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Thread: General discussion about efficient laundry

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    It's funny that she has problems putting jeans and towels together, but no problems throwing dirty laundry in with the clean.
    What?

  2. #32
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    I understood what you and Hazir were trying to say....but I think it's total crap. If I have a slightly soiled item, it can get washed (thoroughly cleaned) just as well by adding it to a load already in progress, without needing a new, dedicated load.
    No, it can't get washed as well. The detergents need time. Or did you think someone rolled a dice when determining how long each part of the washing cycle should take? According to your "logic", 10 minutes of washing is as good as 50 minutes.

    By the way, Denim is cotton. Just differently woven.

    Let me show you an experiment: I want to produce gunpowder cotton. For that, I have to stir some cotton for 10 minutes in nitric acid. However, after 8 minutes I notice that I have forgotton a cotton ball and add it to the mix.

    Do you think that the cotton ball I added last will be converted fully to gunpowder cotton, just like the others?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    No, it can't get washed as well. The detergents need time. Or did you think someone rolled a dice when determining how long each part of the washing cycle should take? According to your "logic", 10 minutes of washing is as good as 50 minutes.

    By the way, Denim is cotton. Just differently woven.

    Let me show you an experiment: I want to produce gunpowder cotton. For that, I have to stir some cotton for 10 minutes in nitric acid. However, after 8 minutes I notice that I have forgotton a cotton ball and add it to the mix.

    Do you think that the cotton ball I added last will be converted fully to gunpowder cotton?
    In other words, you're not interested in evaluating washing machines from an industry or consumer perspective. You'd rather give lectures in order to prove your expertise in chemistry or physics.

    Adding an item during the first few minutes of a wash cycle doesn't negate detergent or machine capabilities to clean. I've also interrupted early wash cycles to add glasses, plates, and utensils in my dishwasher. Do you have scorn for that, too?
    Last edited by GGT; 03-20-2014 at 11:24 PM.

  4. #34
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    What kind of moronic statement is that?

    And I'll note that, once again, you didn't answer the questions. Two of them this time.

    My dear, there's no grand conspiracy of the industry. Sometimes a batshit-insane stupid idea is just that: a stupid idea.

    And no, "we always did it that way" doesn't count as an excuse. Never did.

    Again, the question remains: What exactly do you think the time for a washing cycle is for? Do you really think that time is chosen by the roll of a dice?

    Regarding your ninja-edit: No, "the first minutes" is NOT "mid-cycle". Unless 30 minutes are now the same as 2 minutes. I note that you obviously now try to back-pedal frantically. You have a track record of suddenly stating that you didn't say what you indeed did say.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    What kind of moronic statement is that?

    And I'll note that, once again, you didn't answer the questions. Two of them this time.

    My dear, there's no grand conspiracy of the industry. Sometimes a batshit-insane stupid idea is just that: a stupid idea.

    And no, "we always did it that way" doesn't count as an excuse. Never did.

    Again, the question remains: What exactly do you think the time for a washing cycle is for? Do you really think that time is chosen by the roll of a dice?
    Would you consider your jeans to be less clean if they're added after the first two minutes of a full washing cycle? Are they less clean if added to a load of bath towels? Or do you think those bath towels are now "contaminated" by adding a pair of jeans? If you're not doing the laundry yourself, how can you trust any laundry item to be thoroughly "cleaned"...including that cloth napkin at your favorite restaurant, or bedsheets or towels in your hotel?

    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but hotels/motels routinely wash and re-use sheets and bath linens soiled with vomit, urine, feces, and blood.....and every private home you've ever slept or showered in does the same.

    I've focused my complaints on industry standards that pose as water/energy savings, but only restrict home users by treating them like morons. What are you doing?

  6. #36
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    My, dear, AGAIN: "Mid-cycle" is NOT "first 2 minutes".

    The "first two minutes" is NOT what we were talking about that, you know that, so stop acting like a brain-amputated moron.

    And, by the way, my modern, efficient machine allows me to add stuff within the first minutes. So, there goes that particular argument of yours, flying out of the window.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  7. #37
    Khen, have you ever used a top-load washing machine? It seems you haven't, and don't understand why they're still popular and widely used in the US. Front-load machines weren't readily available for retail/home-use until early '00s, and their energy efficiency was a selling point (despite high costs compared to top-loaders). Since then, manufacturers have improved top-load efficiency by tweaking mechanics and engineering to compete with front-load machines....while still offering consumers the features they liked in top-load design:

    They can fit behind closet doors, since the lid doesn't need to be kept open to avoid horrible odors.
    They're ergonomic (back-friendly) without needing extra costs of raised pedestal bases.
    Water fills the tub while the lid is open, giving the user more choices of detergent types, water temps, load size, etc.
    Wash cycles can be interrupted for any reason without completely emptying a whole tub of water just to open the door.

    At least that's how top-load machines worked up until the last few years....when manufacturers added an automatic default that drained the tub, even if it was during the first two minutes, or mid-cycle, or after any cycle re-set. That's not an energy efficient or water-saving "feature".

