Millions of Tons of Water Ice found at Moon's Pole

[Wraith]

A moon probe has found millions of tons of water on the moon’s north pole, NASA reported Monday. The vast source of water could one day be used to generate oxygen or sustain a moon base.

A NASA radar aboard India’s Chandrayaan-I lunar orbiter found 40 craters, ranging in size from 1 to 9 miles across, with pockets of ice. Scientists estimate at least 600 million tons of ice could be entombed in these craters.

The radar, called the Mini-SAR, sends pulses of left-polarized radio waves out to measure the surface roughness of the moon. While smooth surfaces send back a reversed, right-polarized wave, rough areas return left-polarized waves.

Ice, which is transparent to radio waves, also sends back left-polarized waves. The Mini-SAR measures the ratio of left to right circular polarized power sent back, or the circular polarized ratio (CPR). However, a high CPR alone can’t distinguish between rough patches and regions with ice.

The north pole craters had a high CPR on the inside, with a low CPR on the edges. That suggests a material enclosed in the craters, rather than surface roughness, caused the high CPR signal.

According to NASA, the ice would have to be relatively pure ice and at least several feet thick to give this signature.

In November, NASA crashed a probe into the Cabeus crater near the moon’s south pole and also found evidence of water.

Source



Alright, we've got water at both poles. Let's get colonizing!

[Supermarioman]

yes yes yes yes yes yes

[agamemnus]

As long as we don't crash the moon into the earth, I'm all for colonization.

[Hazir]

What's taking us so long?

[Wraith]

What's taking us so long?

The cost compared to what we spend in other spheres is actually pretty damn reasonable, so I can't buy that that's it. The real reason, I think, is that too many people think ideas like "colonizing the moon" or "building a space elevator" sound silly.

[Dreadnaught]

The cost compared to what we spend in other spheres is actually pretty damn reasonable, so I can't buy that that's it. The real reason, I think, is that too many people think ideas like "colonizing the moon" or "building a space elevator" sound silly.

Well and what about the politics? Who controls how much land? How is it regulated, etc?

[Bitter Jeweler]

Colonizing the moon sounds silly.

[ar81]

Colonizing the moon sounds silly.

You have an airless environment, sand is sharp and corrosive for mechanisms, and you are exposed to meteors falling upon your head and direct sun radiation.
Hmm, it does not sound so silly...

"building a space elevator" sound silly.

Space elevators can't be built unless you use unobtanium, due to the strong forces involved.

Space elevator

Current technology is not capable of manufacturing practical engineering materials that are sufficiently strong and light to build an Earth-based space elevator.

Still CNN reports it is "possible"...

'Space elevator' would take humans into orbit

Association spokesman Akira Tsuchida said his organization was working with U.S.-based Spaceward Foundation and a European organization based in Luxembourg to develop an elevator design.

The Liftport Group in the U.S. is also working on developing a design, and in total it's believed that more than 300 scientists and engineers are engaged in such work around the globe.

[EyeKhan]

As long as we don't crash the moon into the earth, I'm all for colonization.

We can't move the moon. Its too damn big. Yet, anyway. heh

What's taking us so long?

Nobody cares. We're too busy squabbling over oil and the Money. Humanity has no long term vision beyond A. how am I going to feed myself and my family or B. How am I going to stay rich.

The cost compared to what we spend in other spheres is actually pretty damn reasonable, so I can't buy that that's it. The real reason, I think, is that too many people think ideas like "colonizing the moon" or "building a space elevator" sound silly.

It's not just that - it's "why?" It's "my little sister got bit bay a rat and Whitey's on the Moon."

Colonizing the moon sounds silly.

I wouldn't want to live there. Probably a cool place to visit though. Gravity's low enough you could strap on wings and fly given a large enough enclosure. Who wouldn't think that was fun?

[Nessus]

I wouldn't want to live there. Probably a cool place to visit though. Gravity's low enough you could strap on wings and fly given a large enough enclosure. Who wouldn't think that was fun?

Are you shitposting again? I can't tell

[EyeKhan]

We're going to need He3 at about the same time that we manage to get something started on the moon. Even without that, the moon also works as a great solar power collector. Drop a bunch of panels down (they can be constructed entirely on the moon from the resources there) and beam the energy back to earth with microwaves.

More likely we'd build orbital satellite components on the Moon and launch from there to orbit the Earth in a position they can be lit more or less 24/7. The moon's got a 14 day night so that's an awful lot of down time for your very very expensive electricity generating equipment.

And China? I bet they will make a factory there before they build a base. Products will read "Made on the moon"...

I know you're joking, but consider the novelty marketing potential.... Some day. Not in our life time, but some day. Maybe.

Digging a patch of lunar surface roughly three-quarters of a square mile to a depth of about 9 ft. should yield about 220 pounds of helium-3--enough to power a city the size of Dallas or Detroit for a year.

