverty, and most Americans have indoor plumbing and cell phones! And we can't possibly have a Food security crisis, because look at all the restaurants and grocery stores, and fat people!

    Your "philosophy" is even more muddled when it comes to Education. If you want a smarter population, please explain how de-funding public schools, or school nutritional programs, is "wise" policy.

  16. #46
    Lewk, what's your opinion on expanding Earned Income Tax Credits to unmarried people? It's supported by some Republicans because it's a perk for "workers". But it can mean they don't pay any federal income tax, or will get extra money back, which makes them part of Romney's derided "47%". It's also a wage subsidy for low-income/working poor, those lazy, stupid people with jobs.

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