    It doesn't matter how you think people should do laundry....what matters is how people actually do laundry, and what they expect from their appliances. I don't need to be lectured about my 'housekeeping habits' or energy conservation, whether it's by you (or Hazir). I have a particular objection to the appliance manufacturing industry adopting new top-load "standards" that actually *wastes water*.

  8. #38
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    If the way people do laundry is stupid because they don't understand how it actually works, then I have no problems at all with manufacturers closing this loophole.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    If the way people do laundry is stupid because they don't understand how it actually works, then I have no problems at all with manufacturers closing this loophole.
    And you could wash a single pair of socks in your efficient, modern machine if you wanted to, even though it'd be a waste of water and electricity.

    You assume they closed a loop-hole, or changed user behavior -- but that would only apply to commercial laundromats or coin-operated machines -- where changing cycles or opening the lid would dump all the water, and require more money to start again. Home use is very different. Even though homeowners pay water/electric bills directly, they're not feeding coins into slots, and expect a certain degree of "convenience" at home. And since the new top-loads do use less water than older models, some people may not even mind if they use an extra 10 gallons....in order to use the machine the way they want.

    I'd like to see you advocate for the manufacturers....and explain why adding the water-dump function on new top-loads models was such a bright idea.

    *It can't be for water conservation, since it wastes water by default.
    *There aren't structural reasons, since water doesn't gush up and out the top, and all over the floor, if you open the lid.
    *There isn't a safety concern like front loaders, where little kids might crawl into an open door to hide, and get caught in a filling tub.

    Go ahead, make their case....without being condescending or insulting to the consumer you want to buy your product.


    <I'll give you a running start: one manufacturer's explanation is related to digital touch buttons: holding for 1-3 seconds will pause/stop/resume; holding for 4 seconds or more resets/empties/recycles. And there's no visual display or sound to assist the user. ie, poor design, big mistake.>
    Last edited by GGT; 03-24-2014 at 05:31 AM.

  10. #40
    Hang on, if you have to add things mid-cycle, and the machine empties the tub so you can do that, doesn't it make sense for it to start over from the beginning, ie. a new cycle? That way, problems associated with putting poop with your laundry are mitigated as much as poop can be mitigated.

    If you're even somewhat sensible and don't have a ridiculous TV-show parody of a household you can probably avoid surprises that necessitate mid-cycle interruptions by only washing late in the evening or early in the morning when people are or have been sleeping and the teenagers are safely drugged. That way there will be relatively few occasions on which you'll have to interrupt your laundry. The total water waste will be low (spread out over hundreds of cycles) and your hygiene-issues will be avoided at a low cost.

    I can readily concede that top-loaders may have various advantages but this mid-cycle washing nonsense does not strike me as being one possible advantage.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  11. #41
    It's a distinction without a difference. I can either add or remove something like a dinner napkin, at the beginning or latter stages of washing or rinsing. If it's just a mustard swipe....it won't "contaminate" the whole load if added at the last minutes of washing. And it won't mean that napkin can't be "cleaned" if added at late wash cycles.

    Maybe I don't want to wait for another load to wash that napkin with a little mustard swipe. Maybe I want to throw it in at the last stages of washing, when things are already clean but simply need rinsing. Maybe I did a little spot-cleaning first, and just want to throw it into the machine to get a good rinsing, or take advantage of the spin cycle, in order to shorten the air-drying process.

    The point is....I don't want a washing machine that treats me Khen does. Too stupid or moronic (etc) to figure out my own laundry needs, or energy costs.

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    snip
    I can readily concede that top-loaders may have various advantages but this mid-cycle washing nonsense does not strike me as being one possible advantage.
    If you're washing jeans or towels at 10 pm, and your baby's sheets get soiled with urine....do you really want to wait until the next load? Or do you want to throw those crib sheets (and baby clothes) in with a load already in progress?

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    If you're washing jeans or towels at 10 pm, and your baby's sheets get soiled with urine....do you really want to wait until the next load? Or do you want to throw those crib sheets (and baby clothes) in with a load already in progress?
    How many babies do you have right now that wet their beds at 10 PM when you're up doing laundry and happen to check on them and they aren't wearing diapers? 1? 10? How often do they do it? Work out the numbers and you may find that these machines are still more efficient when you look at usage over a long time ie. over hundreds of cycles. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish wrt laundry.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    How many babies do you have right now that wet their beds at 10 PM when you're up doing laundry and happen to check on them and they aren't wearing diapers? 1? 10? How often do they do it? Work out the numbers and you may find that these machines are still more efficient when you look at usage over a long time ie. over hundreds of cycles. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish wrt laundry.
    I've never said today's machines aren't designed to be more "efficient", by using less water or electricity per load than older units, whether top or front load. To be clear...I'm criticizing new top-load machines that force the user to waste water/electricity because of design flaws.