Except that we don't yet know how to make electricity by fusing He3. How many chickens we got in them thar eggs? Dunno, they ain't hatched yet.

Are you shitposting again? I can't tell

Flying on the moon? Read about it somewhere in some Popular Mechanics style futurism bull shit article. If you consider you'll weight 1/6 there but have the same muscle power you earned down here, why would you not be able to flap a set of wings and take off? Its worth a try at least, no?

With all that water, someone's going to make a swimming pool eventually. Imagine the splash you'll make with your precision cannon ball.

[Nessus]

Flying on the moon? Read about it somewhere in some Popular Mechanics style futurism bull shit article. If you consider you'll weight 1/6 th there but have the same muscle power you earned down here, why would you not be able to flap a set of wings and take off? Its worth a try at least, no?

There's...There's no atmosphere on Luna

[Wraith]

More likely we'd build orbital satellite components on the Moon and launch from there to orbit the Earth in a position they can be lit more or less 24/7. The moon's got a 14 day night so that's an awful lot of down time for your very very expensive electricity generating equipment.

The long night is not uniform. There are places on the moon near the poles that never see night (excluding lunar eclipses). We can do it either way though, but I suspect that we can fully automate the construction of solar farms, which would make it cheaper and easier just to build it all on the moon.

[ar81]

I know you're joking, but consider the novelty marketing potential.... Some day. Not in our life time, but some day. Maybe.

Perhaps they could open a convenience store with cheap products for alien spacecraft...

Flying on the moon? Read about it somewhere in some Popular Mechanics style futurism bull shit article. If you consider you'll weight 1/6 there but have the same muscle power you earned down here, why would you not be able to flap a set of wings and take off? Its worth a try at least, no?

If you jump from a certain altitude, you may get killed. It has less gravity, but it does not mean you float away.
Certainly your jumps would get you higher, but still there will be limits.

By "large enclosure" I mean a big dome or large underground chamber.

It should be underground. Surface is exposed to meteors.

[Wraith]

Mere annoyances. First come, first serve, I say.

I think there's some international agreements in place already, but I'm not sure it covers colonization. Moon-land should probably go to whoever is the first to make a substantive improvement, with some space around it. It's not like it's going to be getting crowded up there any time soon, though.

[Supermarioman]

Mere annoyances. First come, first serve, I say.

I think there's some international agreements in place already, but I'm not sure it covers colonization. Moon-land should probably go to whoever is the first to make a substantive improvement, with some space around it. It's not like it's going to be getting crowded up there any time soon, though.

Actually, this brings up another big point.
After the Moon, how will we regulate colonizing open space, such as Lagrange points?

[Dreadnaught]

Yeah, but in a place like that, aren't only certain parts really useful?

Come to think of it...I can't decide of the best approach is a wild west free for all or some kind of regulated international system.

[Nessus]

Yeah, but in a place like that, aren't only certain parts really useful?

Come to think of it...I can't decide of the best approach is a wild west free for all or some kind of regulated international system.

You know what this would lead to

Jihad from the Moon

From the fraking Moon, man!

!

[Wraith]

Yeah, but in a place like that, aren't only certain parts really useful?

Come to think of it...I can't decide of the best approach is a wild west free for all or some kind of regulated international system.

Certain places are more useful than others, like the poles, or anything around a lava tube if they can find one, but the general areas we're looking at are still pretty large. The peaks of eternal light might be a bit more valuable due to their relatively small size.

Right now, only NASA is really capable of pulling something like this off - though I'd rather see any colonization mission be a joint NASA-ESA venture. The russians are probably the only other guys who stand a serious chance. The ESA would be the darkhorse, but they're rapidly catching up to NASA.

If we try to wait for a regulated international system, this won't happen in our lifetimes. It's in the interests of every country who isn't the USA or her allies to dig their heels in and stall, so the only way to stop that is to make massive concessions to them. I think it's probably going to wind up a wild west free for all by default, but I think the best system would be one where the land goes to the first to improve it. So you wouldn't just be able to plant a flag and call it yours, you'd have to make substantial improvements on the land first - things that make the land more valuable than it was when you found it - building a habitat or planting a field of solar panels, for instance.

[Ziggy Stardust]

With the clever use of flags of course.

[Timbuk2]

It'd end up being treated in much the same way as the Antarctic I'd imagine.

The Antarctic Treaty of 1959 could very well apply to colonisation of the moon.

Swap Antarctica for the moon as I've done here, and it's all relevant, and noble in its intent:

Article I
[The moon for peaceful purposes only]

1. The moon shall be used for peaceful purposes only. There shall be prohibited, inter alia, any measures of a military nature, such as the establishment of military bases and fortifications, the carrying out of military maneuvers, as well as the testing of any type of weapons.

2. The present Treaty shall not prevent the use of military personnel or equipment for scientific research or for any other peaceful purposes.


Article II
[freedom of scientific investigation to continue]

Freedom of scientific investigation on the moon and cooperation toward that end, as applied during the International Geophysical Year, shall continue, subject to the provisions of the present Treaty.


Article III
[plans and results to be exchanged]

1. In order to promote international cooperation in scientific investigation on the moon, as provided for in Article II of the present Treaty, the Contracting Parties agree that, to the greatest extent feasible and practicable:

(a) information regarding plans for scientific programs on the moon shall be exchanged to permit maximum economy and efficiency of operations;

(b) scientific personnel shall be exchanged on the moon between expeditions and stations;

(c) scientific observations and results from the moon shall be exchanged and made freely available.

2. In implementing this Article, every encouragement shall be given to the establishment of cooperative working relations with those Specialized Agencies of the United Nations and other international organizations having a scientific or technical interest on the moon.


Article IV
[territorial claims]

1. Nothing contained in the present Treaty shall be interpreted as:

(a) a renunciation by any Contracting Party of previously asserted rights of or claims to territorial sovereignty on the moon;

(b) a renunciation or diminution by any Contracting Party of any basis of claim to territorial sovereignty on the moon which it may have whether as a result of its activities or those of its nationals on the moon, or otherwise;

(c) prejudicing the position of any Contracting Party as regards its recognition or nonrecognition of any other State's right of or claim or basis of claim to territorial sovereignty on the moon.

2. No acts or activities taking place while the present Treaty is in force shall constitute a basis for asserting, supporting or denying a claim to territorial sovereignty on the moon. No new claim, or enlargement of an existing claim, to territorial sovereignty shall be asserted while the present Treaty is in force.

~

And there are ten further articles in the Antarctic treaty of varying relevance.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Space is the ultimate high-ground:
Better that we -the west as represented by the US, EU or various other western countries- get it than that the Chinese or god forbid the arabs get it.
So screw international order, grab what you can and deny access to the rest.

[Timbuk2]

Crazy Ivan, thinking like a QUICK COLONISE EVERYTHING GRAB GRAB GRAB GREED GREED GREED colonisation-era European Superpower since 1997.

[Ziggy Stardust]

And once we grabbed the moon ... we build a fence around it!

With watchtowers.

[Timbuk2]

Who's "we" schnookums?

[Dreadnaught]

Right now, only NASA is really capable of pulling something like this off - though I'd rather see any colonization mission be a joint NASA-ESA venture. The russians are probably the only other guys who stand a serious chance. The ESA would be the darkhorse, but they're rapidly catching up to NASA.

What about Chinaaaa?

It'd end up being treated in much the same way as the Antarctic I'd imagine.

The Antarctic Treaty of 1959 could very well apply to colonisation of the moon.

Unless I missed it because it's 7:45AM and I'm skimming...what about resource mining? After all, that's why we really want the moon...

[Timbuk2]

Unless I missed it because it's 7:45AM and I'm skimming...what about resource mining? After all, that's why we really want the moon...

Mineral rights addressed by an adjunct to the above Treaty:

Article 7 of the Protocol on Environmental Protection to the Antarctic Treaty states that "Any activity relating to mineral resources, other than scientific research, shall be prohibited."
This provision contrasts with the rejected Convention on the Regulation of Antarctic Mineral Resource Activities, which would have allowed mining under the control and taxation of an international managing body similar to the International Seabed Authority.

Rather surprisingly.

~

Agreed, Dread. If valuable minerals are discovered on the moon, I'd expect that to be the driving force behind any colonisation efforts.

aka PROFITSSSS

[Illusions]

Actually, this brings up another big point.
After the Moon, how will we regulate colonizing open space, such as Lagrange points?

I think there would be plenty of space to go around for a while...

What about Chinaaaa?

I'm already envisioning the propaganda over embellishing their role in any such effort...

[ar81]

What about Chinaaaa?
Unless I missed it because it's 7:45AM and I'm skimming...what about resource mining? After all, that's why we really want the moon...

And China? I bet they will make a factory there before they build a base. Products will read "Made on the moon"...

Popular mechanics: Mining the moon

Not unless we have some use for Helium 3. Which we don't. Yet.

Digging a patch of lunar surface roughly three-quarters of a square mile to a depth of about 9 ft. should yield about 220 pounds of helium-3--enough to power a city the size of Dallas or Detroit for a year.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Who's "we" schnookums?

The Dutch. We be good at colonising. Then you Brits can kick our ass of the moon. Then Americans can kick your ass of the moon nicking all the shit we (Dutch/Brits) built up there.

Then Holywood will make a movie how the Americans single-handedly colonised the moon.