    I don't have babies, bed-wetting toddlers, or adolescent athletes any longer...but I still have dirty laundry and needed a washing machine. I *wanted* a top-load that was ergonomic, 'energy efficient', and affordable. Sorry, but I didn't want to fork out $800-$1,000 for a new machine that comes with design flaws, and wouldn't "let" me make my own laundry decisions. If I *wanted* to wash laundry that way....I could collect dirty clothes, and drive them to a coin-operated laundromat.


    PS, I look forward to your ideas regarding 10pm laundry after your first child arrives.

  15. #45
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Again, it's not a design flaw, you're just doing stupid things.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  16. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Again, it's not a design flaw, you're just doing stupid things.
    No, it's a design flaw. Complaints aren't just from users....but also retail sellers/distributors. Independent service technicians aren't complaining so much.

  17. #47
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Yeah, yeah. For those complaints we only have your word.

    And pardon me if I take your word with a huge grain of salt, given how completely unhinged from reality you have shown yourself to be.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  18. #48
    Khen, you don't have to consider my complaints, or 'take my word' on anything....even though I did a lot of comparison research when looking for a washing machine. I'm not obligated to prove my opinion (about new appliances) since you refuse to recognize US industry flaws, and want to rant about user "idiocy" instead.

    What's your motivation? What do you gain by calling me stupid....for not wanting to spend $1,000 for a new machine that dumps water indiscriminately, instead of criticizing manufacturer defaults?

  19. #49
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Of course you have to prove your opinion is worthwhile.

    We have this saying over here: "Every asshole has an opinion."

    Opinions are worthless without actual reasoning based on facts behind them. And I "don't refuse to recognize flaws". I've considered your statements and found them wanting. Completely different beast.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  20. #50
    OK, but you can't use my personal opinions to dismiss industry-wide complaints.

    In other words....US appliance distributors, retail sellers, and repair/maintenance providers acknowledge the same complaints I've made as a consumer. You can't counter that by just calling everyone/anyone an asshole.
    Last edited by GGT; 03-30-2014 at 07:47 PM.

  21. #51
    I've been trying to find the torrent of complaints from users about this business with emptying the tub for mid-cycle sock-additions and I have to admit it's proving to be very difficult.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  22. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    I've never said today's machines aren't designed to be more "efficient", by using less water or electricity per load than older units, whether top or front load. To be clear...I'm criticizing new top-load machines that force the user to waste water/electricity because of design flaws.

    I don't have babies, bed-wetting toddlers, or adolescent athletes any longer...but I still have dirty laundry and needed a washing machine. I *wanted* a top-load that was ergonomic, 'energy efficient', and affordable. Sorry, but I didn't want to fork out $800-$1,000 for a new machine that comes with design flaws, and wouldn't "let" me make my own laundry decisions. If I *wanted* to wash laundry that way....I could collect dirty clothes, and drive them to a coin-operated laundromat.


    PS, I look forward to your ideas regarding 10pm laundry after your first child arrives.
    Oh for god's sake just compare the statistics over the course of two different machines' life cycles rather than obsessing about that night you had a brain-fart and just HAD to add that extra sock.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  23. #53
    Pretend you're trying to buy a washing machine in the US. Go through the steps. Read consumer reports and ratings, look at appliance *star ratings*, and compare results. Your 'homework' should show common complaints about the lock-out/dump water default in top-load machines from the consumer aspect. If it doesn't, you're likely looking at manufacturer specs, and a certain degree of industry propaganda.

  24. #54
    Man I'd be happy if you could show it on a google search
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  25. #55
    Is a Google search your "default" for buying a laundry appliance? How's that work?

  26. #56
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Well, enlighten us and link to those common complaints? You're saying you've seen them, surely you know where to look and don't have to Google like us.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  27. #57
    Complaints can be found at distributor, retail, service/maintenance, and consumer level web sites. That's why I haven't given ONE source to support my opinion. Anyone can "pretend" to be a US consumer, surf the web for washing machines...and get the same results that I did.

    But the same incentive isn't there if you're not buying, or using, a washing machine in the USA. It's easier and simpler to declare "European technology" is superior to human (American) use, as if the machines have an innate ability to be the "laundry police".

  28. #58
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    You're the one claiming the complaints are all over, why ding you just link to a few? I don't know what us retailers, distributors, etc are. Please enlighten us with some links.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  29. #59
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Well, GGT, it's your duty to show us those reports. It's your argument and I'll be arsed if I'm doing your work for you.

    Either put up or shut up.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  30. #60
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Ok, I actually did take the trouble, an article summarising the most common complaints. They list:

    What people hate (according to Viewpoint reviews):
    Mold and mildew on rubber seal
    A sour smell after doing a wash
    Water leakage
    Constant maintenance, requiring repairs or new machines parts

    Nothing about stopping mid cycle. And 2 of the complaints seem straight shoddy manufacturing, which seems more of a brand than general design thing.

    Oh, and the consumer site also mentions:

    With every load of laundry done in a HE machine, energy savings are estimated to be between 50 and 60 percent over a traditional washer.

    So even if you stop mid cycle every other time and start over you're better off.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

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